Be Honest....

[Semiopaque]

I personally can't see any reason to get a macpro, if you wanted to edit in final cut sure, but you're one of those adobe people (cough)

Buy a PC... Gigabyte i7 mainboard, intel 20 chip, 6gb of good ddr3 ram, ATI HD 4870 video card, Raptor 300 GB HD, Samsung 1TB HD, corsair HX 650 PSU, Lian Li case.... if you want anymore details pm me

Sort of out of thread but will get back, why would you go with an HD 4870 instead of two 4850s in Crossfire?

To the OP, as someone else said, you may want to wait for the Nehalem Pros. Also look to the other point about graphics cards, the Apple ones do seem to be quite bit behind the times, but still adequate for most purposes. Having said that, though, if you think you will want to run some Mac specific software now or in the future, the Mac Pros are quite a decent deal for the hardware in them and you can always install Windows on them for the software you need that only runs on that OS.

Switching from Windows to OS X will also take a bit to learn as well, though not incredibly difficult. Just realized I'm typing this post up from Windows Vista - I switch a lot between XP, Vista and OS X for various reasons and have just recently put Vista on my Macbook Pro, I used to have to switch machines all the time. The ability to swap between OSs on the same machine is very nice.

 

[Sabbathack]

Its funny, I use to sell computers. (Gateway) People would ALWAYS say "Maybe I should wait for the next... (model/upgrade) You will spend your life waiting, just get what you need and be done. Live with the fact that something "bigger-better-faster" is always on the horizon.

 

[mchalebk]

Its funny, I use to sell computers. (Gateway) People would ALWAYS say "Maybe I should wait for the next... (model/upgrade) You will spend your life waiting, just get what you need and be done. Live with the fact that something "bigger-better-faster" is always on the horizon.

It's certainly a good idea to not obsess over the "next" revision. However, when you know it's likely that a new release is just around the bend, it makes sense to weigh the benefits of waiting a few months vs. buying now. If you can afford to wait, this would appear to be a time where patience will be amply rewarded.

 

[Umbongo]

I've been pricing building another PC... Your specs are close to what I had in mind, I just can't figure out how you are going to power that system with an under powered 650w power supply. I was looking at a 1000w or 1200w

A 650W PSU is more than enough to run those things. 1000W+ PSUs are for dual socket systems with multiple graphics cards.

 

[Sabbathack]

A 650W PSU is more than enough to run those things. 1000W+ PSUs are for dual socket systems with multiple graphics cards.

You haven't taken in to account anything other than the specs given in your post. The parts you've given aren't even a full system. I know that wasn't the point of your post. (building a system with all specs/components)

go to: http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine

With the few addition I made (Some HDs/case fans/etc) Its recommending a 750w. Why strap myself down with JUST enough... So, like I said, I'd be looking at the 1000w

 

[nightfly13]

While a Mac Pro is an expensive experiment to see if you also will come to prefer OS X over Windows, I think there's a very high probability that you will. I know a LOT of switchers, and maybe only read 1 or 2 forum posts about people who switch back - and usually because of some bad treatment from Apple (some failed part and expensive replacement and Apple only admitting after 6 months that it was faulty) and never because of OS X.

OS X is just a lot better to work in, for maybe 95% of people who try it and put a little energy into learning it.

The other reason for a Mac is just to avoid the driver compatibility hassles and weird glitchy randomness of Windows. I had to work on 2-3 Windows laptops during a conference this week it's I was reminded how much I hate it.

Is a Mac Pro the absolute best value for money, no, not at all. OS X will not disappoint and the Mac Pro is also very upgradeable - a fair complaint against all other Macs - and the end user experience of reduced headaches is worth the price premium.

 

[MH01]

To be honest. An i7 pc will be your best choice. It will outperform a mac in the tasks you described. The question you should be asking yourself, do you need/want to run OS X. Video editing and gaming will be faster on a cheaper PC. Though if you want OS X and its apps, then the choice is easier. If you do not care too much about the OS, there is a large cost associated with moving to OS X (new hardware and buying the software again)

You might want to take into account what you do to your computer within a year. Upgrading on a mac is not like on a PC, you cannot just take out and put in parts. So if you are an upgrader....think twice.

