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There was a period where I found it necessary to boot into OS 9, but I don't have to any more... the things that were not working via classic now are.

But I am doing something officially non-approved by Apple... My version of OS 9 for classic is 9.1. I simply cannot upgrade it to 9.2.2 without losing the registration on several of my illustrator and photoshop plug ins, or having to reinstall printer drivers. And guess what? To reinstall the printer drivers, I WOULD have to boot into OS 9.

But everything is stable for now.

For most of those having to boot into 9 I hope it is a case of NEED rather than want... I don't know anyone that has actually spent a month in OS X that even wants to deal with the classic layer if they do not have to.

Quartz Extreme should get your slower mac over the speed issue some, if you can pop in a card. Other than that, if you miss your snappy OS 9, or for some other reason can't let go, don't ask for someone to build you an "Expert" version of OS X to get around the quartz overhead, Be your own expert and learn how to cut off those bounces and shadows you think are
slowing down your finder experience... the tweaks are out there. And actually spend some time with OS X to the point your old muscle memory of going for the other corner of the window have dissapated... you will find it has its own ways of speeding up finder usage... not the same as the ones you are used to in OS 9, but more direct.
 
Originally posted by PeteyKohut
Could it be that I simply like the interface better. Perhaps I like running a leaner OS that doesn't suck up so much, in terms of resources. There shouldn't even be a need for something like Quartz Extreme. Why is there so much darn eye candy on the screen anyway? Who needs it?!!?!?! I would rather have the resources going to Photoshop for FCP something. The ol' OS is what attracted me to the Mac in the first place.....and take note that there are a lot of people who would rather use OS 9. It is a beautifully simple OS that is way faster than OS X. I say.....take that sleek, simple, and beautiful OS 9 interface and put it atop of that UNIX kernal, and let me have it!!!!! Of course anyone who knows anything about Macs will tell you I am describing Rhapsody, which I wish had actually hit the market, but hey, I can dream.
OS 9 RULES!!! Re-Elect G.W. BUSH 2004!


why even use a gui then? just drop down to darwin and use the command line all the time.

in other words, your argument makes little sense.
 
Generally speaking, people fear change. This is especially true when they are happy with the status quo. For people who like OS 9 so much that they can't take OS X for more than an hour or so, they don't get to experience the benefits. Sure, it's slower. For me, however, the benefits outweigh the costs. (Granted, the ftp problem isn't relevant to me.)

For anyone not sold on OS X, try it for two weeks. If you're not sold, oh well. Without having tried this, though, your opinion is not informed.

Chris

Edit: However, OS X missing critical functionality that had been in OS 9 (e.g., the ftp issue mentioned) is not acceptable. It is odd that Apple would not have corrected this by 10.2.
 
Originally posted by PeteyKohut
Perhaps I like running a leaner OS that doesn't suck up so much, in terms of resources

That is relative. I can open far more applications in OS X than in OS 9, and with the max number of apps I can open in 9, OS X behaves quite quite better.

OS 9 behaves better if you have an old computer (i.e., little HDD and little memory). Once you have a system with certain amplitude, OS 9 does not know what to do with what OS X loves to play.

But again, all is relative. OS X Finder is slower by design, which IMHO does not imply your workflow will be slower (because, Photoshop, for instance, is as fast in OSX).
 
When I ordered my new PowerMac I had the choice of an old or new version of the 1.25. I figured I could live with OS 9 within X. I regret
I did not purchase the bootable version of the
PowerMac. I use a very expensive design program
which requires a security dongle. Silly me hoping
it would launch within OS 9 in X. I would love to
take advantage of my new machine bootable
in OS 9. Would there still be an issue with the
20" Cinema Display, also X non- compliant according to initial reports by Apple but which may
also have a work around now. If there is a way,
I'd like to boot in OS9
 
Originally posted by jamilecrire
Lol, GWB has spent more than the last 12 administrations in any calendar year. He has also taken a trillion dollar surplus and turned it into a deficit of 384 billion in only 3 years (unnecessary tax cut anyone?) and he's a complete fool. This is a man that has never worked for a damn thing in his entire life and the morons of this country (actually a minority by the popular vote) wonder why things so quickly went to crap.

I hope by the time GWB is out of office he hasn't completely ruinned everything the Clinton administration did to help "everyone" instead of "the rich". Oh wait he has undone everything. Sad really. Foreign Policy == Joke, Economic Policy == Joke, Religion in Govt == Joke, Our President == Fscking Moron.

