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I'm not the one with the onus of proof to be honest - the most rabidly Apple here don't even own the competition. My 'accusations' are very specific compared to the cloud of biased ignorance from the aforementioned group.

I work in an education environment where I support Macs and Dells as well as some generic PC boxes. Of the 300+ machines 100 are mac based and 75 are Dell products. The remainder are a mix of various flavors of laptops (Mac and Dell) and the generic PC boxes.

As a support person, I am not experiencing the issue rates in the numbers you are suggesting. Given the opportunity to share the basis of your information would seem to be easier than coming up with the non-statement you have provided. I am genuinely interested in these sources as I tried several different searches and could not find anything that corroborated what you have suggested.

The reason for my interest is that we do try to avoid machines with problems. For example, we passed the early iMacs with the capacitor problem a few years ago (yes, it was industry wide) until a correction was made. So, knowing the source of your information may help us with purchasing decisions in the future.
 
Remember when you wrote these words?





http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4GPcUSnKdK4 (1 min 36)

The same process was used on the Macbook Air.

So forgive me if I don't regard you as the world's
number one expert on build quality :)

It's rolled sheet. Not cold-forged block. The manufacturing process uses aluminium which is formed under low temperatures (i.e. not at melting temperatures of the alloy) into basically thick sheets, and not from a discrete block forged to be machined. The former is easier to machine, but weaker. Aluminium which is made any other way (block or sheet) will be too weak for this type of use, but you can easily test the difference between rolled and forged pieces by hitting it with say steel. The rolled (As on all recent aluminium-crafted Macs) piece will pit relatively easily: The forged will not. It is perfectly possible to mass-produce things from such blocks - but the cost will be higher - and a unibody Mac made that way may end up even heavier.

Actually, now that you mention it there's an interesting lesson to be learned from all this.

For example, Dell uses magnesium shells in their XPS M1330's which contain more recent engineering / materials innovation than the relatively low-tech (in terms of the materials working processes involved) Apple approach. The shell + internal chassis is almost as rigid in overall structural terms as a unibody construction, but considerably lighter and thinner. And there's good reasons why both companies do the things the way they do.

The Dell approach is a more efficient method of manufacture for low-margin mass production, and allows you to pack more in to the notebook to hit the same weight. When Jobs worked on the NEXT, the casing was constructed of magnesium alloy - because it embraced newer techniques in construction of enclosures at the time, and it was also aimed at people who understood what magnesium was. And until the current generation (as do/did many other notebooks), the portables used magnesium inner frames, which was one of the lightest, most efficient way of having an endoskeleton in a notebook computer at reasonable manufacturing cost.

But the Apple approach is designer / marketing-led. I would bet that Apple rejected outright the use of magnesium as an external casing purely for one reason: It doesn't feel like metal. The unibody approach results in possibly the heaviest construction method for a load-bearing shell given what's available at the moment - and this is of course one of the reasons they dropped the battery capacities to hit the target weights, the batteries being among the heaviest parts of a laptop. But it definitely feels like metal.

The tactile experience is premium to the uninformed, even if everything else which underlies it is not.

When you're dealing with the technologically illiterate crowd that Apple primarily embraces, it's a given that people won't be able to tell the the difference between magnesium or plastic - and telling them it's made of magnesium, since there's no significant tactile or visually discernible enhancement, is a bad move on the part of a manufacturer concerned about such matters. A percentage of Dell M1330 owners who are potential Switchers - i.e. the aforementioned technology illiterates - probably think the casing is plastic. And examining it in terms of perception, it becomes a marketing issue.

By hyping up possibly the oldest / the least efficient way of making a lightweight casing suitable for mass production, Apple once again highlights the effectiveness of marketing and knowing your clientèle inside out, as well as having a CEO who knows the absolute importance of this - when you're peddling bull**** to the dumb masses. The likes of Dell, by having a less competent marketing department, lacks the ability for those parties to dictate manufacturing terms in the same manner. Many of the differences in the ultimate engineered-in suitability for the intended purpose of the machines come from this difference.

Sony have access to superior manufacturing methods, but a similar level of understanding of how their clientèle would perceive materials: This is why they call their premium laptops carbon fiber, instead of short-fibre reinforced thermoplastic. The thermoplastics used in Sony's cases are a very good solution to making computer cases - it's more durable than many other materials when used in a similar way (compared to - oh I dunno - aluminium for example), and easy to make - although the structure will however be weaker than when made from the 'real carbon fiber'. And therein lies a slight marketing problem when you say what it's made out of because all it is, is basically reinforced plastic. But since it contains carbon fibres, you can legitimately call it 'carbon fiber' - and the consumer is none the wiser.