 

[Umbongo]

You haven't taken in to account anything other than the specs given in your post. The parts you've given aren't even a full system. I know that wasn't the point of your post. (building a system with all specs/components)

go to: http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine

With the few addition I made (Some HDs/case fans/etc) Its recommending a 750w. Why strap myself down with JUST enough... So, like I said, I'd be looking at the 1000w

The original post wasn't by me, I just plugged them in to the site you linked (when I made my post) and saw it was under 500W. I'm wasn't condoning going with a 1000W PSU, just saying that it is overkill for a single socket single graphics card (even two graphics cards) system. If money isn't a concern then obviously go with the larger PSU.

 

[ekwipt]

I've been pricing building another PC... Your specs are close to what I had in mind, I just can't figure out how you are going to power that system with an under powered 650w power supply. I was looking at a 1000w or 1200w

Power will be more than efficient... if you are worried though the BFG ES-800 psu looks great

 

[wheezy]

Video editing and gaming will be faster on a cheaper PC.

Please explain that a little more, I know i7 is the new hotness, but currently only single quads are selling. And in a few months when Snow Leopard is out and multi-core becomes useful past bragging rights I don't know if Vista will be able to keep up at all in hardcore processing power. Also, MacPro's will be getting server class Nehalem soon.

Maybe you're forgetting that Mac's use the same processor technology as those 'cheaper PC's'. I believe that Nehalem will be a good speed boost, and Grand Central will actually take advantage of that. The one app I know that I have that uses all 8 cores (handbrake) is phenomenally fast on my 8 core. As soon as the OS and developers really tap into those cores as well as GPU cycles, speed is going to go crazy. And I don't think Vista is ready for that, and Windows 7 is... where?

 

[chromatronic]

i dont understand why peoples continue to say "i7" will destroy current Mac Pro...
Benchmarks are now out and its not the case...
At least comparing the entry level mac pro 2.8, and the entry level i7 processor 2.66... in most of the test that entry level I7 (that will maybe be the speed for the entry level mac pro after revision) is close to equal to the 2.8 or 10% better.... only on some very specific things its more powerfull....

I don't say its not more powerful but that even the architecture of the new i7 processor is better, the entry level model speed is more slow than entry level peryn we have in mac pro....
So yes if the i7 first price was 2.8ghz then it would be much more interesting unstead of peryn 2.8...
PART of what the i7 entry level gain because of is new architecture is lost by reduced speed... (part.. not all ^_^, )

So i think if you dont want to buy the middle or fastest model of mac pro that will come with new I7... you will get maybe 15 % speed by buying the entry level i7 instead of the entry level peryn mac pro...

And so off course... 15% is cool !

BUT you can also NOW have a mac pro octo 2.8 for cheaper than the price of apple store.... and so probably cheaper than what the new Mac Pro entry level with I7 will cost...

check price for mac pro now on refurb, or other stores...

AS for making music Now today on a computer... there is no way a Pc with I7 can be more powerful than a Mac pro octocore 2.8. . .
And then even you want only octo core pc vs octo core mac pro... Its much more nice to work on music on osx than window...

OR if you can afford the medium model mac pro with i7 close to 3ghz then yes its gonna be really more powerfull than the mac pro 2.8 (But still not the 100% more power that was announced before ^_^, )

 

[ceres]

Well, the best argument for the MP is the resale value. I have lost a lot on reselling my PCs on ebay. Even though totally undersupported MPs retain much value over the course of 16 months, whereas the current i7 130 W part along with its infrastructure will lose painfully much in 12-16 months.
I favor WinTel selfmade boxes for their versatility and upgradability but you stand to lose a lot money if you really play the game of the early adopter whereas, at least lately, the MP was priced very competitively in the Workstation market up to the point that you couldn´t build a similiar workstation yourself for less.
I just hope that by the time the Nehalem Pro is released Apple decides to offer decent GPU choice. 4870 1GB or GTX 260 216 55nm are definitely called for.
This is a must along with much better support for cross OS Hardware Raid support. Also get the hell rid of PATA optical drives. Barely any decent ones out there any longer.

--

 

[Fatal Darkness]

To be honest. An i7 pc will be your best choice. It will outperform a mac in the tasks you described. The question you should be asking yourself, do you need/want to run OS X. Video editing and gaming will be faster on a cheaper PC. Though if you want OS X and its apps, then the choice is easier. If you do not care too much about the OS, there is a large cost associated with moving to OS X (new hardware and buying the software again)

Of course an i7 PC will outperform the current MP. Apple hasn't updated the MP since January. When Apple finally does update it, you can expect the next revision to outperform all but perhaps the most powerful/expensive PC configurations.

