Belgian Judge May Block Apple Websites Over 'Misleading' Warranty Information

[kd5jos]

Entitlement = delusion

This is already built into the base price

It is? When did that happen?

which is one of the reasons why we pay quite a lot more than in the US for Apple products.

And here I thought it had to do with import tariffs and what the market will support.

The whole thing is ridiculous anyway as it is perfectly clear on the website what consumers are entitled to in each country.

I can say you are entitled to flap you arms and fly to the moon. Just because someone lives under a delusion of entitlement, that does NOT make it feasible or a fact.

The funniest part is what happens when entitlements collide (and contradict each other). Then it's just the loudest most ridiculous entertainer that wins, while everyone else, looses.

Example? Oh, you want an example? Stop me if you heard this one, a lesbian walks in to an Islamic barber shop. She asks for a business haircut. What happens? Nothing. According to Sharia law the barber can not touch the woman, and is forbidden from interacting with a lesbian.

He's entitled to practice his religion.
She's entitled to equal protection under the law.
I'm entitled to laugh about the level of entitlement people think they are supposed to get....

I believe the story comes from Quebec, Canada. Google it.

 

[Swytch]

Apple's warranty is always a little bit dodgy, I get the impression they simply don't want you to get your stuff fixed for free if it fails after one year and want to you to pay for AppleCare instead, while other companies are very clear, saying things like "we provide 3 years of warranty", and you know straight away what that means: if it breaks within 3 years, they fix it. With Apple, you never know!

I think that a computer should be expected to last 3 years. It's the normal obsolescence period, and considering it has hardly any moving parts, any fault is the manufacturer's fault unless you dropped it or spilled water on it.

If you buy a £2500 computer, and after 13 months your screen dies, are you going to feel like it's normal to pay another £700 to get it repaired? Are you going to say "well I only bought a computer to last a year, not more, so it's okay".

A cheap car will cost you about twice as much as an expensive Mac, and will come with far more than double the amount of warranty. Considering you can live without a car but not without a computer, I believe computers should have more warranty, especially considering that a car can fail due to many reasons while a computer usually only fails because of manufacturer defect.

im not sure were to begin explaining all that is incorrect in your post...

a car that cheap would have to be used and has no warranty unless you pay extra for one... a computer is much easier to live without than a car... and computers usually do not fail from manufacturer defect, it is usually from in proper care or just age because they die faster than car parts, and most people do zero maintenance on computers, cars usually get more attention from people - at least an oil change every few years - on a computer Im surprised if someone actually has antivirus set up correctly to scan weekly - and thats just for the software - no one ever even cleans their computer.

Fact is, with computers after any amount of use on a device it becomes near impossible to determine if any problems are from use or a manufacturers defect. I am pretty sure almost every single warranty replacement on electronics i have had was not necessarily something that was wrong when it was sold to me. There are far too many environmental variables to consider. Only if something goes wrong within the first like 48 hours of usage time (not necessarily in a row) is it probably a manufacturers defect, after that who is to say that something as simple as the humidity in your house or grease on your fingers didnt damage it?

Nothing lasts forever...

 

[AppleMark]

You don't get 5-6 years warranty. You have a 5-6 years notice period. That's a totally different thing. After 4 years and 11 months, you would have to prove that the product shouldn't break after that time. Good luck. If you buy a marble statue for the garden, that's expected to last for tens of years, so you should get that fixed after 4 years and 11 months. But a computer isn't expected to last that long.

It matters not what you want to call it, warranty or notice period. It is a period that warranties the item against manufacture defect that should not occur within a reasonable time frame. That is the fact of the matter here.

You say "good luck", however luck has nothing to do with it.

I know from experience just last year when I 'won' my case against John Lewis based on a 2009 Macbook air.

I purchased it in 2009 from John Lewis and it developed a the hinge snapping issue which took out the monitor after about 12 months. Apple at the time refused to acknowledge a recall or fault and so it was boxed, stored and forgotten about. However last year I noticed my rights advertised by Apple and dug out the MBA and the receipt.

It was not easy as John Lewis would not accept my claim for a long while. Even though Apple did say they would have been prepared to repair it, however as they did not sell me the computer I needed JL to do this.

Long story made short, after about 4 weeks and several letters, I not only argued my case. I also argued that I no longer wanted a repair, as I lost 3 years of use due the the recall that I was not written to about even though it was a registered product. And that if the product was repaired it would soon be obsolete based on Apple's 5 year cycle and that it is many OS generations behind.