---------------------------------

What makes me laugh about where your post came from - and the general line of reasoning of you and many others like you on this forum - is that you're claiming I'm ill-informed or have an invalid opinion on the basis of how predictably easy you are to market to. 'Fool me once' works on me. Apparently not for some.


I work in an education environment
I don't. You won't find a single iMac in our offices... except for the ones we used to have for the receptionists.
 
I don't. You won't find a single iMac in our offices... except for the ones we used to have for the receptionists.

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand your response to my request.

Are you indicating that you won't share your source of info? It's too bad we can't just clear the air with a simple link to the pertinent data.
 
Not at all - My statistics come from our equipment and usage, as it does undoubtedly with you. What I am saying is that there is a significant gulf between the respective usages and our respective information may not be of that much use to either, given the likely difference in deployed hardware. We use computers as a means of generating income directly, and many of them are mission-critical. The types of uses we put the majority of desktops to (beyond basic office automation) might be found in a more advanced educational establishments, but not with one which deploys hardware of the class of iMacs in a big way.

As I may have mentioned before, in terms of desktops apart from the Pros we have only the Dell Precisions and HP xw's widely deployed - because we know from experience that there is a significant difference between them and your standard Dell / HP box not just for power, but also in terms of ultimate reliability. My problem with the Pros is that in addition to the minor internal engineering failings which affect the stability of operation of the onboard peripherals/storage, their reliability in such environments barely differs from your standard low-end consumer Dell box - and that does not, in my book, qualify for a 'Professional Workstation' nomenclature. A similar parallel can be drawn between mobile workstations once again from HP and Dell and the Macbook 'Pro'.
 
It's rolled sheet. Not cold-forged block.

Nobody said "cold-forged block". That's something you've come
up with to justify yourself. The result of the extrusion and cutting
process is a number of blocks each of which is then machined to
produce the case. E.g., one such block:

block.png

It matters not how it reached that state of blockiness. It is
most certainly a block. Only a madman would deny it its proper
and rightful place amongst the species of objects we call blocks.
It has been certified as a block by the U.S. Blockological Institute.

For example, Dell uses magnesium shells in their XPS M1330's which contain more recent engineering / materials innovation than the relatively low-tech (in terms of the materials working processes involved) Apple approach.

Hopefully it is better than the Dell Inspiron laptop I used to use. The palm
rest cracked, the display had a line of stuck pixels, the single USB port
began to work only intermittently, the trackpad stopped working altogether,
and the power connector kept falling out because the fit was too loose.
Oh, and from time to time the keyboard would stop working and I had to
reboot.


When you're dealing with the technologically
illiterate crowd that Apple primarily embraces

You're certainly working hard to place yourself in that category!

It might surprise you that there are many more knowledgeable
people than you. I'm sure this forum has its fair share of engineers
and PhDs. And you seem to think you are in a unique position
to come to conclusions because you have a handful of machines.

There are people here who deal with thousands of machines.

But don't let a moment's doubt impair your absolute conviction.

By hyping up possibly the oldest / the least efficient way of
making a lightweight casing suitable for mass production,
Apple once again highlights the effectiveness of marketing
and knowing your clientèle inside out, as well as having a
CEO who knows the absolute importance of this - when
you're peddling bull**** to the dumb masses.

Perhaps you could explain to us the technological importance of the
row of lights here (top left):

http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/corporate/imagebank/desktops/xps_730_blue.jpg
 
Not at all - My statistics come from our equipment and usage, as it does undoubtedly with you.

Do you have any real statistics? Or is it just a bunch of rough
figures plucked out of the air? You can waffle on as much as
you like, but unless you produce some substantive evidence, I
simply won't believe you.
 
There's a difference between blocks intended to be machined (billet) and cut sheet in terms of how it's produced. The cold-forged reference should have accompanied cold-rolled, I missed that out.

Please, don't let me stop you from being the expert on this one ;)
 
My problem with the Pros is that in addition to the minor internal engineering failings which affect the stability of operation of the onboard peripherals/storage, their reliability in such environments barely differs from your standard low-end consumer Dell box - and that does not, in my book, qualify for a 'Professional Workstation' nomenclature.

What purpose does the Mac Pro serve in you business? It would seem from the disdain in your responses that you would avoid Mac Pros at all costs. Yet, they still seem critical to your operations.
 
