Baseball Season 2006

[thedude110]

Thats the one reason Ortiz might never be MVP, he cant run and aside from hitting a long ball in the clutch he really has no other important value in how the team performs. I would pick Manny as MVP over Ortiz.

Have you seen Manny run the bases? He thinks ground balls between short and third should be triples.

Baffled at your statement on Ortiz. A brief list of slow MVPs:

Mo Vaughn, latter day Barry Bonds, Ivan Rodriguez, Frank Thomas (consecutive years, no less), Jeff Bagwell. And this only goes back 13 years.

Very few players are as valuabe to their team as Ortiz is to the Red Sox. He leads MLB in HR and RBI (by 6 RBI, too) and he has an OBP of .400 (pretty good for someone who "only hits a long ball in the clutch").

It's a disgrace that voters are too foolish to vote for a DH if that DH is truly deserving. One of the best hitters of his generation, certainly the best clutch hitter in his generation, and he's likely to retire without an MVP.

 

[IJ Reilly]

And Larry Walker beating out Mike Piazza (who had maybe the greatest hitting performance by any catcher ever) in 1997 still burns me up.

Rightly or not, Piazza has always been dinged for mediocre defensive performance. But you're right, the MVP award is about a relevant as the all star team voting. It's a popularity contest.

 

[MacNut]

There is a lot of dust in Fenway after all that sweeping the Yankees did. The place needed a good cleaning anyways.

 

[Kwyjibo]

Rightly or not, Piazza has always been dinged for mediocre defensive performance. But you're right, the MVP award is about a relevant as the all star team voting. It's a popularity contest.

I don't think that comparison is fair. I think in general the MVP voters are much more accurate and closer to the actual person who deserves it. Maybe they don't get it right 100%, but I think in general they do. I think the same for cy young winner, my only problem is when they use different criteria between the leagues (like wins count tons in the AL voting, but not in the NL voting as much)

 

[IJ Reilly]

I don't think that comparison is fair. I think in general the MVP voters are much more accurate and closer to the actual person who deserves it. Maybe they don't get it right 100%, but I think in general they do. I think the same for cy young winner, my only problem is when they use different criteria between the leagues (like wins count tons in the AL voting, but not in the NL voting as much)

You see, that's my problem with these criteria. Wins should not be considered at all. It takes a great pitcher with the misfortune of playing for a lousy team right out consideration. Wins are highly dependent on the team's offensive abilities, the quality of the bullpen and managerial decisions. I think W-L records for pitchers is about the most completely arbitrary statistic in the game.

 

[MacNut]

How many closers have won the Cy Young.

 

[aloofman]

How many closers have won the Cy Young.

Mike Marshall, Bruce Sutter, Steve Bedrosian, Mark Davis, and Eric Gagne in the NL.

Sparky Lyle, Rollie Fingers, Willie Hernandez, and Dennis Eckersley in the AL.

 

[MacNut]

Mike Marshall, Bruce Sutter, Steve Bedrosian, Mark Davis, and Eric Gagne in the NL.

Sparky Lyle, Rollie Fingers, Willie Hernandez, and Dennis Eckersley in the AL.

one would think Mariano Rivera would be on that list multiple times.

 

[IJ Reilly]

one would think Mariano Rivera would be on that list multiple times.

Among others. It always seen as an "event" whenever a non-starter wins the Cy Young. An even better question: How many pitchers have won the MVP? Especially since the creation of the Cy Young, only a very few. The last time was almost 15 years ago. These awards all have their inbred biases.

 

[aloofman]

one would think Mariano Rivera would be on that list multiple times.

First of all, a Yankee fan would think that. If anything, I think Rivera may be hurt in the voting by (1) being so consistent that he never seems to be having a great year even though he almost always is, and (2) competition from other Yankee starters. In years where Clemens was among the contenders, Rivera didn't have a chance.

Second, context of the individual season tends to be important. Many of the Cy Young wins by closers were in years in which there was no really dominant starter. For some voters those are the only circumstances in which they'll vote for a non-starter, when an incredible season by a closer is compared to a bunch of good starters. You could argue that Gagne's 2003 win was like that, although it was also one of the greatest performances by any relief pitcher.

The same kind of thing happens with the MVP: it goes to the key player on a contender, unless there's no clear key player and someone on a weak team has a superstar season. (Like Alex Rodriguez with the Rangers.) But sometimes the contender gets it anyway, even though someone else clearly had a better year, a la Joe Gordon and Lou Boudreau.

 

[MacNut]

What happened to the Red Sox. Its like they fell off the face of the earth, Manny out Ortiz out Lester out. Their hopes of any playoff run are fading fast.

Wells is also being shopped around for a possible trade.

in other news...

Carl Pavano was scratched from a scheduled rehabilitation start Wednesday, and New York Yankees manager Joe Torre isn't counting on having the off-injured pitcher return to the major leagues this year.

The decision was made Tuesday, a day after a scan revealed Pavano broke two ribs in an Aug. 15 car crash he didn't disclose to the team until after he made three minor league starts.

 

[aloofman]

What happened to the Red Sox. Its like they fell off the face of the earth, Manny out Ortiz out Lester out. Their hopes of any playoff run are fading fast.

Wells is also being shopped around for a possible trade.

in other news...

I think Bill Simmons (ESPN.com) had it right when he said that Boston had been overachieving this year. If not for great years from Ortiz and Ramirez, a miracle closer in Papelbon in the first half, and mopping the floor with NL opponents, they're an average team at best. Interleague is no longer a factor, Papelbon is better than expected but a mere mortal now, and Ortiz and Ramirez are major question marks. Now the acquisitions of Beckett, Wells, Crisp, et al., can be seen for the blunders they are.