The result was that, just prior to registering a small claims court claim, I accepted a new 2013 MBA as full and final settlement.

Also your comments about a computer not expecting to last 5 years are equally wrong, based on the responses and admissions I received from the respective legal departments of JL and Apple last year.

Previously I have also had an iPod touch replaced after 16 months by Apple as the battery failed and I refused to accept that they could determine that it was caused by mistreatment on my part.

It really depends how you go about your claim and the level of tenacity you are prepared or able to put into it. However if you are relying on luck, or the goodwill of the vendor then you are likely to not get anywhere.

 

[charlituna]

Well, they are (most likely deliberately) misunderstanding something. The fault is not "microphone doesn't work". The fault is "microphone was built with a fault which meant it didn't last the five years it should last,

No one does anyone codify anything like 'five years'. They say reasonable length of time. And they clarify in these laws that the issue is 'at time of purchase' concerns which is why it goes back to the seller etc

 

[everything-i]

It is? When did that happen?



And here I thought it had to do with import tariffs and what the market will support.



I can say you are entitled to flap you arms and fly to the moon. Just because someone lives under a delusion of entitlement, that does NOT make it feasible or a fact.

The funniest part is what happens when entitlements collide (and contradict each other). Then it's just the loudest most ridiculous entertainer that wins, while everyone else, looses.

Example? Oh, you want an example? Stop me if you heard this one, a lesbian walks in to an Islamic barber shop. She asks for a business haircut. What happens? Nothing. According to Sharia law the barber can not touch the woman, and is forbidden from interacting with a lesbian.

He's entitled to practice his religion.
She's entitled to equal protection under the law.
I'm entitled to laugh about the level of entitlement people think they are supposed to get....

I believe the story comes from Quebec, Canada. Google it.

Yes it is, there are many factors that increase prices for products sold outside the US and one of them is going to be support costs. There are some import tariffs and extra taxes but they don't account for the full price difference.

Your rant about entitlement is ridiculous, here in Europe we are given two years warranty on these products as a minimum by law and if we don't get it we simply report the seller to our trading standards organisations and they sort it out. This is about consumers being protected against defective or poor quality goods not about entitlement. Nothing collides with this and sellers are able to increase prices to factor this in if they wish. This is what happens and that's all there is to it.

My comment is about some one in Brussels making a noise about nothing because the facts are clearly shown on Apples web site and there are other companies that have a far worse record than Apple on this who never see this sort of treatment.

 

[LostSoul80]

The web site comparison looks pretty clear to me.

Very clear. Except, that's not from the belgian store.

 

[Oletros]

My comment is about some one in Brussels making a noise about nothing because the facts are clearly shown on Apples web site

No, it isn't clearly shown on the BELGIAN Apple website

 

[everything-i]

Very clear. Except, that's not from the belgian store.

The Belgian store has the same text only translated into French or Dutch. All sites for EU member countries have the same wording.

 

[gnasher729]

AppleMark, what you described is exactly what I said: The defect happened shortly after twelve months. The notice period means that you have five years time to complain and get it fixed. But only because it broke far within the "reasonable time", that is shortly after twelve months. If it had broken after 59 months, they wouldn't have fixed it.

It's like taking your Mac on a six week holiday which you start before the warranty runs out. If your Mac breaks _before_ the warranty runs out and you return at your store at home five weeks later, they have to fix it. (You might take some witness statements to prove it broke within the warranty time).

 

[Oletros]

The Belgian store has the same text only translated into French or Dutch. All sites for EU member countries have the same wording.

Really, can you provide a link to that image on the Belgian or Spanish store?

 

[everything-i]

No, it isn't clearly shown on the BELGIAN Apple website

Looks pretty much the same to me only in French.

 

[Oletros]

Looks pretty much the same to me only in French.

Link?

 

[gnasher729]

The Belgian store has the same text only translated into French or Dutch. All sites for EU member countries have the same wording.

The Belgian website (the one I looked at) looked different from the Netherlands one. I might not have seen the right link because of language problems, but it didn't seem to be there. The UK and Netherlands website have the same display which I think is easy to understand unless someone is really thick or intentionally doesn't understand it; I didn't find that on the Belgian site.

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No, it isn't clearly shown on the BELGIAN Apple website

To avoid confusion: There are _two_ Belgian Apple websites, in French and Dutch.

