Being totally objective here on AW vs Garmin...

[NME42]

Garmin provides a lot of interpretations but do you really believe some of those such as performance condition? And, do you really use those metrics? Some are quite valuable such as pace (for running) and distance, but others are a bit of a suspect. There is something to be said for learning how to read and feel your body rather than depend so much on an external quantification of an experience in which the quantification may not necessarily be accurate.

As a previous user of high-end Garmin watches (Fenix and 9xx models) and bike computers, the metrics of Garmin were a big disappointment.
All the fancy stuff like body battery etc. was more or less as reliable as a daily horoscope. Especially when practicing with more than one device, all the metrics were far from reality. Even though Garmin promised to merge different devices through "Physio True Up" to a complete picture.
Training status is a constant source of confusion. Just look up Garmin or runner forums and search for "Training status: unproductive".

Even the more or less easy metrics like race predictions and lactate threshold pace did not even do sanity checks.
The lactate threshold pace (pace that can be sustained about 15km or 1 hour) my Garmin 945 determined was quite accurate. In the same time, my Garmin reported a race prediction for marathon that required faster than the reported lactate threshold pace. Ridiculous.
Even more ridiculous: running a 5k race faster than the race prediction for 5k and afterwards the 5k prediction stayed the same. Well.

I rely on runalyze. Lot more value than what Garmin metrics offered me. And can handle multiple devices really well.

 

[NickYanakiev]

I don't get why there is such a heated debate going on between Garmin lovers and haters.

Why does someone need to be 100% right? Even though I like the Ultra for what it is, I prefer my Epix Gen 2 for training. I am finding Garmin's body battery to be scarily accurate vs how I feel, along with stress.

I am normally able to detect pretty easily when I am about to get ill just by keeping track of some of those metrics (mind you, a lot of them use HRV data in one form or another);

EDIT: I intended to sell my Epix Gen 2 but realised Apple isn't there yet to fully provide for what I consider valuable- be it for cycling or running (let alone on the wrist navigation and mapping);

Keeping one for exercise and training and the other as an everyday watch + safety tool + streaming when running somewhere far without my phone.
It is an added bonus that HR and GPS accuracy are as good as they are on the Ultra

 

[DontGetTheCheese]

I think the thread finally coalesced in a good place.

Garmin has cool, but unreliable metrics. At the same time it presents better than what Apple has.

Apple is smarter, does 80 to 90 percent of it, but if that gap matters, it really matters, especially with connected devices.

it’s frustrating because neither watch really hits the “does everything I want it to category”.

 

[NickYanakiev]

Apple doing 80-90% of it is a big over statement IMHO. More like 60% and that's through third party apps.

The native experience is far more underwhelming and most users out there are far less willing to tinker than we are. Garmin just works and I find the data to be reliable and a good indicator of my condition.

 

[johnb300m]

Sorry - you’re comparing entry level Garmins which were more watches than they were fitness trackers against a new premium Apple Watch. As a long time Garmin lover and owner of a Fenix 6s pro and a Fenix 5s before it (and a long time Garmin user) the accuracy of the HR was incredible and nearly spot on. No connection issues at all - and an incredible amount of fitness and health tracking and stats.

I absolutely love my Apple Watch that does everything really well, but I still have and love my Garmin which can’t be matched for fitness tracking.

I don't think you comprehended my post.
My biggest beef was with their app and software. Not the devices themselves, necessarily.

But also, the comparison of a Fenix 6s, to an Apple watch is humourous, because what you're saying then, is that in order to get "Apple comperable quality" from Garmin, I need to pay almost $600. Whereas I have Apple quality, from my $225 SE.
Then we get into feature sets. And it would be a personal valuation if those added features of the Fenix equate to almost $400 extra. And depending on your training lifestyle, maybe they are. That's ok.
But that amazing Fenix is still tethered to Garmin's garbage app. That was largely my point.

 

[johnb300m]

I don't get why there is such a heated debate going on between Garmin lovers and haters.

