BMW M1 -- I want one

[mpw]

Off the top of my head I'd have
an Alfa as opposed to a BMW
A Noble M400 instead of a Porsche
and a late edition Lambo Miura instead of a Ferrari.


Edit: Actually I'd rather have a Citroen DS or a Lancia Integrale instead of a BMW

I agree that the DS is a great classic, and having driven one in the early 90's can confirm the Intergrale's both a classic and cracking drive.

Unfortunately neither of these or the Miura have been built for 30+ years or ~15years for the Intergrale. I assume you don't consider any classic Ferrari, Porsche or even a classic BMW imaginative then.

Alfas share too many parts with other models, who want badge enginering? The Noble, while a good car, also shares major parts with less imaginative cars, and is also a very low volume brand. Maybe some of those people driving Porsches would like to buy a Noble but can't risk not having a local dealer to support them when it goes wrong, which it is more likely to do than a Porsche.

As far as I'm concerned there isn't an Alfa available today(new) to take my money over a BMW in the same market segment. I'd consider a Noble M14 over some Porsches but would still spend my money on the Porsche unless Noble can offer the same dealer service locally. And I'd take a F430 before either Lambo's.

 

[bartelby]

Hmmm, R32? Nice but I'd go for an Alfa 147 GTA.

 

[mpw]

Nah... get a Focus ST, by all accounts it's better than both and pretty much on a par with a Porsche Cayman. It's that good. And it sounds unfookingbelievable.

It must be selling either very well or not at all 'cause my local Ford dealer got more STs than all the standard Focus' on the forecourt.

 

[iGav]

Hmmm, R32? Nice but I'd go for an Alfa 147 GTA.

I'd agree with that... the 147 GTA oozes style.

I don't get VW's whole 'R' brand at all... they should've badged the R32 as a GTi.

It must be selling either very well or not at all 'cause my local Ford dealer got more STs than all the standard Focus' on the forecourt.

No idea, though I doubt they'll have problems shifting them.

Are they still making the 300bhp 4WD RS version?

 

[floriflee]

If we are talking of foreign cars we lust after then what thread would be complete without discussing the Tata? I mean... check out the ample leg room, head room, and storage space... not to mention the standard luggage rack large enough to store additional family members or just random people on the street (if that's your fancy).

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Nah... get a Focus ST, by all accounts it's better than both and pretty much on a par with a Porsche Cayman. It's that good. And it sounds unfookingbelievable.

All right, that's enough. Don't tease me with cars I can't get in the states.

They DO sell a Focus ST here, but it is sold only as a sedan and I don't think it is anything like the Euro ST. Bigger engine I think but I can almost guarantee that it doesn't have the same suspension.

They don't sell the current R32 here, or even the new Golf. yet. We still get the Golf IV.

I can't get any French cars.

And I can't get the one I'd REALLY want, the Alfa Romeo Brera. Or even the 147GTA.

 

[mpw]

...I can't get any French cars...

You lucky, lucky bastard.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Commies get driven by chauffeurs.

No, limousine liberals and Stalinists get driven by chauffeurs. Most commies don't drive anyway, unless they are from california, in which case they drive a Honda Insight or biodiesel-powered 1970s Merc 300D.

You lucky, lucky bastard.

Ah, but you forget - I may not be exposed to French cars but I AM awash in a sea of awful American cars.

 

[bartelby]

the Alfa Romeo Brera.

I'd forgotten about the Brera.
Mmmmmm.

 

[bartelby]

Unfortunately neither of these or the Miura have been built for 30+ years or ~15years for the Intergrale. I assume you don't consider any classic Ferrari, Porsche or even a classic BMW imaginative then.

Who said I had to pick a new car?
The DS and the Miura are my 2 all time favourite cars.
Looks wise there aren't really any modern cars that look as good as these two.

The only Ferrari's would be a Dino or a 250 GTO.



The Brera would take my money in a second!!!
There are plenty of Noble dealers in the UK, so that's not a problem.
There's one 10 minutes from my house.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I'd forgotten about the Brera.
Mmmmmm.

<filthy pics>

Stop posting that auto porn!

 

[mpw]

Who said I had to pick a new car?...
...Looks wise there aren't really any modern cars that look as good as these two...
...The Brera would take my money in a second!!!...

Sorry I didn't realise we were choosing cars that were were both no longer made and not yet released, I was limiting myself to cars that you could walk into the dealer and buy today.

You're lucky to live 10mins from one of the 7 UK Noble dealers, my nearest is at least 250 miles and several hours away which isn't really convenient.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

You're lucky to live 10mins from one of the 7 UK Noble dealers, my nearest is at least 250 miles and several hours away which isn't really convenient.