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No one does anyone codify anything like 'five years'. They say reasonable length of time. And they clarify in these laws that the issue is 'at time of purchase' concerns which is why it goes back to the seller etc

The UK laws say that there is a claim period of five or six years. Some people think it means "warranty", which it doesn't. It means you have to appear at the store with your complaint within five years. The product must last for a "reasonable length of time", but if it doesn't, you have quite a long time to complain. Obviously you might be in a weaker legal position. If you claim your Mac broke after two days, and you waited five years to complain, it may be hard to prove that it did indeed break after two days.

 

[everything-i]

Really, can you provide a link to that image on the Belgian or Spanish store?

This is the link from the section where apple care is selected when purchasing, it is the same as the UK site except the warranty information is in PDF form on the Belgian site and provides only references to EU laws as the UK ones are not applicable in this case.

http://images.apple.com/befr/legal/statutory-warranty/Belgium_French_Statutory_Warranty.pdf

This clearly says that a manufacturer 2 year warranty is provided. Not sure if this is the same on the Belgian Dutch version of their site because I can't read Dutch.

 

[Oletros]

This is the link from the section where apple care is selected when purchasing, it is the same as the UK site except t

No, it is not the same as the UK. It is hidden inside a PDF so no, it is not clearly staten like you said.

 

[baryon]

im not sure were to begin explaining all that is incorrect in your post...

a car that cheap would have to be used and has no warranty unless you pay extra for one... a computer is much easier to live without than a car... and computers usually do not fail from manufacturer defect, it is usually from in proper care or just age because they die faster than car parts, and most people do zero maintenance on computers, cars usually get more attention from people - at least an oil change every few years - on a computer Im surprised if someone actually has antivirus set up correctly to scan weekly - and thats just for the software - no one ever even cleans their computer.

Fact is, with computers after any amount of use on a device it becomes near impossible to determine if any problems are from use or a manufacturers defect. I am pretty sure almost every single warranty replacement on electronics i have had was not necessarily something that was wrong when it was sold to me. There are far too many environmental variables to consider. Only if something goes wrong within the first like 48 hours of usage time (not necessarily in a row) is it probably a manufacturers defect, after that who is to say that something as simple as the humidity in your house or grease on your fingers didnt damage it?

Nothing lasts forever...

Well, here's Kia's website: http://www.kia.co.uk/new-cars/range.aspx

The cheapest car on that pages is £7795

Apple's site: http://store.apple.com/uk-business/buy-mac/mac-pro

Mac Pro can cost £3299, and much more with a screen. That's about half of the price of the NEW car I mentioned above.

Kia provides 7 years of warranty. Seven! (http://www.kia.co.uk/new-cars/7-year-warranty.aspx)
Apple provides 1 year. Seven times less.

Is that really fair?

And you're not right in saying that a computer that is not cared for will fail. Anti virus and software has nothing to do with hardware failures. That's all software and does not affect the failure of, say, the graphics card, screen, fans, or other components. So what does? Dropping the computer? Dipping it in water? What else? An extremely dusty environment? Maybe, but that's about it. Whereas a car will have problems no matter what you do to it. And yet the car manufacturer takes responsibility, even if it's probably your fault! While Apple takes no responsibility, even though it's probably their fault.

How do you explain a failed GPU or a dead screen? What could you have possibly done to the computer that could have caused that? Not have installed anti virus, really?

 

[everything-i]

No, it is not the same as the UK. It is hidden inside a PDF so no, it is not clearly staten like you said.

But you get to it by clicking the same link as the UK site so what's the problem. If they have a problem with PDF they should simply ask Apple to provide it as an HTML page rather than saying the information is not there and threatening to block the site. Over reaction much.

 

[AppleMark]

AppleMark, what you described is exactly what I said: The defect happened shortly after twelve months. The notice period means that you have five years time to complain and get it fixed. But only because it broke far within the "reasonable time", that is shortly after twelve months. If it had broken after 59 months, they wouldn't have fixed it.

It's like taking your Mac on a six week holiday which you start before the warranty runs out. If your Mac breaks _before_ the warranty runs out and you return at your store at home five weeks later, they have to fix it. (You might take some witness statements to prove it broke within the warranty time).

Not in my case. Also your analogy is not correct based on my experience.

Although I stated that it broke just after 12 month's, they did not accept this. In fact that was the original 'legal' basis of dismissing my claim as they tried to initially assert that it could have just broken due to user damage the week before and some 4 years and 6 months after purchase.

They also tried to dismiss the fact that there was a warranty recall, as Apple's hinge replacement program had just ended and I neglected to participate...

However, it was the continual referral to the 6 year period and the fact that an expiry of a recall period could not prejudice my statutory rights, was partially the basis of my ability to win.

