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eric_n_dfw

macrumors 68000
Jan 2, 2002
1,517
59
DFW, TX, USA
Originally posted by Jon the Heretic
Quartz is a ridiculously overengineered graphics engine. Apple created it because it was EASY for them. NeXTStep used Display Postscript, another sluggish graphics technology if there ever was one.
Did you use OPENSTEP 4.x (or Rhapsody) on Intel? I'm serious here, don't take this as a flame - I want to know. I tried it on an AST P90 with 64MB RAM back in '95 or '96 and I did not notice any problems with the GUI's performance. I also developed a bit with OPENSTEP Enterprise for Windows (which implemented the Dispay Postscript engine on top of Win32) and it was nearly as fast as the native win32 windows sharing the same desktop. The only difference was that the DPS windows tended to look more type-set like than the win32 app windows.

However, Adobe had stopped developing Display Postscript AND charged hefty royalties for this obsolete technology. What is a company whose entire graphics technology depends on a third-party framework to do?
This I was not aware of, that Adobe wrote the Display Postscript code. I thought that Next wrote and owned the code, but had to pay royalties to use Postscript, much the same as printer manufacturers do when they provide Postscript capable printers. Lest anyone think you are wrong, since I read your post I've done a couple Google searches and, sure enough, Adobe does/did offer DPS as a product or at least an API. (I'd venture to bet that Next did write their oun DPS engine, but they probably either paid for the DPS API or helped Adobe develop the API.) (When I say developed to the API, I mean like how Sun has a J2EE specification, but BEA, IBM and JBoss actually had to write code to implement that spec.)

The PDF renderer, formerly known as the Bravo Postscript engine, was the way out. So Apple plugged into the same exact framework a technology with their own framework based on a very similar technology to Display Postscript, and being more up to date, it was more advanced, too. Apple did NOT have to rewrite the API completely for drawing windows, etc----they had a direct plug-in equivalent, with pretty much the same problems it exhibited back in the late 80's------slow as hell....
I had not heard of Bravo - interestingly, it seems that Adobe had that on the drawing board back in '96 and it is now part of inDesign (or at least was going to be). I wonder how much Adobe involvement there was in Apple's inmplementing it in Quartz or if Apple rolled-there own version of it. I still have to disagree that DPS was slow in the late 80's. Heck, the 1st NeXT Cube I played with in 1990, IMO, blew the doors off any existing Mac or PC in the GUI useability department (ducks tomatoes).

Notice how that rude little turd "Beetle666" confuses Quartz with the hardware acceleration technology moronically dubbed "Quartz Extreme". Yes, if you have to live with such an overengineered graphics engine, you have damn well better get an assist from the GPU, and this is what Quartz Extreme does. That you need such ridiculous memory bandwidth requirements, CPU computational power, AND 3D graphics acceleration technology just to render a window at the speed of an 8Mhz Mac Plus is a bit ridiculous. Quartz Extreme is an acknowledgement by Apple that every single machine they released at the X introduction is woefully underpowered. Eventually, we will get that "snap" back to X that we had in the MacOS, but not until after we have all upgraded sometimes multiple times. MacOS X is critical to Apple's planned obsolescence strategy. Steve sez: "Buy new and buy often". Some of you idiots will do just that.
Similar arguements were waged against QuickDraw, the Windows 3.0 API's and even the original Mac "ToolKit" until hardware accelleration came around for them - this arguement goes back to the DOS/Apple II vs. GUI crowd. (Heck it still exists for Unix shell lovers vs. XWindow - many of my coworkers believe a GUI's only purpose in life is to manage multiple terminal windows.) NeXT had a DSP chip or two to help speed things up, I'm wondering if Apple doesn't have a similar idea in the works - if they do, they had better release it soon!

Oddly, text is rendered very poorly in X compared to MacOS 9.x, one practical area where this was supposed to help.
I disagree. I think the fonts in OS X are much easier on the eyes and cleaner than OS 9 or Windows. I guess that's a personal preference thing though.