There's a difference between blocks intended to be machined (billet) and cut sheet in terms of how it's produced. The cold-forged reference should have accompanied cold-rolled, I missed that out.

Nobody was saying the blocks were cold-forged. That's
something you've only introduced now. It's a somewhat
desperate effort on your part, if I may say so.

You're inventing a spurious distinction so that those
blocks (the ones cuts from rolled aluminium) are no
longer considered to be genuine blocks (i.e., they're
not cold-forged).

The essence of a block is determined by its shape, not
how it was produced.
 
Perhaps you could explain to us the technological importance of the
row of lights here (top left):

http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/corporate/imagebank/desktops/xps_730_blue.jpg

Hahaha, that is one butt-ugly computer. I hate the way that Dell/HP and particularly Alienware design their computers in accordance with their vision of the sci-fi future. I know it is Alienware's thing to look like a space monster, but seriously...

I personally like the way that Apple designs things to have looks that will last through successive generations of product. If you look at the aesthetics of a G4 cube or a lampshade iMac, the design still looks as fresh now as it did when it was released. The same will not be said for the xps.

To the OP, you should definitely buy the Mac Pro. One more consideration that I would have in regards to the next revision that has not been touched upon yet is displayport. While everyone talks about i7 and graphics cards, the next revision of Mac Pro will have a displayport graphics card which will have to be a consideration when the next generation of LCDs come out. Whether you view it as a pro or a con, I think that it's important.

Either way, I think you are going to be extremely happy with the switch and I personally don't think you will miss the lack of expandability options when you get to actually use the computer.
 
Come on guys. Who cares about blocks and sheets of alu?
Apple´s got the special touch(tm) alu haptics that come at the expense of added weight and stuff and Sony got the 1.5kg 13.3" 1600*900 ultra portable, fully packed that is touted as carbon fibre but, as we just learned, is mostly plastic in disguise as much as fois gras contains pork these days.
Apple does a great job at getting the special touch out to the people while most don´t even know what Sony pulled off in the last 12 months or so.
Sony is much too shy imo which is another subject.
It´s no use breaking a sweat about tech superiority. We are looking at different concepts. Apple prefers likable design....which may lead, for instance, to thermal problems as -back to topic- in the mac pro.
The Mac Pro is in need for some dedicated HDD cooling. The temps I observe on my F1s are too high in comparison to my PC which resides in an 100 USD Antec P182 case. I am not running a RAID right now but if I did I´d rather see some dedicated HDD cooling in place. Also, I don´t know if the cpu temps as shown by smc are core temps or package temps. If the former was the case, they´d be on the threshold of too high.
 
As I mentioned in my other posting, there is no BIOS menu.

For most people that won't matter one bit. For some, it
does matter because Apple's hard-wired BIOS settings
do not enable:

(a) AHCI SATA mode.
(b) Intel's VT-x technology.

The lack of (a) can lead to a performance penalty under
Windows in some circumstances. The lack of (b) means
that some virtualization solutions don't work. For example,
Microsoft's Hyper-V. There are workarounds, albeit kludgey:

For (a):

http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showtopic=126089

For (b):

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/30653

I must stress that these issues won't negatively impact most
people using Windows on a Mac Pro. The Mac Pro is for the
most part a terrific Windows machine and, contrary to what
Sesshi repeatedly tells us, it has proven to be reliable to date.

Where on earth did you pick up those gems of FUD. Wrong on both accounts.
 
Where on earth did you pick up those gems of FUD. Wrong on both accounts.

Note: I was referring to Windows on a Mac Pro, not
OS X. If you didn't realize that, ignore what follows.

--

You might try this. Go to the device manager under
Windows on a Mac Pro. Next, find this:

sata.png

I bet you can't.

You don't get that without a hacked bootloader or similar.

More for you to read:

http://forum.onmac.net/showthread.php?t=2739

If you want to provide a counterargument, go ahead.
 
The Mac Pro is in need for some dedicated HDD cooling. The temps I observe on my F1s are too high in comparison to my PC which resides in an 100 USD Antec P182 case. I am not running a RAID right now but if I did I´d rather see some dedicated HDD cooling in place.

What temps are you getting? I have two 1TB F1's in my MacPro and they run the coolest at about 79-82F, while my from Apple Seagate 320 rolls in the mid 90's. My 500GB WD Green Time Machine is a few degrees warmer than the F1's at 81F.

From what I have setup, with all 4 bays filled, the MacPro does fine on cooling. Not sure how a 15,000rpm drive setup goes though...
 
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