Why does someone need to be 100% right? Even though I like the Ultra for what it is, I prefer my Epix Gen 2 for training. I am finding Garmin's body battery to be scarily accurate vs how I feel, along with stress.

I am normally able to detect pretty easily when I am about to get ill just by keeping track of some of those metrics (mind you, a lot of them use HRV data in one form or another);

EDIT: I intended to sell my Epix Gen 2 but realised Apple isn't there yet to fully provide for what I consider valuable- be it for cycling or running (let alone on the wrist navigation and mapping);

Keeping one for exercise and training and the other as an everyday watch + safety tool + streaming when running somewhere far without my phone.
It is an added bonus that HR and GPS accuracy are as good as they are on the Ultra

I wonder if there's an emotional response aspect to it.
Because, in my experience, if my Garmin device worked well enough, and the app/software did what it was supposed to, I would have LOVED it! It was almost perfect. But there were so many glaring errors in the app that made the experience so so miserable. And before OS9, Apple Watch didn't have very important metrics I wanted, so I felt trapped.

 

[NickYanakiev]

Nothing emotional in my case, I have used Polar, Suunto, Garmin and Apple.

I also use both ios and Android so consider myself to be rather platform and manufacturer agnostic. I value owning both a Garmin and the Ultra, albeit for different reasons as outlined earlier.

 

[NickYanakiev]

I don't think you comprehended my post.
My biggest beef was with their app and software. Not the devices themselves, necessarily.

But also, the comparison of a Fenix 6s, to an Apple watch is humourous, because what you're saying then, is that in order to get "Apple comperable quality" from Garmin, I need to pay almost $600. Whereas I have Apple quality, from my $225 SE.
Then we get into feature sets. And it would be a personal valuation if those added features of the Fenix equate to almost $400 extra. And depending on your training lifestyle, maybe they are. That's ok.
But that amazing Fenix is still tethered to Garmin's garbage app. That was largely my point.

Why do you think GC is garbage?

 

[zeesix]

So I'm trying out the ultra and comparing it to my Fenix 6s. I like the AWU but the native software is lacking quite a bit.

My generally workflow for the Garmin is, I often create routes for hiking, running, biking, etc. on Komoot (*free), which is set up to sync automatically with Garmin Connect (free with a garmin watch). Once I log a workout, the workout gets automatically synced to Strava. Out of the box AWU just can't do this yet. I'm curious if anyone has found a good solution for this.

Also, the other day I wanted to track surfing, and to my surprise it didn't record gps data at all, because it was the surfing activity. Pretty lame, and I'm not sure there is a solution for this other than tracking it as a different activity (not ideal).

It seems like Workoutdoors, backed by a single dev, is an absolute requirement currently for any kind of offline map / routes on this $800 watch. My concern with this is feature implementation takes time like AOD, Action button, offline map navigation, etc.

I think the AWU has the potential to be much better than the Garmin since it has the better hardware, but it needs the software, and this is to say that Garmin's software is generally pretty bad and buggy.

 

[theotherphil]

So I'm trying out the ultra and comparing it to my Fenix 6s. I like the AWU but the native software is lacking quite a bit.

My generally workflow for the Garmin is, I often create routes for hiking, running, biking, etc. on Komoot (*free), which is set up to sync automatically with Garmin Connect (free with a garmin watch). Once I log a workout, the workout gets automatically synced to Strava. Out of the box AWU just can't do this yet. I'm curious if anyone has found a good solution for this.

Also, the other day I wanted to track surfing, and to my surprise it didn't record gps data at all, because it was the surfing activity. Pretty lame, and I'm not sure there is a solution for this other than tracking it as a different activity (not ideal).

It seems like Workoutdoors, backed by a single dev, is an absolute requirement currently for any kind of offline map / routes on this $800 watch. My concern with this is feature implementation takes time like AOD, Action button, offline map navigation, etc.

I think the AWU has the potential to be much better than the Garmin since it has the better hardware, but it needs the software, and this is to say that Garmin's software is generally pretty bad and buggy.