If that is what you want for a president, I'd rather have a Rhodes Scholor (on merit) who gets a BJ than some shmuck who can't even say terrorist (he says something like "tourist" or "terraist").


You know what's even more frightening? The man who controls the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, enough to kill everyone on the planet many times over, does not even know how to pronounce the word "nuclear." Like your typical 3rd grade educated country bumpkin, he says "nuke-u-lar." I agree, total fscking moron!
 
What I want X to do...

Download the pictures off of my HP 315 dig. camera without crashing the OS. The solution? Boot into OS 9, plug in the camera, and drag-n-drop the picts. And yes, it's a HARD crash, not just Quartz going belly up. Cursor freezes, cmd-alt-esc does nada, no keyboard input, gotta do a hard reboot.

Also, I do a bit o' FTPing, and OS X does not, in my exp., retain long file names. I inevitably end up adding whatever extension it was that was dropped. And on this point, lose the extensions. OS 9 knows it's an mp3 without a '.mp3', why doesn't X? And why do some of my '.app' files suddenly become documents, and refuse to launch? Most notably, REALbasic 4 does this, although it has happened to other apps.

I also like to keep an alias of the hard drive in the dock, so I can use it as a hierarchal menu ala the old Apple menu. I can guarantee that the old Apple menu was MUCH quicker. It would probably be just as fast if X loaded the menu items in when the Dock launches, but it doesn't. Instead, I gotta wait for the items to load when I use it, and it's SLOW.

Just for the record, I use an iMac DV 400 and a PB Wallstreet 300. 10.2 on the iMac, 10.1.5 on the PB (Jag refuses to install; won't even boot the install disk), and I use X almost exclusively. Love it, even the eye-candy. But the simple fact is that there are certain things that 9 does better, faster, and more intuitively. Hopefully someday X will fully replace ALL the functionality of 9, but right now this is not the case.

(tig)
 
Originally posted by zac4mac

p.s to the guy with red lines on his text - set your convergence(if you can) flat panels don't suffer this; my ACD is so clear and crisp, it makes my old Apple Multi-Sync look like it has tissue paper over the front.

Zack

There is NO CONVERGENCE. This is a PowerBook LCD. Go look at them some time. Look close.
 
Originally posted by Wry Cooter

For most of those having to boot into 9 I hope it is a case of NEED rather than want... I don't know anyone that has actually spent a month in OS X that even wants to deal with the classic layer if they do not have to.

Quartz Extreme should get your slower mac over the speed issue some, if you can pop in a card. Other than that, if you miss your snappy OS 9, or for some other reason can't let go, don't ask for someone to build you an "Expert" version of OS X to get around the quartz overhead, Be your own expert and learn how to cut off those bounces and shadows you think are
slowing down your finder experience... the tweaks are out there. And actually spend some time with OS X to the point your old muscle memory of going for the other corner of the window have dissapated... you will find it has its own ways of speeding up finder usage... not the same as the ones you are used to in OS 9, but more direct.

Okay this is nuts. It's a MACINTOSH for the love of Jobs!

I shouldn't have to turn into a programmer to get these BASIC things done. And if you'd read the rest of this thread, you'd have seen that I already DISCUSSED the third party hacks that are out there.

I've used OS X extensively. I gave it a fair shot on my TiBook 667DVI and on my 1Ghz TiBook. And I'm back in 9. X is slower at the GUI level, and anyone saying otherwise -- not to be mean here -- is either lying or deceiving themselves.

And for those making the Windows 2000/Windows 95 comparison...it's not so noticeable, just as it wasn't so noticeable from OS 7 to 8 and OS 8 to 9. Moreover, my 2.53Ghz P4 positively flies with Windows 2000, so I don't find myself longing for speed. The cursed beachball and other waiting times in OS X makes me long for speed, however.
 
Originally posted by idkew
why even use a gui then? just drop down to darwin and use the command line all the time.

in other words, your argument makes little sense.

This is bull. He and I like having a GUI. We just don't like the excessive focus on making it pretty at the cost of performance. We find the 9 GUI to be a perfect blend of form and function.
 
Originally posted by greenfruit
im not sure being able to open macdraw is so important, after all i would imagine PhotoShop can do this, and pretty much any old file can be opened by some kind of OSX app.
afterall OSX is still a relativly young OS.

Nope these are application specific files that almost NO other applications will open. So what is needed is the ability to run old apps in a compatibility window (PPC601 had a virtual 020) so if nothing else really old dead end apps can least be opened and run under OSX.