Quartz is not what it is cracked up to be. Quartz Extreme, on the otherhand, can only be a good thing to those who don't mind ponying up for a new Mac every year or two and who secretly desire that snap back they used to have under the MacOS, while at the same time defensively denying that they mind the dramatic slow down inherent in using X.
I don't deny that Quartz is slower than the OS 9 or win32 GUI engines - especially for us non-AGP machine owners who cannot use the OpenGL enahncements. But when I see that, computationally, the OS X app's that I use are doing near the same or better performace than their OS 9 versions, and I don't have to worry about one app taking down the whole system, (which I think there are more people in denial about here than let on) I don't care that window re-sizing is slow. (Obviously, many here do care.)

For reference, the app's I use regularly are: Final Cut Pro, iDVD, iTunes, BBEdit, Toast, Mozilla(Chimera), ProjectBuilder, Safari, and Mail. (As well as doing Java work from the command line - Java is useless on OS 9 so it's not fair to compare) With dnetc ( http://www.distributed.net ) always crunching away in the background.

It all boils down to what you are comfortable with. I'm a software developer who uses Solaris all day at work, if I'm developing C/C++/Objective C I cannot use OS 9 because one errant memory access there would crash the machine. (BTW: To us computer "gear-heads", the lack of protected memory is stone-age. Even WinBlows 95, as crusty as it was, had that for 32bit apps)

Man - that was long winded! :rolleyes: (Maybe I've bored everyone here to death and this topic will just die. ;) )
 

NicoMan

macrumors 6502a
Oct 20, 2002
712
0
Malmö, Sweden
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: just had to chime in

Originally posted by Jon the Heretic
Uh huh, ok.

Actually, I don't recall having read a post by you before. I realize you post "regularly" but you aren't that memorable, I am afraid. Get over yourself :p I had no idea you were an Xer; given how selective your pat little 'advice' was, your biases were fairly obvious. Just as you are.
Right. You got me. I just realized I am not nearly as interesting as I hoped I would be... And call me SneakoMan from now on. Yawn...
I think there is chance (small) that you will remember me from now on (even if it is for the wrong reasons). So all those efforts were not in vain... (muahahahaha)
Originally posted by Jon the Heretic
Your smarmy little 'warning' about John123 was nothing more than an attempt to discredit what John was writing. This trick --- discredit the author based on personal attributes --- is pretty sophomoric. Actually, I wasn't really warning John; rather I was calling a spade a spade, as a general 'warning' to the entire forum.
Again you are making the same mistake. I am not trying to dicredit anybody. What is wrong with you? People tend to jump up and down as soon as there is a slightly agressive post directed to them (like john123's post to the other guy). It was just an attempt to let that guy know that john123's points were more important than the tone of the post. Again I know that sounds very pedantic and I'm sorry. I'm sure you can handle it. Speaking of which, you keep on using words (after being registered for 2 days and 6 posts in these forums) like sophomore, 10-year old child, little turd, snotty, as if to assert your superiority. I would have thought that at your age you would have enough experience to do away with this sort of condescending vocabulary (my mother tongue is not english, but I don't think I misunderstood you).
As for the rest of your rhetorics, I don't have the strength to reply. Call this a cowardly exit, I do not care the least. There are battles worth fighting, this is not one of them. I will read your reply with interest (if you are not bored to death already) if you give me one, but my contribution to this little argument ends here. And lighten up a bit.

Now back to the subject...

SneakoMan
 

eric_n_dfw

macrumors 68000
Jan 2, 2002
1,517
59
DFW, TX, USA
DIE TOPIC, DIE!

For my encore I will start ranting about the virtues of Amiga Workbench 1.3 and how Commodore was taken over by evil, space aliens who now run Microsoft AND Apple!




Don't tempt me people, I'm just crazy enough to do it! (We're iced in here in DFW - just like the Shining! Well - almost!)
 

UnixMac

macrumors 6502
Oct 1, 2002
326
0
Phoenix, AZ
to be having an argument over which is better OS X or OS 9 on a forum which by it's very purpose is to attract computer geeks and tech oriented people is a bit ironic for me..

I mean, it's clear to me from the fact that I've had my OS X desktop now up and running with daily usage of varying type (FCP3, Internet, M$ Office, Photoshop, etc...) and after 179 days of up time, it still has absolutely no problems. Had this been under OS 9 (or winblows for that matter) I would have since re-booted 178 times or more!