Healthfit can sync Apple Watch workouts to strava and can also sync Komoot data (in fact, it can sync with 25 platforms including intervals.icu - see below). Workoutdoors is a great, low cost option to add offline maps (including topo) and the ability to navigate routes.

Intervals.icu is a great, free website that can sync with the AW via Healthfit. It allows a full overview of your health, wellness and workout metrics and syncs with many services (such as Garmin Connect). It works with pretty much any device so is a great place to collate and analyse all your fitness data.

 

[usmaak]

Healthfit can sync Apple Watch workouts to strava and can also sync Komoot data (in fact, it can sync with 25 platforms including intervals.icu - see below). Workoutdoors is a great, low cost option to add offline maps (including topo) and the ability to navigate routes.

Intervals.icu is a great, free website that can sync with the AW via Healthfit. It allows a full overview of your health, wellness and workout metrics and syncs with many services (such as Garmin Connect). It works with pretty much any device so is a great place to collate and analyse all your fitness data.

workoutdoors is great. One of the things I missed about my Venu was being able to tell when the satellites were actually connected, so I didn’t start my hiking/walking before. The Apple workout app does not have this for some reason. Workoutdoors does. It generally takes 15 seconds or so before it is all connected. That kind of thing is a miss on Apple’s part because starting a walk before satellite is completely connected can affect mileage or at least it did on the GARMIN.

The other thing about my old Venu is that it was a bit weird with mileage. I walk a known path 4 miles a day. I have done this for the last 12 years. The mileage on the Venu has a pretty wide variance of 3.98 - 4.15. I was originally displeased with the Apple watch because it gave me 4.01. But then the next day it gave me 4.01. The variance has been 4.00 - 4.02, with most of the walks being 4.01. I had one walk that was 4.04 and one that was 3.99.

I have a friend I walk with who has the same Venu and their variance is even larger. And if you look at the map of the walk on Garmin Connect, it would routinely show me walking through the middle of people’s homes, cutting corners on streets when I didn’t, and sometimes even starting and ending walks in my back yard or neighbor’s yard. The map I see on walkoutdoors or on the workout app is exact.

In terms of GPS accuracy, my AW wins.

 

[trumptman]

So I'm trying out the ultra and comparing it to my Fenix 6s. I like the AWU but the native software is lacking quite a bit.

My generally workflow for the Garmin is, I often create routes for hiking, running, biking, etc. on Komoot (*free), which is set up to sync automatically with Garmin Connect (free with a garmin watch). Once I log a workout, the workout gets automatically synced to Strava. Out of the box AWU just can't do this yet. I'm curious if anyone has found a good solution for this.

Also, the other day I wanted to track surfing, and to my surprise it didn't record gps data at all, because it was the surfing activity. Pretty lame, and I'm not sure there is a solution for this other than tracking it as a different activity (not ideal).

It seems like Workoutdoors, backed by a single dev, is an absolute requirement currently for any kind of offline map / routes on this $800 watch. My concern with this is feature implementation takes time like AOD, Action button, offline map navigation, etc.

I think the AWU has the potential to be much better than the Garmin since it has the better hardware, but it needs the software, and this is to say that Garmin's software is generally pretty bad and buggy.

I helped my wife with a similar problem. I think you’d just use the actual Komoot Apple Watch app to record your hike, run, bike, etc. It will save to Apple Health. You can use the Strava app or Healthfit app to import them.

 

[sarc]

workoutdoors is great. One of the things I missed about my Venu was being able to tell when the satellites were actually connected, so I didn’t start my hiking/walking before. The Apple workout app does not have this for some reason. Workoutdoors does. It generally takes 15 seconds or so before it is all connected. That kind of thing is a miss on Apple’s part because starting a walk before satellite is completely connected can affect mileage or at least it did on the GARMIN.