I like to use MacDraw as an example precisely because of this AND that it is an APPLE product and STILL is not forward supported.

I know of several firms with dedicated MacDraw workstations too :)

Rocketman
 
just had to chime in

I couldn't help but chime in on this whole OS 9 vs. OS X stuff.

Yes, OS X isn't perfect... but when you really think about it, for every feature missing there are like 3 new ones. Yeah, doesn't help much for somebody who needs that one missing feature but still...

Anyway, OS X will keep improving. OS 9 has plenty of problems, but none of them are slated to be solved (except by an OS X upgrade).

And for the few who are so anti-OS X that they'd actually switch to Windows, I assure you that you are in a minority. While I'm sure Apple hates to lose any customers, for every OS9=>Windows transition there are like 4 Windows=>OSX transitions.

I'm one of them. OS X is why I became a Mac user after being a PC user from 1986 to 2001. OS X is why my girlfriend did the exact same thing. OS X is why three other people I know bought their first Mac in the last year and a half. The hardware is fine too, but it's OS X that made for a lot of switchers.

I cannot believe that market share remains level, with as many Windows to Mac switchers I know and as I start to see more and more iBooks and PowerBooks around my university. OS X is what is making it happen. If you still need OS 9 and Classic mode won't do, there are plenty of older machines available and Apple even sells some lower-end new ones that will boot in OS 9.

But for me and most everybody I know with a Mac even though we still have a bootable OS 9 system folder on our hard drive we haven't booted into it in months, if ever at all.
 
Originally posted by jamilecrire
Lol, GWB has spent more than the last 12 administrations in any calendar year. He has also taken a trillion dollar surplus and turned it into a deficit of 384 billion in only 3 years (unnecessary tax cut anyone?) and he's a complete fool. This is a man that has never worked for a damn thing in his entire life and the morons of this country (actually a minority by the popular vote) wonder why things so quickly went to crap.

I hope by the time GWB is out of office he hasn't completely ruinned everything the Clinton administration did to help "everyone" instead of "the rich". Oh wait he has undone everything. Sad really. Foreign Policy == Joke, Economic Policy == Joke, Religion in Govt == Joke, Our President == Fscking Moron.

If that is what you want for a president, I'd rather have a Rhodes Scholor (on merit) who gets a BJ than some shmuck who can't even say terrorist (he says something like "tourist" or "terraist").

News flash buddy....economic policies don't go into effect overnight. Any good economist will tell you it takes several years to see the impact of an economic policy. What we are seeing now is Clinton's work.
 
Re: just had to chime in

Originally posted by achmafooma

And for the few who are so anti-OS X that they'd actually switch to Windows, I assure you that you are in a minority. While I'm sure Apple hates to lose any customers, for every OS9=>Windows transition there are like 4 Windows=>OSX transitions.

Where's your market research? Oh yeah, you have none...you just have a couple anecdotes.
 
I find it amusing that many former Mac users here, now running OS X, pretend that the performance issue with X and its questionable if attractive interface is the inevitable result of going with a stable UNIX, foundation. If this were true, one would expect that Linux systems would be slower on Macs than MacOS 9.x, but this is hardly the case. MacOS 9.x is not really a lean, mean OS---it is fairly inefficient. Many Linux installations on fairly old hardware (604-based) actually run Linux quite a bit faster than MacOS 9.x while conveying the same level of stability and multitasking as X. The fact that X is much slower than 9.x is a travesty by comparison, stemming from Apple's obstinate refusal to even consider a monolithic (non-Mach) kernel to (far more substantially) creating such a horrifically slow user interface as Aqua, on the sluggish and overengineered Quartz foundation.

Granted, while Linux shows that preemptive multitasking and stability do not come at the Great Cost to performance that Apple pretends, the usability of Linux isn't so hot. Quite true; this is why I'd pick a Mac over lean, mean and fast Linux box anyday. But by the same measure, the glitzy Aqua interface really isn't in the same league in terms of usability as the original Mac interface either, and despite self-accolades (unproven of course) that X is better for novices (for only the most rudimentary tasks of course), the original Mac interface is far more polished and consistent than Aqua, if less PrEtTy.