 

[Swytch]

How do you explain a failed GPU or a dead screen? What could you have possibly done to the computer that could have caused that? Not have installed anti virus, really?

Simple - opened the case without proper grounding, plugging in a cable that is not properly shielded - poor power condition in your house. too much humidity or heat or dust in the room computer is used in. Leaving it on constantly without sleep mode or shutting off the monitor at least.

P.S. serious lack of comprehension skills on this forum, i did not say antivirus protected hardware, i pointed out that most people cant even do the simple task of installing antivirus (that is supposed to be common knowledge is necessary on windows) so how can you expect that they take care of the hardware in any sort of way? and yeah, the average consumer bangs on the computer anytime it is not responding in as timely a manner as they would like - another reason computers fail.

And sorry, we dont have cars that cheap in the US - but Kia does not have to provide a 7 year warranty and if you are not happy with apples warranty dont buy apple. and car companies also have a different policy when it comes to warranties - different industry all together. And also, car companies make way more profit on cars especially with financing incentives - they can afford to have warranties set up like they do - because you are in fact paying for them in the purchase price... I would not be surprised to find out that the cost to kia on that car is the same as the cost to apple on the computer.

Lastly, personally i buy apple products because they dont need a warranty - they just work - and i am happy that my prices are lower because apple doesnt force a warranty i dont need (because they would just raise the price to cover the new warranty). As plenty have said prices are higher in EU because of the government forced warranties that it sounds like dont cover much. Insurance would be more worth the money anyways...

 

[baryon]

Simple - opened the case without proper grounding, plugging in a cable that is not properly shielded - poor power condition in your house. too much humidity or heat or dust in the room computer is used in. Leaving it on constantly without sleep mode or shutting off the monitor at least.

P.S. serious lack of comprehension skills on this forum, i did not say antivirus protected hardware, i pointed out that most people cant even do the simple task of installing antivirus (that is supposed to be common knowledge is necessary on windows) so how can you expect that they take care of the hardware in any sort of way? and yeah, the average consumer bangs on the computer anytime it is not responding in as timely a manner as they would like - another reason computers fail.

And sorry, we dont have cars that cheap in the US - but Kia does not have to provide a 7 year warranty and if you are not happy with apples warranty dont buy apple. and car companies also have a different policy when it comes to warranties - different industry all together. And also, car companies make way more profit on cars especially with financing incentives - they can afford to have warranties set up like they do - because you are in fact paying for them in the purchase price... I would not be surprised to find out that the cost to kia on that car is the same as the cost to apple on the computer.

Lastly, personally i buy apple products because they dont need a warranty - they just work - and i am happy that my prices are lower because apple doesnt force a warranty i dont need (because they would just raise the price to cover the new warranty). As plenty have said prices are higher in EU because of the government forced warranties that it sounds like dont cover much. Insurance would be more worth the money anyways...

Do you really think a significant number of computer failures are due to static discharges when disassembling the computer, banging the computer too hard, or dust? Maybe theres a few of those out there, but the vast majority of computer failures are just unexplained failures that no one bothers to check and are not due to misuse by the customer.

Let's take an example that affected me. Some Late 2008 Unibody MacBook Pros used a material in the GPU that caused it to become brittle and break after a certain number of heating up and cooling down cycles under normal usage. Many people had failing GPUs that failed approximately one year after purchase. There was no way to prove what happened, as no one was going to disassemble each computer and check it under a microscope. I paid £1500 for a computer that one year later was a brick. The cost of the motherboard was £600. I repeat: it was NOT my fault in any way that the GPU failed. The computer sat on my desk for a year and had light, normal use as intended. The following year the screen failed. Not because I never put the computer to sleep. It just failed, for no apparent reason. Repair: £400. Then the battery swelled up and broke the case. Whose fault? No I did not use a 3rd party charger or dip it in water. Repair: £90. Then the DVD drive failed. Why? Because the laser got dirty. I used it about 10 times over 5 years. How did the laser get dirty? Did I play dirty CDs? Did I blow dirt into the CD slot? No. All this within a year or two of purchase of the world's top-catergory computer from the world's leading computer company.

I spent as much on just repairing the computer as I did on buying it. Apple made £2800 off me and all I got was a £1400 computer. There is no way this is fair and should be totally normal like it is today. A company should be responsible for the failures of its products for the amount of time that the product is expected to work.