The other thing about my old Venu is that it was a bit weird with mileage. I walk a known path 4 miles a day. I have done this for the last 12 years. The mileage on the Venu has a pretty wide variance of 3.98 - 4.15. I was originally displeased with the Apple watch because it gave me 4.01. But then the next day it gave me 4.01. The variance has been 4.00 - 4.02, with most of the walks being 4.01. I had one walk that was 4.04 and one that was 3.99.

I have a friend I walk with who has the same Venu and their variance is even larger. And if you look at the map of the walk on Garmin Connect, it would routinely show me walking through the middle of people’s homes, cutting corners on streets when I didn’t, and sometimes even starting and ending walks in my back yard or neighbor’s yard. The map I see on walkoutdoors or on the workout app is exact.

In terms of GPS accuracy, my AW wins.

Apples workouts app does let you know when you have connected to satellite but only on the ultra. It works really well as it gives haptics as well as shows the blue icon when it is connected.

 

[usmaak]

Apples workouts app does let you know when you have connected to satellite but only on the ultra. It works really well as it gives haptics as well as shows the blue icon when it is connected.

That would be useful for the regular watch.

 

[the future]

Mohs hardness scale isn't "anecdotal evidence"

Well it is if it‘s just one guy claiming it, and he‘s not an expert either. Neither am I, of course, but I‘ve read elsewhere that the way he’s testing here is not exactly scientific.

nor is it just one YouTube video.

It isn‘t? Then link to the others, please.

In short their sapphire glass isn't much better than their normal glass.

Millions upon millions of real-world user experiences disagree with this. Also interesting that you didn‘t comment on the other youtube video that I linked to. Ultra looked pretty tough there, didn‘t it?

 

[msackey]

Well it is if it‘s just one guy claiming it, and he‘s not an expert either. Neither am I, of course, but I‘ve read elsewhere that the way he’s testing here is not exactly scientific.

I have wondered about how JerryRig applies those tools. I would imagine the pressure that one applies those tools does matter, not just the type of tool.

 

[msackey]

Ok, I did some quick search and here's some interesting information from Britannica: https://www.britannica.com/science/Mohs-hardness

If the species being tested is fine-grained, friable, or pulverulent, the test may only loosen grains without testing individual mineral surfaces; thus, certain textures or aggregate forms may hinder or prevent a true hardness determination. For this reason the Mohs test, while greatly facilitating the identification of minerals in the field, is not suitable for accurately gauging the hardness of industrial materials such as steel or ceramics. (For these materials a more precise measure is to be found in the Vickers hardness or Knoop hardness.)

On the internet, it's so easy to conflate fame and popularity with accuracy, isn't it? And from that conflation, a whole slew of assumptions are taken as truths and then we have opinion wars and flame wars framed as truth wars. LOL. Sigh.

 

[xDKP]

That would be useful for the regular watch.

And it SHOULD be available..! It's software.

I have found another way at the moment with GPX Tracker I open and it shows connecting bars of GPS and when its full after 15 seconds I swap to the Fitness app and start my run

 

[johnb300m]

Why do you think GC is garbage?

Ohhh, where to start?

Things were initially ok when I first got it and my first Garmin device, back in 2013.
It was simple, with simple stats, and worked alright on my iPhone 5 at the time.
There were some periodic synch issues, where the device wouldn't synch smoothly, but I never lost data.
The Connect app would crash sometimes, but not any more often than it seemed like other apps.

I later upgraded to a Garmin Vivoactive 3.
Really great "smart" watch and fitness tracker. Hardware wise.
There was a time it had a lot of issues in the earlier years getting my wrist heart rate right. And that was frustrating. I'd have to stop runs, and restart the device a lot. Or futz with the fit on my wrist. But there must've been some later software updates that cured a lot of that.
By that time also, I had an iPhone 6S. The Connect app touted that with the VA3, it would stay constantly synched with my phone and device. And for a while it did. Whenever I'd open the Connect app, it would do a quick synch and all my data would be there. Sometimes I'd open the app and it would be synched already.
This stopped happening over time, and over app updates.