You might want to take into account what you do to your computer within a year. Upgrading on a mac is not like on a PC, you cannot just take out and put in parts. So if you are an upgrader....think twice.

I hear the upgrade myth come up in PC vs Mac discussions all of the time. As a long time builder of PCs, if there's one thing I've learned is that, (unless you're upgrading your video card every month) for most people when it comes time to upgrade you will find you end up having to buy or build an entirely new system anyway.

Upgrading a CPU? Now there's a new packaging or socket type, requiring a new motherboard, which uses a new type of memory, etc. As for video cards? We've gone from MCA, ISA, EISA, VLB, PCI, AGP (1x, 2x, 4x, 8x ...), PCI-X 32, PCI-X 64, PCIE 1.0, PCIE 2.0 etc. Not to mention the ever increasing change in power requirements.

About the only thing you can realistically upgrade in a PC is your memory, video card if within one or two generations, and adding peripherals -- all of which can also be done a Mac Pro.

You can put any PC video card you want in a Mac Pro and use it under Windows, so from a PC perspective you aren't losing out on anything. However your video card selection for OS X is limited and they are generally one generation behind their PC counterparts.

 

[tosehee]

I have switched from PC about 2 years ago, and I still am not sure if I am absolutely happy. I can't really go back to PC, but here it goes.

Cons:

1. Many HD related softwares are absent from Mac. If you want to rip, watch, and etc, you will need to use vmware or boot camp to Windows.
2. Video Cards. The best you can get from Mac is what? And what's available for PC? How long do I need to wait for these cards to be available in Mac and at what premium price?
3. Leopard Stability. Man. I thought windows BSOD was bad.. Leopard is not much better. I get a constant freeze now and then, and I can't figure out WTH.
4. List of available software.
5. I don't play a lot of games any more, but man.. if I was.. I would be using Windows primarily.

Pros:

1. Integration. I use iPhone, iPod, Apple Airport Express. All of these integrates well with mac and it seems they are really meant to co-exist.
2. Host of Rams you can install
3. Some of the best pro apps such as Final Cut Studio, Aperture, and etc are only available in OSX.

 

[SnowLeopard2008]

I have switched from PC about 2 years ago, and I still am not sure if I am absolutely happy. I can't really go back to PC, but here it goes.

Cons:

1. Many HD related softwares are absent from Mac. If you want to rip, watch, and etc, you will need to use vmware or boot camp to Windows.
2. Video Cards. The best you can get from Mac is what? And what's available for PC? How long do I need to wait for these cards to be available in Mac and at what premium price?
3. Leopard Stability. Man. I thought windows BSOD was bad.. Leopard is not much better. I get a constant freeze now and then, and I can't figure out WTH.
4. List of available software.
5. I don't play a lot of games any more, but man.. if I was.. I would be using Windows primarily.

Pros:

1. Integration. I use iPhone, iPod, Apple Airport Express. All of these integrates well with mac and it seems they are really meant to co-exist.
2. Host of Rams you can install
3. Some of the best pro apps such as Final Cut Studio, Aperture, and etc are only available in OSX.

You can use external Blu-Ray drives and Boot Camp to Windows and watch it there. Or just a Blu-Ray player and watch it on a HDTV. The Mac Pro can handle multiple video cards at the same time. The best is the nVidia 8800 GT or something and can play Crysis well enough. Leopard is much more stable than any Windows build out there. When do you get freezes? If you can't even figure out how the freeze occurs, the Mac Pro is not for you. Any old pro will know why. Even I probably know why and I'm not even classified as a pro. Honestly, this is probably an isolated case. I have never heard of more than a few people complain about freezing and it was actually Leopard's fault and not a human error or 3rd party hardware failure.

 

[product26]

My biggest gripe is that you have to take the front door off of any optical drive to make it fit.. It makes the drive WAY louder than it was intended to be. And when a computer is so silent, it is a PITA when one function is noticeably loud.

 

[GoKyu]

I'm another switcher who had to buy a Mac Pro because they didn't offer that mythical "headless mid-tower" system. But I'll tell you - it's incredible, and with this much power, can *easily* last me the next 3-4 years (and I've already owned it for nearly a year.)

With the resale value, I can make back at least half and probably more of what I paid (and I didn't even pay full price on it, so...)

The only games I still play are via MAME (arcade games), and those work great. I mainly work in Lightroom and Photoshop, and those apps seem faster under OS X than they ever did in Windows.