On the other hand, the Yankees still need to be concerned. A sweep of the collapsing Bosox aside, I think the Tigers, Twins, and Chisox would all beat the Yankees in a playoff series right now.

 

[thedude110]

What happened to the Red Sox. Its like they fell off the face of the earth, Manny out Ortiz out Lester out. Their hopes of any playoff run are fading fast.

It all started falling apart when Clement went down. No Clement, no Wakefield, Wells hurt (and now Lester) -- the Sox lost 3/5 of their rotation.

Losing Varitek, Willy Mo and Alex Gonzalez hasn't helped any. But the real problem has been injuries to pitchers.

I really thought the Arroyo trade was smart -- I loved looking at a rotation of Schilling, Beckett (I remember debating with a friend about who would have the better first year in the AL, Beckett or Burnett. Who thought they'd both be so inconsequential?), Clement, Wakefield and Papelbon. Who knew Beckett would suck, Clement and Wakefield would go down, and Papelbon would become a lights-out closer?

Wait 'till next year, root for the Twins and Tigers, etc. ...

Papelbon is better than expected but a mere mortal now, and Ortiz and Ramirez are major question marks. Now the acquisitions of Beckett, Wells, Crisp, et al., can be seen for the blunders they are.

I think Papelbon is more tired than anything -- my hope is he moves into the rotation next year.

I think Beckett will still be very good, and probably worth the cost of Freddy Sanchez. I also think that Crisp will provide superior up the middle defense for years to come.

Wells and Willy Mo Pena, on the other hand ...

 

[IJ Reilly]

The rumor mill has David Wells being traded to San Diego for a minor league prospect, or possibly to LA or St. Louis, where interest has also been shown. His next scheduled start for Boston (tonight) has already been cancelled, and his locker cleaned out. We should know in hours who gets him, but the question is: What is a 43 year-old, broken-down David Wells worth to a National League team in a pennant race? In post-season play?

I know he's got a lot of stretch-drive and post-season experience, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm wondering if Wells is in good enough condition right now to be a real asset. When was the last time he was asked to handle a stick of lumber?

 

[MacsomJRR]

When was the last time he was asked to handle a stick of lumber?

When he was with the pads in 2004.

I'm not that excited about getting Wells back from Boston but since Park is out due to a bleeding GI ulcer we have to do something. Welcome back Wells (not sure if this is official yet though).

EDIT: I'd like to add that I think Stauffer needs to be added into the rotation full time - that kid rocks!

 

[thedude110]

When was the last time he was asked to handle a stick of lumber?

Whoever gets him better hope he doesn't handle a bat very well ... imagine him running the bases!

 

[IJ Reilly]

Whoever gets him better hope he doesn't handle a bat very well ... imagine him running the bases!

Good point. I checked his stats and he's got a .117 batting average in 120 plate appearances.

Either way, he's gone back to the Padres, for a player to be named later and cash.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/...t_id=1639171&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

 

[thedude110]

Sox just lost Papelbon to "burning in his shoulder," and Jon Lester's back pain has led to a cancer diagnosis.

 

[Koodauw]

On the other hand, the Yankees still need to be concerned. A sweep of the collapsing Bosox aside, I think the Tigers, Twins, and Chisox would all beat the Yankees in a playoff series right now.

While there is always reason for concern, Taking 2 out of three from the tigers, and the first from the twins isnt a bad start.

 

[Cooknn]

While there is always reason for concern, Taking 2 out of three from the tigers, and the first from the twins isnt a bad start.

The Twins are done. Pitcher Brad Radke got back results from an MRI and has a stress fracture in his shoulder. Minnesota already is without rookie left-hander Francisco Liriano, on the disabled list August 8 with a strained ligament in his pitching arm. That combined with their cold bats of late and things aren't looking good. It's been a good ride though.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Whatever else happens, I hope baseball fans will be spared a subway series. New Yawkers would be brawling in the streets over it, but everybody else in the country would probably be pretty bored. In the AL, I'm rooting for the Tigers. It's been a long drought, they've had a magnificent season. They've earned and deserve a shot.

 

[MacNut]

Well Im not so certain about the Mets, Pedro is hurt and Glavine ain't much better. In a weak National League anything is possible.

Mariano Rivera will miss a few games with a sore elbow. No need to be concerned yet just let him rest a while.

Maybe Arod's slump is over with 3 homeruns in 2 days.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Well Im not so certain about the Mets, Pedro is hurt and Glavine ain't much better. In a weak National League anything is possible.

Mariano Rivera will miss a few games with a sore elbow. No need to be concerned yet just let him rest a while.

Maybe Arod's slump is over with 3 homeruns in 2 days.

Not sure why you think the NL is "weak" but I don't see any signs that the Mets are fading (second-best record in the majors, only a fraction behind the Tigers). I wish it wasn't so, with the Dodgers having to play four games at Shea next week, but I'm afraid they still look pretty strong.

 

[aloofman]

Not sure why you think the NL is "weak" but I don't see any signs that the Mets are fading (second-best record in the majors, only a fraction behind the Tigers). I wish it wasn't so, with the Dodgers having to play four games at Shea next week, but I'm afraid they still look pretty strong.

Because only a few NL teams are over .500?

 

[IJ Reilly]

Because only a few NL teams are over .500?

Seriously? Last I checked, winning a division in the NL and the AL required accomplishing the same feat: ending up with more games in the win column than anyone else.

I keep hearing about how the AL is better than the NL, but never why. I hope people who make this argument aren't putting too much stock in the All Star game or interleague play. We find out which league produced the best team in October, not before.