Be Honest....

[ceres]

Well - the actual component swappability of a Pro in terms of practical usefulness is open to debate, once you get around the fact that it has slots, especially for a consumer-orientated user.

There are however many good reasons why you wouldn't want to build a PC as the alternative - especially if you lack the basic skills to build one properly, but believe otherwise. Many DIYers may disagree but I also suspect they've never been inside an upper-end PC before and looked at the tweaks involved in comparison to a DIY (unless that is you actually know what you're doing).

But there are many viable pre-built machines to choose from. Put it like this - a Dell XPS 730x for example will get you more power than the current single-socket Pro to start with for roughly the same money (including, if you want, a media suite to get you started, just like a Mac), and has a far better upgrade path from a consumer perspective in terms of what you can stick inside it without the hacks (many of which compromises the design ethos of the Pro, making them even more laughable) you see on this subforum. It is also ironically a more heavy-duty machine than the Pro, not to mention better paid-for supported than the supposedly 'Pro' machine.

What is even more ironic to me is that many of the uses which requires the most horsepower in a dual-boot situation for most people of a consumer orientation is actually in Windows, and many Switchers are blithely tying one hand behind their backs for the main use in terms of resource usage, purely for the supposed crushing superiority of OS X over what's shipping now on comparable systems - Vista64.

Actually, I have never been in such a upper echelon pre built system bc they tend to be very expensive (where I live) and don´t offer (afaik) anything in terms of OC which is one of the boons in building your own system
I was wondering what kind of tweaks and so forth are actually employed in such high end systems. I know what the pro looks like and I know what my usage patterns are.

 

[Sabbathack]

Thank you!

Well I must say, without trying, I started the never ending PC vs MAC debate...

While it has been enlightening and somewhat entertaining, I'm still just as confused about which direction to go. I was always under the impression that the Mac and its Superior OS was perfect for my creative mind.

I came from the Commodore Amiga. I absolutely hated the thought of moving to PC and Windows. Over the years I have always kept my eye on the Mac. I'm finally at a point where I'm comfortable making the switch.

From my first trip to the Apple store (as a serious buyer) to weeks of internet research, I've heard nothing but conflicting information. Mac users telling me I should stick with PC. Apple employees telling me that the audio hardware is proprietary and they can't give me any specs... Also clearly lying to me and telling me the MacPro system flat out can NOT be upgraded.

I'm a musician and a photographer with a side hobby of video editing and some gaming and website creation. (The list grows daily) Oh there's that dreaded "G" word. All credibility flies right out the window... I like the ability to upgrade. Although I haven't done much other than a video card and some extra RAM in my current system.

I'm totally frustrated to be honest. I said in one post that I currently use Adobe Premiere. From that I'm told I shouldn't get a Mac, because of my software choice (Adobe)?? I'm told that a system like the MacPro is too powerful for my needs? I just don't get it. I'm not loaded with cash, but I can certainly afford the cost. I'm told its a waste of money for my use? A system that is touted to be the best of the best for audio/video having 4 or 8 cores can't play a decent game?

I give up. I guess I'll spend the money and build another high end PC and wait for a more compelling reason to switch. I thought security, compatibility, ease of use and quality would be enough to pull me over to the other side. But, from where I stand now, I see people waving their arms and holding up signs screaming "Don't do it! Don't do it!" and I just don't understand.

Thanks to everyone who posted,

Sab

 

[chromatronic]

Dont do it ? lol
Personally i told you iam professional music composer and i told you BUY IT ^_^
All musician i know use apple too and had used pc at some point and it was nightmare...

Buying a mac computer to make music, photography or video is something you will never regret...
you should give it a try... you will be sorry of buying a pc... again....
Everything "Music" is compatible with apple computer... things that are not compatible are useless programs, or amateur programs...
You can play game on your mac pro just buy an nvidia 8800 or ati 3870 you will play games...

I cant understand peoples saying dont buy one...
its never a bad thing to buy a mac to make artistic work....

 

[Sesshi]

It used to be the case. But honestly, I don't think it is anymore.

I'm also a musician of sorts, I do a fair amount of video and I'm a product designer among other things, including a former interactive media guy. And while Final Cut and Logic are fine programs, it's a case of 'if you want to work that way' more than finding it clearly superior to the alternatives under Windows. Aperture, iLife, etc - yes, there are detail areas in which they can be better integrated or easier to use, but once again - the more involved your needs become and the higher your skillset (and IMO this stage is hit pretty quickly for anyone who is halfway competent), the less relevant those details become especially when you consider your total workflow.