It took me maybe 3-4 days to start feeling comfortable with the system, but I was able to be productive from the first day.

I don't plan on switching back to a PC - it's just not worth the hassle

 

[tosehee]

You can use external Blu-Ray drives and Boot Camp to Windows and watch it there. Or just a Blu-Ray player and watch it on a HDTV. The Mac Pro can handle multiple video cards at the same time. The best is the nVidia 8800 GT or something and can play Crysis well enough. Leopard is much more stable than any Windows build out there. When do you get freezes? If you can't even figure out how the freeze occurs, the Mac Pro is not for you. Any old pro will know why. Even I probably know why and I'm not even classified as a pro. Honestly, this is probably an isolated case. I have never heard of more than a few people complain about freezing and it was actually Leopard's fault and not a human error or 3rd party hardware failure.

I am no pro as my usage of OSX/mac is just little over 2 years. The freeze that I get seems like a video related. I have researched extensively, but I can't confirm the actual cause.

The freeze or system hangs occur totally randomly. I could be using any software/apps, and bam. Nothing. Mouse is stuck, keyboard is stuck, and etc. Only way to get out of is the hard reboot through switch.

I thought it was the ram first. I took out all the memory except the default (I use 5 gigs of ram), and same behavior. So, I definitely know it's not a memory related.

I have ordered the 8800gt (evga to flash with), so that's my next try.

I have never had this type of issue before with PC. And definitely, your mileage and mine varies. It could very well be an isolated issue, but since my macpro is not covered by warranty any more, I am left with searching the solution my own.

Other than, I am mostly happy.

As for the bluray blue in vmware, that won't work. It's too darn slow to watch for some reason for me. Maybe 8800gt is powerful enough to drive this, maybe.. I can try and let you know. I usually use the eac3to and other programs to rip the bluray to my media server, and stream through popcornhour. I can do that through vmware, but just slower. Running through directly in boot camp is like 2 to 3 times faster. Wish there are eac3to version for mac, and etc, which is what my complain is. There are a lot of great programs, but there are still tons more in PC world.

I don't play games any more, so that's not an issue for me. So far, I am mostly happy, but still like to complain to make the better even better.

 

[ekwipt]

i dont understand why peoples continue to say "i7" will destroy current Mac Pro...

Current Macpro should still perform better for video editing than the the i7, most video editing use all of the available cores.

Reason i'm suggesting is because this guy wants to run adobe apps (no mention of Final Cut). there's no reason to waste money on a macpro if he wants to game and run Adobe premier

 

[ekwipt]

Sort of out of thread but will get back, why would you go with an HD 4870 instead of two 4850s in Crossfire?

Prefer single cpu cards, less to go wrong and the wank factor is not there. If you're a HARDCORE gamer than do what you will on a pc (dual 4870xs or tri nvidia SLI, blah blah), personally i think it's a waste of money

 

[Semiopaque]

Prefer single cpu cards, less to go wrong and the wank factor is not there. If you're a HARDCORE gamer than do what you will on a pc (dual 4870xs or tri nvidia SLI, blah blah), personally i think it's a waste of money

Running dual 4850s seemed to be more cost effective than a single 4870, least when I last checked, though your point about one less card with potential issues is definitely a good one.

 

[Trip.Tucker]

You are looking to spend a lot of money on a system that won´t really shine in gaming. Whatever GPU will be available at start, 6 months later will appear mediocre. You can buy a very potent PC for around 1200-1500 USD including 8GB of RAM, an overclocked Quad and so forth. Ultimately, if you don´t need 8 Cores or anything specific from OS X you are much better of buying a PC with Vista 64. Even if you do need boatloads of cpu power, I´d go for desktop i7.
Boards with the x58 chipset have support for 24 GBs of DDR3 Ram.

WTH? Wrong.

 

[Trip.Tucker]

All the posts stating that the Mac Pro gaming experience will be adequate or less than some mythical p.c. setup spanks of P.C. fan-boyism. The 8800 GT card is not that far behind the current fastest gpu's available and if a little thought was put into it, these posters would realize that the Mac Pro has better quality components than their tinny p.c. 'gaming' machines they compare it to.

If you like your current chicken wire and chewing gum p.c., then be happy with it, but don't go erroneously putting down the Mac Pro in an effort to play up your own machines. That's FUD.

 

[MH01]

Of course an i7 PC will outperform the current MP. Apple hasn't updated the MP since January. When Apple finally does update it, you can expect the next revision to outperform all but perhaps the most powerful/expensive PC configurations.