OS X is derived from the OS that runs multi-billion dollar corporation's computers, airlines, governments, banks, all use Unix to keep their machines running, not OS 9 and not Windows..


OS 9 (RIP)
 

Inunyan

macrumors newbie
Feb 20, 2003
14
0
Tokyo, Japan
To establish haut couture business in Unix and maintain high premium for proprietary front-end environment, in other word, to become an Almani of Linux computing - that has been the official policy of Apple since the debut of OSX.

Needless to say, we have to assume that Cupertino Papacy is infalible. Can any of you think of alternative strategy for Apple's survival at this point? And they have to be quick because there would be just one or two company in that narrow nich business.

Ergo, we observe merciless maltreatment for the OS9 heretics - Amen.
 

kthomas

macrumors newbie
Feb 25, 2003
1
0
Just got a new iMac, only boots in X even though the serial number is lower than what Apple claims in the tech note.

This procedure does not work.
 

-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
Originally posted by UnixMac
to be having an argument over which is better OS X or OS 9 on a forum which by it's very purpose is to attract computer geeks and tech oriented people is a bit ironic for me..

Perhaps the irony is that you don't appear understand what "Appropriate Technologies Engineering" is.

For example, fewer lines of code in the OS means the system will run faster. Always. For example, just how many Megabytes of RAM does your current installation of OS X eat up? 50MB? 90MB? 128MB?

Whatever it is, it is a far cry from the ~3K that the old Apple DOS 3.x worked with...which perhaps was one of the reasons why that old Apple was faster for some tasks than IBM PC's running at 4.77 times higher clock rates.




I mean, it's clear to me from the fact that I've had my OS X desktop now up...and after 179 days of up time, it still has absolutely no problems. Had this been under OS 9 (or winblows for that matter) I would have since re-booted 178 times or more!

Stability is a performance feature, nothing more and nothing less.

Bottom line is that some individual users may be willing to trade-off some stability if the benefit is a meaningful increase in computational power.

And just who is the ultimate authority to say that an OS's high overhead costs trumps the performance features of higher net computational speed? Certainly not me, and certainly not you.



OS X is derived from the OS that runs multi-billion dollar corporation's computers, airlines, governments, banks, all use Unix to keep their machines running, not OS 9 and not Windows..

So what? I'm not running an airline's world bank account.

At best, I'm just typing in some non-world-ending banal response on a discussion group. Looks like you're doing the same... :D


-hh
 

eric_n_dfw

macrumors 68000
Jan 2, 2002
1,517
59
DFW, TX, USA
In my day, we didn't have these fancy com-pu-tors. We added things up by cutting notches into our flesh! After a math exam we bled like a stuck pig and we were greatfull!
 

Vankarius

macrumors newbie
Feb 6, 2003
10
0
Europe
YES!!!!!!!!!!

I really can't explain how happy I am!!!!!!!

I wanted to buy a new mac but when I found it didn't boot into OS9 I was extremely disappointed because there are no drivers on OSX for my hardware yet FORCING me to buy an 1.25DP MDD OS9 system (that apple still offers) that's even more expensive than a new 1.25DP FW800...including the noise issue...remember those whining fans?

For musicians this is fantastic and when all software is ported to OSX I'll gradly do the exchange te OSX but for now I'm just happy because I can order a new computer!!!

I'm a happy guy!! :D
 

Traceegee

macrumors newbie
Feb 23, 2003
3
0
Re: DIE TOPIC, DIE!

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
For my encore I will start ranting about the virtues of Amiga Workbench 1.3 and how Commodore was taken over by evil, space aliens who now run Microsoft AND Apple!
Don't tempt me people, I'm just crazy enough to do it! (We're iced in here in DFW - just like the Shining! Well - almost!)


Dude, go for it. I still boot workbench 1.3 and 2.0.

And whats more, an 8 MHZ 2Mb Amiga2k crashes far less often than OSX does (and thats with the optional tcp/ip stack running) ;)

I'm sort of joking here......sort of.

The world has hackers/crackers that can take out the entire internet in 12 minutes, but nobody can solve the problem of how to boot into OS( on a new 12" powerbook) :( What has become of us all? :eek:
 

trose

macrumors regular
Dec 28, 2002
198
0
OSX

I at one time not long ago was a 9 zealot and didnt want to let go. After trying X for a couple days,It was bye bye 9. I cant think any good reason to stay with 9, the speed increase is so small, I dont count that as a good reason.