Quit whining (or should I say whinging? ), add a zero you your distance from a Noble dealer and you'll get mine. Plus it wouldn't be road-legal even if I DID have one.

TVRs are nicer looking than the Noble but the Noble is so very cool.

My dad actually owned a TVR, it was a 1968 (or maybe '69?) Vixen S1. Not exactly the wild performance of today's TVRs but I wish he hadn't sold it. When I was little I used to sit in it and pretend I was a race car driver....

 

[bartelby]

Stop posting that auto porn!

Just be thankful the Autodelta site isn't working for me at the moment!!!

 

[iGav]

TVRs are nicer looking than the Noble but the Noble is so very cool.

I really don't see what the attraction is with Nobles. *whooshes over head*

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I really don't see what the attraction is with Nobles. *whooshes over head*

Well, I can't argue for it too hard, since I've never seen one in person, much less driven one, but I like the concept.

One thing I wish they would get rid of is that silly spoiler - it may work but it doesn't look good.

EDIT: Plus I can actually BUY a Noble in the states - and it's left hand drive too. Their dealer is even in my home state, just a few hours drive away! A little expensive though - a 'vette Z06 is cheaper.

 

[bartelby]

One thing I wish they would get rid of is that silly spoiler - it may work but it doesn't look good.

Take off the spoiler and the car would be more undriveable than the first Audi TTs before they added the 3 inch shelf on the back.

In real life the spoiler isn't so off putting.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Take off the spoiler and the car would be more undriveable than the first Audi TTs before they added the 3 inch shelf on the back.

In real life the spoiler isn't so off putting.

Then put an 3 inch shelf on the back of the Noble. From a performance standpoint I don't mind it at all but it looks very riceboy. I mean, what if the Dino had a spoiler like that? :eek

 

[jazzmfk]

Nah... get a Focus ST, by all accounts it's better than both and pretty much on a par with a Porsche Cayman. It's that good. And it sounds unfookingbelievable.

iGav, this is the second thread where you've compared the Focus ST with a Cayman. Now, I'm from the US, so I would never, ever consider placing the words "Ford Focus" and "performance car" in the same sentence. I am aware, though, that the Euro versions of, oh, just about everything are vastly superior to what they send over to this side of the pond - that is, if they bother to send it over in the first place.

I enjoy your posts, and often agree with what you say, so I decided to take your word for it and find out what I could about the Euro Focus ST. Generally speaking, there was high praise for the sound, the chassis, and the torque. What an ugly snout, though! But at least the rear end was really ugly, too! (One review's headline was "Nice chassis....sorry about the face.") They quoted a 0-60 time of 6.5 seconds.

The Cayman, however, is pretty stunning in person - much better than in pictures (where I think it looks pretty good to begin with....). It's taller in the middle than I would have thought - but the design just works. It gets high praise for the engine, sound, balance, handling, and driveability. They quoted a 0-62 time of 5.4.

Now, mind you, I didn't do exhaustive research (no pun intended...), but still - putting these two cars on "pretty much even par" is a bit of a stretch, no? Most reviews were putting it on par and/or slightly better than the Euro Golf V.

MFK

 

[bartelby]

Then put an 3 inch shelf on the back of the Noble. From a performance standpoint I don't mind it at all but it looks very riceboy. I mean, what if the Dino had a spoiler like that? :eek

The Noble M12 has nearly double the BHP that a 1967 Dino (and an Audi TT) had (310bhp and 168bhp respectively) and nearly double the torque.

The M400 has 425bhp.

I think the Nobles are in need of more downforce at the rear than a Dino and a TT...

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I am aware, though, that the Euro versions of, oh, just about everything are vastly superior to what they send over to this side of the pond - that is, if they bother to send it over in the first place.

Euro versions are usually more stiffly sprung (sometimes too stiff, like the A3) and have more engine choices. Hatchbacks are far more popular in Europe so there are more of them available, and many are very good.

But not necessarily better. The US Focus is still a very good car - a bit softer and without the bottom or top of the line engines, but still very good.

The Cayman, however, is pretty stunning in person - much better than in pictures (where I think it looks pretty good to begin with....). It's taller in the middle than I would have thought - but the design just works. It gets high praise for the engine, sound, balance, handling, and driveability. They quoted a 0-62 time of 5.4.

When the Cayman was first announced, I thought it was very cool. Then I saw one in person...it has a ghetto booty, a very ugly rear end. It is cheaper than a 911, yet it is still very expensive.