This doesn't stem from the much ballyhooed "fear of change" that some imagine (unproven again) but from a central change in how Apple designs its interfaces. Apple USED to employ human factors professionals to test every aspect of its interface, from abstract theory to concrete implementation. What isn't well known is that Apple fired their world famous human factors people back in the mid-90s (under Amelio). The Second Comings of Jobs brought back leading edge industrial design of the boxes and some talent marketing/graphics people, but He made no effort to restore any of the talent that was lost when Apple was going under. Frankly, the Mac interface has gone down hill since MacOS 8.6, and as attractive as the new industrial design was, it was sometimes seriously lacking in usability as well, such as the infamous hockey puck mouse. The new Apple doesn't test with users anymore, not in creating the initial constructs behind the interface (very instrumental in the first days of the Mac) nor in testing even a single idea out on real users before it ships. (It is *much* harder, sometimes impossible economically, to change something after it has shipped or even been coded). Apple does public "beta testing"; that is about it, which is virtually worthless in enhancing the usability of a system: it is too sporadic, utilizes self-selected (techie loudmouths, for example) users, and inconsistent in demonstrating the real need for a given improvement (a "feedback" form is just opinion and you can't really rank the seriousness of an issue except by frequency count; a usability test provides objective error data, but since Apple doesn't do these, they collect *nothing* objective).

Why is everyone so obsessed with booting 9? Don't they know it is unstable and ancient to the core? Yes, sadly they do; but the interface is X is a tough sell to those used to cutting edge usability, where a polished interface is more important than anything else. We have lost metadata, relative pathnames, the ability to create bootdisks through drag and drop, a simple and elegant implementation of the Desktop metaphor that actually remembered where you put your icons, etc. We got greater stability but now also have forced file extensions, a thorny command line that wants to get fsck'd way too often for my taste, a Dock with a confusing jumble of icons which doesn't even comply to Fitt's Law, destructive and constructive icon-less window widgets all mixed together, a broken Desktop where you are forced to use a bookmark/channel model because user files are so deeply buried, a UI where you can't scratch your ass without getting permission, and a countless other inconsistently implemented UI elements that JUST PLAIN WORKED on the original MacOS. What a waste; this is the cost of Apple marketing, not of increased stability, folks.

I have been waiting for a modern OS version of the MacOS for over a decade. What we GOT is NOT it. There was never any GOOD reason to go with the untested Aqua interface except marketing, pure and simple, and that is a very bad basis for building a user interface. Ironically, Apple has already spent more time working on X and its interface longer than they had in dreaming up the original Mac interface and refining it into the elegant MacOS 6.x GUI, despite having only scanty details on what a GUI should be like from the Xerox PARC work (did you know Xerox didn't even have dropdown menus? Or icons that mapped to actual files? Or could even overlap windows!? Apple created all of that for the first time in such a small amount of time. They had the right people for the job back then). Despite having had as much time to create Aqua as the entire original Mac GUI----and working from two *complete* GUIs to base it off of, the NeXT and the Mac GUIs---as well as a completely working code base for the OS that has had decades of enhancements and improvements, Apple managed to release a GUI so utterly lacking in the small details that made the original Mac interface so absolutely amazing. We could have had both top notch usability AND stability/preemptive multitasking; we got only the later. But hey, isn't it pretty?

So yes, some of us care very much about what happens to MacOS 9.x and want to keep our options open for booting it. X has promise but it is NOT the Mac. Let me boot 9.x for work and play with X as a toy until Apple figures out (again) that what made the Mac great in the first place was cutting edge science, not pretty (slow) icons and gumball graphics.
 
I take it that most of the people that post here are graphic/video people. I'm an audio person, and I can't run in os x because the applications i use and the plug-ins i need haven't even come out on os x yet. I just had to buy an "old" dual-gig (w/mirror drive doors) for $2,000, when I could have gotten a dual 1.25 gig for the same price that only booted into ten. I dig os x and use it for my video stuff, e-mail and everything else - but although much audio software has recently been announced by Native Instruments, Cycling 74 etc., it ain't shipping until at least Summer. I just wanted to put that out there because the attitude on this thread seems to be that anyone who wants the option to boot into os 9 is a blow-hard from a bygone era. And I just wanted to point out that there are people that use their macs for more than photoshop, final cut, e-mail and web browsing whose needs have not yet been met by os x. That said, I hope it's all straightened out by the end of the year, as I think os x is a step forward overall.
 
you can say that again

Originally posted by zac4mac
When is this issue gonna die?