#1- OSX is ROCK SOLID. 9,while it could be trimmed and taken care of, it would still crash frequently, and without protected memory doesnt matter how stable the OS is. Using OSX I can finally say my computer has more stability than any Wintel PC out there.

#2- GUI. Saying that the GUI is not important is a lame excuse. If the GUI isnt important,then use DOS. If I am going to be spending 6+ hours looking at something,I want it to be appealing. Not to mention..I havent run into any OS9 features that there is not an equivalent to in X. I use many X features that I could not do in 9.

#3- Support. Face it,OS9 is dead. It was a great OS,and I would still use it over any Windows, but OSX is leaps and bounds ahead already,and its only going to get better.
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,590
1,596
Re: OSX

Originally posted by trose
I at one time not long ago was a 9 zealot and didnt want to let go. After trying X for a couple days,It was bye bye 9. I cant think any good reason to stay with 9, the speed increase is so small, I dont count that as a good reason.

#1- OSX is ROCK SOLID. 9,while it could be trimmed and taken care of, it would still crash frequently, and without protected memory doesnt matter how stable the OS is. Using OSX I can finally say my computer has more stability than any Wintel PC out there.

#2- GUI. Saying that the GUI is not important is a lame excuse. If the GUI isnt important,then use DOS. If I am going to be spending 6+ hours looking at something,I want it to be appealing. Not to mention..I havent run into any OS9 features that there is not an equivalent to in X. I use many X features that I could not do in 9.

#3- Support. Face it,OS9 is dead. It was a great OS,and I would still use it over any Windows, but OSX is leaps and bounds ahead already,and its only going to get better.

It's not a "so small" speed increase, and the 9 GUI looks better to me and many others.
 

trose

macrumors regular
Dec 28, 2002
198
0
Ok,ill play along with your idea that OS9 is so dramaticaly faster.
You have to reboot OS9 about every 24 hours or less to maintain performance, and in a dream situation you can run it without a crash for a week. Then you gotta account for the work lost during when the crash happened before you saved.
Also,to keep that OS in tip-top performance and stability,you have to work on it once every couple weeks, make sure nothin is goin haywire.

The speed improvement is quickly lost IMHO.

I do Mac tech support as a side job,and 99% of the time, its fixing OS9. If they have a computer thats 400+ mhz I always get them a copy of X. Maybe thats bad practice,because those customers dont seem to call for support anymore :eek:
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,590
1,596
Originally posted by trose
Ok,ill play along with your idea that OS9 is so dramaticaly faster.
You have to reboot OS9 about every 24 hours or less to maintain performance, and in a dream situation you can run it without a crash for a week. Then you gotta account for the work lost during when the crash happened before you saved.
Also,to keep that OS in tip-top performance and stability,you have to work on it once every couple weeks, make sure nothin is goin haywire.

The speed improvement is quickly lost IMHO.

I do Mac tech support as a side job,and 99% of the time, its fixing OS9. If they have a computer thats 400+ mhz I always get them a copy of X. Maybe thats bad practice,because those customers dont seem to call for support anymore :eek:

I don't have to reboot every 24 hours or less. Sorry you do.

Anyway, you need to run maintenance routines in OS X. Most OS X users seem to run fsck a lot more than I do anything related to disk-checking in 9. And even Apple recommends that you run MacJanitor if you don't leave your computer on overnight (ahhh UNIX, that wonderful underpinning you all love, never really anticipated being used on a personal computer that would be shut down or put to sleep at night).

And then there are permissions to be repaired, and I definitely can still tell a performance boost from restarting in OS X. Don't know why, but I can.

I've done tech support too, and I never found a problem in 9 that I couldn't fix (well, that was fixable and not related to third party stuff, anyway).
 

NicoMan

macrumors 6502a
Oct 20, 2002
712
0
Malmö, Sweden
Re: YES!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Vankarius
I really can't explain how happy I am!!!!!!!