And the fact is that OS X has more holes than Windows in the semi-pro to pro offerings for it across the broader niches of design and creative media.

If you want to get a job in video editing, FCS is probably the way to go for many. Many use Logic and swear by it - but it's not as clear-cut a choice than it was before. Combine that with the superiority / equivalent in real terms of Windows for consumer use in terms of applications, alongside better support for even OSS projects - and the case for Apple as a pure OS X proposition really when you think about it comes down to how supremely well it is marketed and how much of a mindshare it gets these days.

 

[sangosimo]

I'm looking at getting a Mac Pro (1) Quad-core 2.8 with 2GB ram and the 8800GT GFX card.

do not get a mac pro. wait for nehalem if you have to get one. Build a windows box/hackintosh instead. The box in my sig is faster than that mac pro in ever single way and cost me 1100 dollars.

mac pros are a huge waste for most consumers. I don't know anyone who ones a mac pro that bought it themselves. The mac pro they have was purchased buy their employer or something.

 

[Mattww]

Well I must say, without trying, I started the never ending PC vs MAC debate...

While it has been enlightening and somewhat entertaining, I'm still just as confused about which direction to go. I was always under the impression that the Mac and its Superior OS was perfect for my creative mind.

I came from the Commodore Amiga. I absolutely hated the thought of moving to PC and Windows. Over the years I have always kept my eye on the Mac. I'm finally at a point where I'm comfortable making the switch.

From my first trip to the Apple store (as a serious buyer) to weeks of internet research, I've heard nothing but conflicting information. Mac users telling me I should stick with PC. Apple employees telling me that the audio hardware is proprietary and they can't give me any specs... Also clearly lying to me and telling me the MacPro system flat out can NOT be upgraded.

I'm a musician and a photographer with a side hobby of video editing and some gaming and website creation. (The list grows daily) Oh there's that dreaded "G" word. All credibility flies right out the window... I like the ability to upgrade. Although I haven't done much other than a video card and some extra RAM in my current system.

I'm totally frustrated to be honest. I said in one post that I currently use Adobe Premiere. From that I'm told I shouldn't get a Mac, because of my software choice (Adobe)?? I'm told that a system like the MacPro is too powerful for my needs? I just don't get it. I'm not loaded with cash, but I can certainly afford the cost. I'm told its a waste of money for my use? A system that is touted to be the best of the best for audio/video having 4 or 8 cores can't play a decent game?

I give up. I guess I'll spend the money and build another high end PC and wait for a more compelling reason to switch. I thought security, compatibility, ease of use and quality would be enough to pull me over to the other side. But, from where I stand now, I see people waving their arms and holding up signs screaming "Don't do it! Don't do it!" and I just don't understand.

Thanks to everyone who posted,

Sab

I don't usually post in these kind of threads but felt I wanted to as I think it is a real shame you have been given such conflicting advise. At the end of the day if you have the budget for a Mac Pro and are looking for a workhorse that can handle audio, photography (not to mention video and 3D) yet still play games well and do all the usual productivity tasks I can't see that you would be disappointed.

Sure there is always going to be cheaper PC hardware out there that will better suit a hardcore gamer or those who enjoy continually upgrading all the components as each new advance arrives but the Mac Pro isn't in the same category it is a workstation class machine and therefore uses different components -ECC RAM, Xeon processors and dual socket logic board etc. You will find that similar machines from well known PC OEMs cost a similar price and even building a machine yourself with the exact same components will be a similar price.

The advantage of the Mac Pro compared to these other workstations is the build quality and design - it is thoughtfully laid out making adding components easy. It is also very quiet and it is also the only machine that gives you the ability to run Mac OS X reliably without resorting to obtaining it dubiously and/or using time consuming hacks. It can also run Windows or Linux just as well should you require them and access to any particular applications. Should you really decide you don't like it you will also find the resale value higher than another option so there is very little risk in reality.

Most Power Macs and Mac Pro type machines remain in service for many years (sometime with the same owner). There are folks on here still using their 10 year old G4 machines with Leopard having upgraded them over the years. There are and will be upgrade options to keep the machine running the latest software, just not usually from Apple themselves - sure you are not going to have access to every generic PC part (hence why people who enjoy regularly adding new bits aren't the target market) but these are powerful machines with a long useful life.

If you don't need a new computer right now then Intel are expecting to ship new Xeon processors in a few months which Apple are expected to use - we'll have to see - but if you think it is worth waiting very much depends on your current needs.

 

[m1stake]

It used to be the case. But honestly, I don't think it is anymore.