Things started to get buggy, and the synch issues would turn into sometimes lost workout data!
I'd see the data on my device, synch, which would fail, and then the data would be GONE. So my whole bike ride or run would be missing.
Or sometimes the device itself wouldn't even record the workout!
Then I'd have crashing issues with the app, which showed up on my iPhone XS. At this point I'm manually synching everything, and now having Bluetooth connection issues. I'd have to disconnect or reconnect Bluetooth at least 1x a week, sometimes up to 3x.
It was almost routine now where I'd have to kill the device in Connect, and re-connect it as a "new" device.
This would fix things for a few days to a week, but no more than that.

THEN, the big data breach, where I couldn't use the device at all for two weeks. Especially due to NO local synching.
OH, that reminds me. Lots of the synch issues would compound if I didn't have a good internet connection. So that was very frustrating.
Back to the data breach. Where we were given almost NO information. The Garmin forums were a black hole of speculation. Later on, I read something, saying that now that Connect was back online, everything our devices recorded during the outage, would be synched to the service, and we'd be able to review all our data over that time.
I started what turned out to be a very very long synch. And when it was complete............NOTHING. Nada. Gone.
I tried synching again. Nothing. All my data over two weeks was gone.

That very very negative experience just made every little glitch I experienced, even more grating.
The repeated app updates never seemed to fix anything.
The Garmin forums were near useless, except for verifying many of the issues I was having, since others were experiencing the same glitches. But Garmin never supported us or fixed things.

That's when I started looking into Apple watches.
It was the middle of a model refresh so I waited a bit.
I couldn't justify the expense just yet, since the VA3 was still working great.
Until I noticed some battery life suffering, due to natural aging, and I looked into AWs again more seriously.
There was an SE sale on Amazon, and the info release on Watch OS9, that was going to have sleep tracking, HR zones, workout customization etc, and I bit the bullet.
Contrast to my stressful, love/hate relationship with Connect, this AW experience has been nothing but smooth joy.
Everything synchs, everything records, I have most of the useful data I need.
I do miss the FirstBeat stress analysis, because I found it very responsive and active for me. But the AW HRV is an ok stand-in now.
I don't miss the drama of Connect, AT ALL.

 

[trumptman]

Well it is if it‘s just one guy claiming it, and he‘s not an expert either. Neither am I, of course, but I‘ve read elsewhere that the way he’s testing here is not exactly scientific.

It is scientific with regard to that test. I mean your reasoning is absurd. It’s akin to saying that a measuring couple can’t measure correctly if you don’t agree with the person doing the measuring.

Those picks he uses are sold specifically for that purpose and that is their job. There’s nothing complicated about what he is doing. You scratch the mineral with the picks and the level at which it scratches shows the hardness.

It isn‘t? Then link to the others, please.

Your reasoning is broken. I’m not saying it is not anecdotal because lots of people did the same thing. I’m saying it isn’t anecdotal because the hardness scale in question is an agreed upon standard and has standardized picks being sold to use to test that agreed upon standard.

Millions upon millions of real-world user experiences disagree with this. Also interesting that you didn‘t comment on the other youtube video that I linked to. Ultra looked pretty tough there, didn‘t it?

This is strange reasoning. You assume a positive from lack of negative. There are not millions of real world experiences AFFIRMING that the Apple Watch sapphire is appropriate quality and hardness. Per you, they just didn’t complain loud enough for it to be a problem and thus it’s fine.

On the internet, it's so easy to conflate fame and popularity with accuracy, isn't it? And from that conflation, a whole slew of assumptions are taken as truths and then we have opinion wars and flame wars framed as truth wars. LOL. Sigh.

You note a scale that is appropriate for other contexts and then attempt to use it to discredit this hardness scale. That’s very bad reasoning. We don’t use a water filter to purify oil into gas as an analogy. That doesn’t mean if you test water purity and it should be at X after being through a filter and instead it is at Y, that we then use the oil refining to declare the water filter worked just fine.

Apple’s sapphire is substandard and has been on both their camera lenses and watches for quite a while. That’s just the facts.