I wanted to buy a new mac but when I found it didn't boot into OS9 I was extremely disappointed because there are no drivers on OSX for my hardware yet FORCING me to buy an 1.25DP MDD OS9 system (that apple still offers) that's even more expensive than a new 1.25DP FW800...including the noise issue...remember those whining fans?

For musicians this is fantastic and when all software is ported to OSX I'll gradly do the exchange te OSX but for now I'm just happy because I can order a new computer!!!

I'm a happy guy!! :D
I think the OS9-enabled PMacs have 2MB L3 cache per CPU as opposed to 1MB per CPU in the new dual 1.25...
That might explain the high price. The noise might not be that bad because they improved it on the 1st generation MDDs after a few months. I think the first MDDs were the worst. So you might end up with a decent sounding machine...

Let us know.

Nicoman
 

Vankarius

macrumors newbie
Feb 6, 2003
10
0
Europe
Re: Re: YES!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by NicoMan
I think the OS9-enabled PMacs have 2MB L3 cache per CPU as opposed to 1MB per CPU in the new dual 1.25...
That might explain the high price. The noise might not be that bad because they improved it on the 1st generation MDDs after a few months. I think the first MDDs were the worst. So you might end up with a decent sounding machine...

Let us know.

Nicoman

Yes but i want a 1.42 machine so i can have the latest model and still have the option to install os9 or osx...

I actually need someone to confirm this works, someone who tried it on a 1.42 FW800

Anyone??
 

Vankarius

macrumors newbie
Feb 6, 2003
10
0
Europe
Originally posted by Orion27
No can do. Crippled ROM

:confused: You mean it doesn't work because the rom simply won't let you or are you the only one having this problem??

Can you tell me more about your attempt?
 

Wry Cooter

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2002
418
0
You aren't likely to find where and how OS X are more productive if you do not give it a chance. The GUI seems snappier in 9, but there are somethings you can actually multithread in OS X, for which you had to wait for the process to finish in 9.

It takes a couple of weeks to lose the muscle memory dedicated to the more overt differences, and it is fairly easy to set up where the differences are even fewer.

Tog, who has made a name for himself railing against New vs Old, some of his arguments simply do not stand up. He misses the functionality of the old Apple Menu. The dock parked on the side works just as well. And you really don't need aliases on the desktop anymore, plust the dock gets out of the way when you do not need to access it, unlike an alias (Although in nine, I kept aliases in a pop up folder.
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,590
1,596
Originally posted by Wry Cooter
You aren't likely to find where and how OS X are more productive if you do not give it a chance. The GUI seems snappier in 9, but there are somethings you can actually multithread in OS X, for which you had to wait for the process to finish in 9.

It takes a couple of weeks to lose the muscle memory dedicated to the more overt differences, and it is fairly easy to set up where the differences are even fewer.

Tog, who has made a name for himself railing against New vs Old, some of his arguments simply do not stand up. He misses the functionality of the old Apple Menu. The dock parked on the side works just as well. And you really don't need aliases on the desktop anymore, plust the dock gets out of the way when you do not need to access it, unlike an alias (Although in nine, I kept aliases in a pop up folder.

I gave OS X about a month of my time. With 10.2.x and my Ghz PowerBook, X was finally tolerable (I found it not to be so on my PB 550 and 667).

But tolerable is not the same as acceptable, and neither tolerable or acceptable mean exceptional.

You like the dock parked on the side? Great. Take me through hierarchical menus that way, please. Find an app that's 7 layers deep into folders -- see how many seconds it takes you to go from your cursor on the side of the screen to that app being open. Now try it in 9. Yeah...

I'm not sure what you're talking about with aliases, though.
 

mattmack

macrumors 6502a
Dec 12, 2002
563
0
San Francisco Area
Originally posted by john123

I'm not sure what you're talking about with aliases, though.
I believe he is saying that an alias stored in the dock can be hidden and in nine it is on the desktop taking space.
BTW i have a dual 450 G4 and find the gui much snappier than it ever was in nine.
Also when you can store a commonly used app or folder in the dock why would you have to go through seven folder levels?
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,590
1,596
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
I find the fact that navigating pull down menus in OS X doesn't halt the entire OS to be a lot snappier than 9.

What the hell else are you doing in those seconds that needs precious CPU cycles? And just how long does it take you to navigate through a hierarchy of menus anyway?!?
 
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