If you've got an old Mac(like my 7500/604e233 and 8500/G3-454) or older, run 9.x, that's the best it'll do, they're primitive. If you use software that's OS 9 only, buy an old Mac. (They're cheaper than the new ones)

If you've got a newer Mac, especially a duallie, get as far away from OS 9 as you can. Any speed increase in OS 9 on a duallie is purely illusory. Very few windows in 9 are "live draw", while most in OS X are. Try iTunes. Drag a window around in 9 & X, I think you'll be surprised at how slow OS 9 really is.

If 9 works, spend your money on something besides a new Mac. I finally got a 22"Cinema Display and it's better than a new CPU, IMO.
I think my DP550/1GB/.24TB/Radeon32/Orion16/22"ACD/20"MS/10.2.4 will last a little longer, especially after adding a Sonnet Raid 133 card and an ATi 9000 Pro.

p.s to the guy with red lines on his text - set your convergence(if you can) flat panels don't suffer this; my ACD is so clear and crisp, it makes my old Apple Multi-Sync look like it has tissue paper over the front.

Zack

Just got my flat panel too -- all I can say is wow! Worth every penny. Nicest screen I have ever seen or worked on, period. Now I have to go back to my washed-out fuzzy iMac on Monday!
 
Originally posted by elmimmo
OS X Finder is slower by design, which IMHO does not imply your workflow will be slower (because, Photoshop, for instance, is as fast in OSX).

And that IS a problem..... shouldn't the OSX Finder be as snappy as the OS 9 finder? I think it should. I have a Quicksilver G4 867 with 1.12 GB or RAM and let me tell you, that OS 9 flies!!!
 
Why people want the new Powermacs to boot OS 9

Why would someone want to boot into OS-9 if they went out and bought a new computer?

I have on order a 17" PowerBook, most everything I use is OS X compatible, I use OS X about 90% of the time now.

However, I'm an Apple Tech and have customers that use 9 and 8.1 for that matter. I need to test and open files/hardware that is OS 9 only on occasion for them.

Plus, currently there is no decent Playstation emulator in X. I still use Connectix Virtual Game Station (OS 9 Only) on a regular basis.
 
It IS just a shame...

that OS X is slower than 9.

As the Techie points out, there was no real reason the new GUI should have had to be as slow as it is.

Or to overwhelm the Desktop.

Anyone using the X Windows implementation?
 
Originally posted by PeteyKohut
News flash buddy....economic policies don't go into effect overnight. Any good economist will tell you it takes several years to see the impact of an economic policy. What we are seeing now is Clinton's work.

I don't want to start a poltical arguement (well actually I do). Several years, good economic polcy can make changes overnight. Most presidential actions to combat serious economic problems do make changes overngiht simply because they increase public confidence and hopefully all the other more important factors follow. I'll agree that there is no "band-Aid" but theres no way most of our current economic troubles can be blamed on Clinton. I'm sorry if you see things like little exectuvie action and trying to balance the budget as negative effects of the Clinton Admin. Also any good economist might mention the "Business Cycle" which looks much like a sine curve. It has its peaks and troughs and it always works this way over 20 year periods typical, ever since america's foundation. We were at Peak Prosperity in the Tech Bubble and now were in a depression; its how capitalism is. One mroe point if Clintons polcies were sooooo terrible why didn't they bite him in 96 or 97, he did server 8 years and it seems like somewhere along the line before 00 we would have seen big trouble. Instead we had unmatched prosperity for most of his term. Its quite amazing how some people can alter history so radically that somehow the Republcians have done everytihng to create our economy yet the democrats took all the credit. its convoluted at best and maybe you shoudl actually talk to a economics professor(better yet; work towards a degree in Economics and eventually and MBA) than just picking out he words and phrases
 
i used OS 8 at my schools labs and HATED it. Even if it is slightly faster, os 8 and 9 just didnt "feel" right to me. I used windows 2000 on both my laptop and desktop. I got some money together, took a chance and bought a powermac, and OS X made it the smartest thing i ever did. Since then i got my girlfriend, best friend, and my mom to buy macs. I am saving up for a 12 inch powerbook, and my mom is waiting for exchange support and she will buy a powerbook too. Thats atleast 4 people, 2 of us with multiple computers that have switch to mac simpley because of OS X. I think its fine that people still use os 9, but overall apple is going to stick with os X, and will gain many more windows users than it will lose os 9 users.
 
Originally posted by andrewlandry
That said, I hope it's all straightened out by the end of the year, as I think os x is a step forward overall.

more like a leap, but oh well :D
 
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