Would you elaborate on this if you can? I know I keep asking, but this is the question I meant last time. Let me explain: My Apple experience is essentially circa 2001, when I bought my G4. I've never had to take it into the shop, I've never had a part fail. Obviously some of that is luck, but in general the quality of the machine is excellent.

I was wondering why you post on these boards because you don't have positive things to say about Apple hardware or the OSX platform in general, albeit from a seemingly professional perspective. From the quote, I infer that Macs used to meet your high expectations.

 

[Sesshi]

Met my expectations? Nowhere near on a professional level, but on a consumer, personal level it certainly hasn't been as unpleasant. The remaining 3.2 / FX5600 Pro at home is for example mainly used for Garageband / EyeTV > export to iTunes duties and a current-gen 20" iMac lives in the kitchen in addition to my Apple notebooks - but it is interesting how the bulk of my home entertainment / home productivity resides on comparable PC's (and beyond, in the case of the XPS730H2C and the Skulltrail) when I have both platforms available, while my general-purpose work environment is now solely Vista, with OS X still required for specialised, customised tasks.

While the work situation is something else, it's not that I go out of my way to avoid OS X at home - I have it, so I might as well use it - but it is just that once you start actively looking in any category, better solutions start cropping up for Windows, and others tend to be roughly equal in terms of what you can do - and after a while of that, the vast majority of what else I do at home as ended up under Windows as well, which then snowballs to have other things which are roughly equal between the two platforms to be chosen for Windows.

Obviously if you specifically go to use an OS X based app, the snowballing will be in the opposite direction to mine - but I didn't actually go in to use [x] app on [y] OS - I purchased the major players for both OS's and figured out by using them as to which worked better for me. In every case where Apple fans feel their platform is the strongest - design, video editing, photo management and even music composition / media playback - I use CS on both platforms and I own multiple licenses of FCS, Aperture as well as Logic Studio and Express - I've ended up with Windows solutions, which were either just as effective or actually more productive in regular use e.g. in the case of Vegas - and even I must say I was surprised with this.

And all that is before the inferior hardware and service of all things Apple, which is only somewhat relevant for my home use but extremely relevant for work. I know some of you think it's the best and it may well be for your systems history, but I'm used to paying for business-grade support and I have my own ideas about what constitutes a reasonable failure rate in 'pro' machines - and the situation looks a whole lot different at this end.

It's been a learning experience certainly, but I still have about two years of association with OS X remaining for work, whether I like it or not. For home? Who knows... I certainly like EyeTV a lot.

 

[ekwipt]

I know we're in mac forum, but really when it comes down to it and when you decide you want to buy anything you have to ask your self what is it going to be used for, in the case of a computer it's what software do you intend on using.

Unless you want to use Logic for Audio, you could use pcs

Unless you want to use Final Cut Studio, you could go pc for video editing

Macpro can also run Windows, so there's another piece to the puzzle

If you buy a macpro you won't be disappointed, if you buy a well built pc, i don't think you'll be disappointed either

 

[Sabbathack]

What!?

I know we're in mac forum, but really when it comes down to it and when you decide you want to buy anything you have to ask your self what is it going to be used for, in the case of a computer it's what software do you intend on using.

If you buy a macpro you won't be disappointed, if you buy a well built pc, i don't think you'll be disappointed either

I think this is the worst way to base your choice of system. EITHER system will has great software available to it. Either system (built properly) has the power to run the software. Their are people (professionals) making a living on either side of this debate.

Again, "I thought security, compatibility, ease of use and quality would be enough to pull me over to the other side."

 

[pwn247]

My #1 piece of advice, and I'm sure everyone can agree, is to wait until 09 when the new Nehalem Mac Pros go live. Apple is telling us that there's going to be some seriously awesome changes to the machine.

And what will you not like?
* Upgrading the video card is a pain in the *** if you don't buy it expensive from Apple.
* Upgrading the RAM is a little more expensive than normal PC "no-name brand" RAM.
* No overclocking (unless you use that ZD.net thing).
* You don't have a plastic black case with a cheap plastic door so you can't see "light-up-the-room" blue lights at night. (oh wait...)
* There aren't any internal wires to deal with, so don't expect to exchange the 1k+ power supply. (Seriously though, popping this thing open there are zero visible wires. Outstanding.)


Quite honestly, when I was looking at Macs I was a little skeptical. And when I ordered it, and it arrived at my house, I got it all set up and booted it up. Beforehand I thought it would be an extremely wholesome experience. I truly thought that this computer would be so fast, and so easy to use like Apple says it is. I thought purchasing a Mac would be great...