When you buy something, you buy it for a certain amount of reasonable time. That's why there is warranty. But the warranty should reflect the amount of time the product is expected to function. Apparently Apple does not expect their products to keep functioning 1 year after purchase, otherwise why would they not provide more warranty? Who wants to face the possibility of having to buy a new Mac every single year?

 

[Swytch]

Do you really think a significant number of computer failures are due to static discharges when disassembling the computer, banging the computer too hard, or dust? Maybe theres a few of those out there, but the vast majority of computer failures are just unexplained failures that no one bothers to check and are not due to misuse by the customer.

Let's take an example that affected me. Some Late 2008 Unibody MacBook Pros used a material in the GPU that caused it to become brittle and break after a certain number of heating up and cooling down cycles under normal usage. Many people had failing GPUs that failed approximately one year after purchase. There was no way to prove what happened, as no one was going to disassemble each computer and check it under a microscope. I paid £1500 for a computer that one year later was a brick. The cost of the motherboard was £600. I repeat: it was NOT my fault in any way that the GPU failed. The computer sat on my desk for a year and had light, normal use as intended. The following year the screen failed. Not because I never put the computer to sleep. It just failed, for no apparent reason. Repair: £400. Then the battery swelled up and broke the case. Whose fault? No I did not use a 3rd party charger or dip it in water. Repair: £90. Then the DVD drive failed. Why? Because the laser got dirty. I used it about 10 times over 5 years. How did the laser get dirty? Did I play dirty CDs? Did I blow dirt into the CD slot? No. All this within a year or two of purchase of the world's top-catergory computer from the world's leading computer company.

I spent as much on just repairing the computer as I did on buying it. Apple made £2800 off me and all I got was a £1400 computer. There is no way this is fair and should be totally normal like it is today. A company should be responsible for the failures of its products for the amount of time that the product is expected to work.

When you buy something, you buy it for a certain amount of reasonable time. That's why there is warranty. But the warranty should reflect the amount of time the product is expected to function. Apparently Apple does not expect their products to keep functioning 1 year after purchase, otherwise why would they not provide more warranty? Who wants to face the possibility of having to buy a new Mac every single year?

LOL - yes in fact the majority of computer failures are due to static... computers are more vulnerable to static than most people think. And your statement is proof of the fact that most people do not realize this. It does not appear to be static at fault, but this is because you will not see the effects of a static discharge for months to years after the event. The "Unexplained Errors" you mention - those are errors due to static from an earlier date.

I am sorry you had a bad experience - sometimes that happens, such is life. Does not sound like most of the problems had anything to do with the way you took care of it, but thats the problem even if you took care of it or think you did, there are environmental factors not even you could have known that could have affected it... and i dont know why you end with asking how the laser got dirty... you started out answering your own question.. it got dirty because you didnt use it (after 5 years would have been dirty if you used it also) - did you ever clean it? - and 5 years is a long time for a burner to last.

in response to "When you buy something, you buy it for a certain amount of reasonable time." - wrong, no when you buy something, you buy it... thats it. Now if it has a warranty than you can expect it will be replaced if it doesnt last a certain amount of time basically making it so you can expect to have it for a reasonable amount of time, but even with a warranty it could get stolen or lost... and then you can no longer expect to have it for the length of the warranty...

companies do not have to make a product last a certain amount of time and companies are not responsible. In fact there is no reason a company should have to do anything... unless they want to please customers and sell more products. If you are not happy with Apple's warranty, and feel that them offering a 1 year warranty only means it will last a year and this is not acceptable to you, then dont buy Apple products.

 

[Plutonius]

1) Stop selling Applecare in the EU.
2) Cover all items in the EU as if they had Applecare.
3) Raise the price of all products sold in the EU accordingly.

Apple has to follow all laws in the EU when selling product there but Apple is allowed to set their own prices.

For those in the EU that are complaining about the prices, you should switch to an alternate product if you believe that the product is not worth the price. Apple is just another company and you should be buying what's best for you.

 

[baryon]

1) Stop selling Applecare in the EU.
2) Cover all items in the EU as if they had Applecare.
3) Raise the price of all products sold in the EU accordingly.

Apple has to follow all laws in the EU when selling product there but Apple is allowed to set their own prices.

For those in the EU that are complaining about the prices, you should switch to an alternate product if you believe that the product is not worth the price. Apple is just another company and you should be buying what's best for you.

Apple has already done point number 3), it just needs to get on with the rest now!

 

[Plutonius]

Apple has already done point number 3), it just needs to get on with the rest now!

You may not like the prices now but Apple should raise them more and give all EU buyers free Applecare.