 

[firstcellosuite]

Anyone know of a way to have Garmin (daily activity tracking+recording activities) contribute toward the Apple activity rings? I find that it works but only intermittently.

Check out Strava. I had the Garmin Connect and Fitness App connected to Strava. When i'd upload a run to Connect it'd push it to Strava which in turn pushed it to the Fitness App. This was about two years ago so things might have changed but at the time it worked really well for me.

 

[zeesix]

I concur that Garmin's software is not great, from the iOS apps (both Connect and Explore), to the mac apps Express (always gotta get lucky for it to find the watch) and Basecamp (don't fall asleep while it loads maps and then randomly crashes), and the web versions. Last I checked you need internet connectivity for iOS Connect to do just about anything useful which is pretty inconvenient when you're off the grid. The other big annoyance for me is the connection to the watch dropping, especially on iOS Explore, or Explore not syncing activities sometimes because it already synced with Connect in which case it will never sync that activity to Explore again. The biggest problem I have encountered are corrupt workouts that happen for some unknown reason.

On the hardware front the OHR sensor on my Fenix 6s Pro just isn't that good, but OHR on the wrist is known to be less accurate, which is why I use a Polar OH1. The whole blue-tint screen fiasco also left a bad taste in my mouth.

With all these poor experiences I was excited to try the Ultra, but I find that Apple just isn't there yet on the software side. I'm not a fan of having to use several 3rd party apps (healthfit and workoutdoors seem to be almost a requirement) to get a closer but still poorer Garmin experience, and pay for them separately as well. It's not the 'just works' experience that Apple is known for.

There are a lot of things I like about the AWU but currently I'm leaning towards returning it and sticking with my Garmin until Apple can deliver on the software, maybe watchOS 10?

 

[Fthree]

I don't get why there is such a heated debate going on between Garmin lovers and haters.

Why does someone need to be 100% right? Even though I like the Ultra for what it is, I prefer my Epix Gen 2 for training. I am finding Garmin's body battery to be scarily accurate vs how I feel, along with stress.

I am normally able to detect pretty easily when I am about to get ill just by keeping track of some of those metrics (mind you, a lot of them use HRV data in one form or another);

EDIT: I intended to sell my Epix Gen 2 but realised Apple isn't there yet to fully provide for what I consider valuable- be it for cycling or running (let alone on the wrist navigation and mapping);

Keeping one for exercise and training and the other as an everyday watch + safety tool + streaming when running somewhere far without my phone.
It is an added bonus that HR and GPS accuracy are as good as they are on the Ultra

I am with you on the BB when its at 5 i feel like im dead lol

 

[PatrickNSF]

I still use both (currently a Forerunner 955 and AW 7 Graphite). But one thing I'm always struck by when I switch back to the Garmin for running is how much easier it is to read the screen quickly while running compared to my AW.

I use a 5-field layout, with HR zones, distance, lap pace, average pace and elapsed time. I've never found any layout with any AW app that gives me this data displayed in a format that's so easy to read.

 

[262Runnr]

I still use both (currently a Forerunner 955 and AW 7 Graphite). But one thing I'm always struck by when I switch back to the Garmin for running is how much easier it is to read the screen quickly while running compared to my AW.

I use a 5-field layout, with HR zones, distance, lap pace, average pace and elapsed time. I've never found any layout with any AW app that gives me this data displayed in a format that's so easy to read

I've owned a lot of running watches of the year, most were Garmin. I've never been a fan of the touchscreen when it comes to a workout. I like having a button to press for pause/start/end....period. There have been many times when I inadvertently hit the "end" or "pause" on the touchscreen and messed up my whole workout.

I'm currently using an old, reliable Fenix 3HR without any music capabilities.....so when I run I have my AW6 on my left wrist for music and my Fenix3HR on my right for my run.
I have to say that Apple music is the easiest, and best way to run with music. It is so easy to make playlists and download whatever you want from any device. I like the idea of no having to transfer music from computer to watch.