I hear the upgrade myth come up in PC vs Mac discussions all of the time. As a long time builder of PCs, if there's one thing I've learned is that, (unless you're upgrading your video card every month) for most people when it comes time to upgrade you will find you end up having to buy or build an entirely new system anyway.

Upgrading a CPU? Now there's a new packaging or socket type, requiring a new motherboard, which uses a new type of memory, etc. As for video cards? We've gone from MCA, ISA, EISA, VLB, PCI, AGP (1x, 2x, 4x, 8x ...), PCI-X 32, PCI-X 64, PCIE 1.0, PCIE 2.0 etc. Not to mention the ever increasing change in power requirements.

About the only thing you can realistically upgrade in a PC is your memory, video card if within one or two generations, and adding peripherals -- all of which can also be done a Mac Pro.

You can put any PC video card you want in a Mac Pro and use it under Windows, so from a PC perspective you aren't losing out on anything. However your video card selection for OS X is limited and they are generally one generation behind their PC counterparts.

The new MP will be a nice machine though will not outperform PC enthusiast machines in the same price range, high end PC hardware is really impressive, highly overclockable boards, aftermarket cooling and silly configurations like quad SLI (xfire) can build you a very very fast PC. Not to mention crazy setups like skullrail.

Upgrading -

CPU - Major architecture changes like sockets usually happen every 2 years. Socket 775 was introduced in 2006 to present. Also when an change does happen you can pick up the fastest CPU for you current MB at very low prices, while improving performance.

Video cards - A generation behind is a very long way, and if you like gaming, its going to be subpar. Game developers are lazy, they develop for the current hardware. BTW PCI express the current standard was introduced in 2004, while it has been updated it is backwards compatible.

RAM - DDR2 standard till this year was introduced in 2003. Only this year DDR3 has taken over.

Drivers - Driver development on OS X is lacking, there is just no need for it, if it works, great. On PC side, ATI and Nvidia release new drivers every month trying to best each other to get the best performance out of thier hardware. This lack of competition in os x delivers drivers that just work but do not excel, that is also why most mac users game in Bootcamp.

And if you overclock you can really get a bang for you bucks.

I still very much stand by the fact that if you need OS X, you get a mac, its the OS requirement. On the PC side, its very competative between the manufactures and given there is choice you will always get a faster machine that CANNOT run OS X (legally).

 

[Sesshi]

Ok, I'm making the switch from PC.... (Hold the applause...)
I'm coming from a 1.8Ghz 1GB ram... 128mb GeForce GFX card. I like to play games, video edit(Adobe Premiere) and lots of multi-track recording. I can't play any newer games, my system is too slow now. Video editing is slow and choppy, and rendering takes hours for simple 4-5 minutes music videos...

I'm looking at getting a Mac Pro (1) Quad-core 2.8 with 2GB ram and the 8800GT GFX card.

That being said... HERE's my question.

What will I NOT like about the Mac Pro? I know its pricey for the toy that I'll being using it for. I'm SURE the iMac can handle what I want, I just fear not being able to upgrade. Also, if it breaks down, I can't swap components on the iMac where as on the Mac Pro I can....

Thanks for any advice...

Sab

Well - the actual component swappability of a Pro in terms of practical usefulness is open to debate, once you get around the fact that it has slots, especially for a consumer-orientated user.

There are however many good reasons why you wouldn't want to build a PC as the alternative - especially if you lack the basic skills to build one properly, but believe otherwise. Many DIYers may disagree but I also suspect they've never been inside an upper-end PC before and looked at the tweaks involved in comparison to a DIY (unless that is you actually know what you're doing).

But there are many viable pre-built machines to choose from. Put it like this - a Dell XPS 730x for example will get you more power than the current single-socket Pro to start with for roughly the same money (including, if you want, a media suite to get you started, just like a Mac), and has a far better upgrade path from a consumer perspective in terms of what you can stick inside it without the hacks (many of which compromises the design ethos of the Pro, making them even more laughable) you see on this subforum. It is also ironically a more heavy-duty machine than the Pro, not to mention better paid-for supported than the supposedly 'Pro' machine.

What is even more ironic to me is that many of the uses which requires the most horsepower in a dual-boot situation for most people of a consumer orientation is actually in Windows, and many Switchers are blithely tying one hand behind their backs for the main use in terms of resource usage, purely for the supposed crushing superiority of OS X over what's shipping now on comparable systems - Vista64.