And it was! It was the happiest day of my life! Getting a Mac helped me set up my home business, and now I'm doing extremely well financially- all because I purchased a Macintosh. Phenomenal.

 

[JollyRogers]

I build my own PC's (for linux/windows) and switched to a Mac Pro last year and at the time, could not build a DUAL XEON machine with intel MB and as nice of a case layout for the same cost. Heck, back then the XEON's were 1200 a piece. Great Machine. Tried OSX86 first on my old gaming rig to see if I liked it. Now I spend very little time on OS or hardware issues on my MP and a lot on the Windows machines at work and some at home. In fact I get bored cause nothing needs to be done on my MACS Wait for the new MP's and get one. Add drive for Windows/time machine and use that for games etc. GPU's??? I expect I will be upgrading my GPU in the spring... meantime, my 8800gt has been fine. Someone above made the comment that no one he knows owns their own MP, they are bought by their company... hmm I bought mine myself

 

[Infrared]

Apple is telling us that there's going to be some seriously awesome changes to the machine.

Apple aren't telling us anything about the machine.

The machine may never exist. It's likely to, but it
is a matter of conjecture only at this point.

Or the machine may exist, but suffer from Rev A
syndrome.

It's fun to speculate, but what we know about the
next machine, should it materialize, is very little.
I would prefer to use words like "awesome" when
the blasted thing is in the hands of Apple's users.

 

[sangosimo]

I think this is the worst way to base your choice of system. EITHER system will has great software available to it. Either system (built properly) has the power to run the software. Their are people (professionals) making a living on either side of this debate.

Again, "I thought security, compatibility, ease of use and quality would be enough to pull me over to the other side."

if you are not basing your decision on software, "build a desktop" is the obvious production route. It is simply more cost effective. There are only a few products apple offers that is better than the majority of their pc counter parts and that is the imac, iphone, and touch.

The mac pro is only a good purchase if you are in a high level production environment that is centered around mac software.

 

[Chrispy]

I recently built a Core i7 system with the following:

• Intel Core i7 920 2.67 LGA 1366 CPU
• Antec P182 case (very classy look with clean lines and no crazy fans, LEDs, etc)
• Intel DX58SO Motherboard (not an overclocker or huge gamer and I favor stability and build quality above all so went Intel and gave up SLI)
• 6GB (3 x 2) DDR3 PC1600 Memory
• EVGA nVidia GeForce 9500 GS 512 DDR3
• HT Omega Claro 7.1 Sound Card (FANTASTIC audio quality)
• 640GB WD HDD (space for many more if needed)
• 6X blu-ray / HD-DVD combo drive
• ASUS DVD+/-RW
• Corsair 650 Watt Power Supply (SLI and CrossFire ready)
• Windows Vista Ultimate 64-bit.

I use the system with Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 and it works great for my needs. However, if my career was video editing, I'm sure I would be using a mac instead. That said, the system is doing what I need it to do and I saved over $550 going this route vs the single 2.8 MP (paid about $1600 total for everything)

Windows Vista 64-bit (when installed properly) is a very stable operating system and perfectly secure as long as you keep the system updated and use anti-virus. It takes longer to boot but once it gets going it screams.

Now, I also have a MacBook Pro (early 2008 edition) with 4GB Ram and a 320GB 7,200 RPM WD HDD. This system is great as well and I use it for recording video directly into my computer from my DV Cam.

At the end of the day I usually end up using both platforms and both do what I need. If you have any questions about video editing performance on the i7 feel free to send me a DM

 

[wheezy]

To the OP - It seems you're really not impressed with Windows and Premiere, it's just what you have so you use it.

If you want to switch - SWITCH.

I do photography in Aperture and my system screams with it. I export a lot of pictures into PS CS3 to add some extra layer effects before saving it back into Aperture (as a new version) and it doesn't skip a beat.

I also do web design. It's definitely an overkill box for Web Design, but it's not all that I do. If all I did was Web Design, then an iMac would be terrific.

I'm not a hardcore gamer at all, but my stock ATI 2600HD can handle COD:Modern Warfare for me just fine. It's not maxed out on all the settings, but it still looks awesome and I'm playing at my screens native 1680x1050 no problem at all. (most settings are maxed)

Lastly - Video. I think the compliment of the individual applications to each other in Final Cut Studio makes that a terrific choice; add in how well it's implemented into OS X itself and that it is one of the main functions for a MacPro and you have an awesome combo. I don't know how hardcore you at at Videos, I'd almost recommend Final Cut Express and see if it can tackle your needs. Either way you go, a MacPro is designed to edit video so you won't find it lacking.