People whine that it isn't a 911. I don't care about that. Just because it isn't a 911 doesn't mean it isn't a legit performance car. I'd rather have a Cayman than a Boxter or Cayenne (YUCK), but it's too expensive above all for what it delivers - for around the same money I'd rather have a Corvette Z06 or Lotus Exige. Or an S4 or M3.

 

[jazzmfk]

...snip...

When the Cayman was first announced, I thought it was very cool. Then I saw one in person...it has a ghetto booty, a very ugly rear end. It is cheaper than a 911, yet it is still very expensive.

People whine that it isn't a 911. I don't care about that. Just because it isn't a 911 doesn't mean it isn't a legit performance car. I'd rather have a Cayman than a Boxter or Cayenne (YUCK), but it's too expensive above all for what it delivers - for around the same money I'd rather have a Corvette Z06 or Lotus Exige. Or an S4 or M3.

The S4 and M3 would be excellent choices. And, dare I say, even practical, from a back-seat kinda perspective. The Lotus - well, it would be nice to go to the grocery store once in awhile without being stared at. C'mon, admit it, you just stare at them when they go by. And the 'Vette - well, I don't know, there's just something about the interior that bothers me. I've not been in a Z06 while it was moving, only parked at a show - but I understand that the performance is incredible for the price. I don't know, I just kept looking around for the 8 track player or something.

The guys in the Porsche Club who have actually driven the Cayman are universal in their praise for the thing. And, this is just a hunch, but if you have any use for a slightly used Cayman engine, I think that plenty of them will be available in the not-too-distant future, as guys with more money than they know what to do with will soon be trying to put a 997 engine in the middle of their brand-new Cayman.

Me? I think I'd take one o'them used Cayman engines and try to stuff it into a well-sorted 914 shell, that's what I'd be doing. Now THAT car would kill bugs fast, if you catch my drift....

MFK

 

[Lord Blackadder]

And the 'Vette - well, I don't know, there's just something about the interior that bothers me. I've not been in a Z06 while it was moving, only parked at a show - but I understand that the performance is incredible for the price. I don't know, I just kept looking around for the 8 track player or something.

The Corvette has, I think, completely shed its hilbilly sportscar image. Or should have anyway. Yes, you won't confuse the interior with that of a Ferrari. But it is a very high performance car, for a very good price. And the only Chevy I'd ever buy.

The guys in the Porsche Club who have actually driven the Cayman are universal in their praise for the thing. And, this is just a hunch, but if you have any use for a slightly used Cayman engine, I think that plenty of them will be available in the not-too-distant future, as guys with more money than they know what to do with will soon be trying to put a 997 engine in the middle of their brand-new Cayman.

Whatever the Cayman's faults are, poor performance isn't one of them, to be sure. I still think that the 996-gen was THE porsche. Along with the 959...

 

[mpw]

...The Lotus - well, it would be nice to go to the grocery store once in awhile without being stared at. C'mon, admit it, you just stare at them when they go by...

If you want to be stared at get a Rolls-Royce Phantom. I saw the first one in the flesh last week, all black with UK plates 'RRR1', and I could've been walking down the street naked with Paris Hilton on a lead and nobody would've noticed me! The only time I've seen a whole street, no exceptions, stop what they're doing and watch a car drive by.

 

[iGav]

but still - putting these two cars on "pretty much even par" is a bit of a stretch, no? Most reviews were putting it on par and/or slightly better than the Euro Golf V.

"pretty much on a par" not "even par" heheh.

But it's not me... it's Autocar Magazine, they drove the Cayman, ST and new MX-5 from England to Val Thorens in the French Alps and to quote them...

But the Focus was transcendent. At least 95% of the time it had the Cayman's moves covered.

and...

As rapidly as Towler and the Cayman are travelling, keeping up isn't a problem. I find myself measuring out the ST's performance as I need it - and there always seems more to come

The article is full of similar praise for the ST throughout the article, and whilst it's true that the ST loses out in acceleration, and top speed... by all accounts it's cross country ability is nothing short of spectacular.

The fact that this car is even mentioned along side a car sporting a Porsche badge is frankly quite remarkable, and the fact that the reporters felt that it had the Cayman's moves covered at least 95% of the time speaks volumes.

Of course the Cayman edges it, but the ST was the only one of the 3 to actually make it to Val Thorens, and judging by the comments I've read, and knowing Ford's history of making incredible drivers cars, I don't feel that making a comment such as "pretty much on a par" is neither inaccurate, nor sensationalist.

The ST REALLY is that good.