Lastly part II, remember Snow Leopard and the very much improved Multi-core support. I'd almost strongly recommend going with Final Cut Express for now until the new, updated FCS is released which should be better written for multi-core and taking advantage of Grand Central.

I love my MacPro. I'm not nearly as hardcore on computers as many in these forums and this post are, but I do know my way around them inside and out. The MacPro makes me a very happy customer and I expect it will for several more years.

 

[MotleyPete]

I'm looking at getting a Mac Pro (1) Quad-core 2.8 with 2GB ram and the 8800GT GFX card.

I have the version with two Quads and as somebody said before, it is a BEAST!

You said to be honest, well, I've honestly not had a days trouble with it. I use it everyday for 3D modelling/rendering. It's quiet, fast and solid as a rock. I can't imagine that the singe Quad version will be much different in terms of reliability.

I'm expecting this machine to last me for quite a while and in the future I plan on packing it full of RAM, upgrading the graphics card and squeezing a further few years out of it.

 

[Infrared]

What will I NOT like about the Mac Pro?

As I mentioned in my other posting, there is no BIOS menu.

For most people that won't matter one bit. For some, it
does matter because Apple's hard-wired BIOS settings
do not enable:

(a) AHCI SATA mode.
(b) Intel's VT-x technology.

The lack of (a) can lead to a performance penalty under
Windows in some circumstances. The lack of (b) means
that some virtualization solutions don't work. For example,
Microsoft's Hyper-V. There are workarounds, albeit kludgey:

For (a):

http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showtopic=126089

For (b):

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/30653

I must stress that these issues won't negatively impact most
people using Windows on a Mac Pro. The Mac Pro is for the
most part a terrific Windows machine and, contrary to what
Sesshi repeatedly tells us, it has proven to be reliable to date.

 

[Sesshi]

I'd very much like to know where it's proven, given the double-digit warranty rates for our Pros against the low single-digit rates for the Dell Precisions / HP xw's - who also have 4/8-hour response in the rarer case of a failure, unlike the 'Sure, just hoick that >15-kilo sucker under your arm and bring it on down to one of our Stores', or if you're lucky 'Sure, one of our service providers will pick it up and if you pray particularly hard to the Cult of Jobs, you might see it within a week' offerings of Apple.

 

[Sabbathack]

See what I mean?!

The mac pro is only a good purchase if you are in a high level production environment that is centered around mac software.

Geeze I thought it was a more well rounded system?

 

[jeffreyk]

Or the machine may exist, but suffer from Rev A
syndrome.

As I am new to Macs -- actually going to be buying the new 2009 version when released next year -- what is "Rev A Syndrome?"

Thanks.

 

[Infrared]

I'd very much like to know where it's proven, given the double-digit warranty rates for our Pros against the low single-digit rates for the Dell Precisions / HP xw's - who also have 4/8-hour response in the rarer case of a failure, unlike the 'Sure, just hoick that >15-kilo sucker under your arm and bring it on down to one of our Stores', or if you're lucky 'Sure, one of our service providers will pick it up and if you pray particularly hard to the Cult of Jobs, you might see it within a week' offerings of Apple.

Go on, then, give us the complete statistical analysis.

You come on here regularly with your vague accusations.
Let's see some substance.

 

[Mattww]

As I am new to Macs -- actually going to be buying the new 2009 version when released next year -- what is "Rev A Syndrome?"

Thanks.

The next Mac Pro is likely to be based on a totally new type of Intel architecture (Nehalem) where as the current model is a refined version of the last one (Penryn). Some People tend to think the first release of a new design has the potential to have more teething problems and bugs and that later releases have the kinks worked out. Although I can understand the way of thinking I have owned "Rev A" products before that have been just fine so I would say base you buying decision on whether you need it rather than worry too much about the particular technologies.

 

[Sesshi]

Go on, then, give us the complete statistical analysis.

You come on here regularly with your vague accusations.
Let's see some substance.

I'm not the one with the onus of proof to be honest - the most rabidly Apple here don't even own the competition. My 'accusations' are very specific compared to the cloud of biased ignorance from the aforementioned group.

 

[Infrared]

I'm not the one with the onus of proof to be honest

Remember when you wrote these words?

It's not made out of 'solid aluminium block'.

Machining to finish en masse is cheap - and it's been cast then
machined if I'm not mistaken. It wouldn't be that viable to mill
the shells 'from a solid block' if the machine was expected to
sell in any significant volume.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4GPcUSnKdK4 (1 min 36)

The same process was used on the Macbook Air.

So forgive me if I don't regard you as the world's
number one expert on build quality