If I may ask, how did you test/check performance and the throttling behaviour? Did you perhaps run any specific benchmarks? I saw a video in another thread where a kaby lake mbp presumably showed even lower actual max clock speeds then the skylake mbp.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Bought the Kaby Lake MBP day one, returned it day 14
- Thread starter slipper
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Firestrike and geekbench for scores, used hwinfo and throttlestop to see temperatures. The sad thing is if Apple let me undervolt it then it could probably run as it should, but Apple has to be Apple and locked the voltages. Nothing to be done. I went back to my XPS 15, but this time I bought it in person from a Microsoft store so I could inspect it for defects.
My problem with the TouchBar is that you need to look at the keyboard.
Before TouchBar, you know where F1-F12 keys are and you can also tell them by feel. You didn't need to look down at your keyboard.
Now, it changes dynamically and you need to look back and forth -- creating inconvenience.
I seriously have no idea what Apple was thinking on this...
Who knows, they might make the Touchbar larger on the next gen MBP and call it a feature..
Before TouchBar, you know where F1-F12 keys are and you can also tell them by feel. You didn't need to look down at your keyboard.
Now, it changes dynamically and you need to look back and forth -- creating inconvenience.
I seriously have no idea what Apple was thinking on this...
Who knows, they might make the Touchbar larger on the next gen MBP and call it a feature..
I also hate how distracting it is to have light flashing/changing/etc out of the corner of your eye when you're just CMD-Tabbing around, etc.
It's such a half baked idea that's a solution just searching for a problem (that doesn't exist)
I think they're trying really hard not to make touchscreen computers. They'll probably phase out the mac soon enough anyway, though. They're an iOS company, it seems.
Seriously..
It's "awkward" to use a touchscreen MacBook (according to Apple), but looking down from the screen to the tiny TouchBar for interactions and switching contexts repeatedly is "great"..
...oh and if you use our iPads with our own Smart Keyboard cases, the exact same motion you could be using with a touchscreen Mac (touching an upright screen) is now "amazing" and "a revelation" and "a great way to do work on the go"..
ummm - Ok Apple, whatever..
Why not just drop the schtick and tell us "we want iOS to be the only future and the Mac is just hanging around until we fully port Xcode to iOS" - At least that'd be a bit more honest.
Makes sense. I'm not a developer so I cant remember the last time I actually pressed the ESC key. Cant you remap another physical key to ESC?
its weird because i had the same feelings as you when i first thought about upgrading to the new 2017 mbp... im coming from the mid-12 model and its still a workhorse for me but its a tad slow when im running programs since its a non-upgradeable 8GB ram...
fast forward to today, i just got in my tbMBP and its just a pain to convert all the stuff i have from standard USB to USB-C... the weight and slimmer profile is nice but i never had much problem with the heft of my old MBP...
as most have said already, the tb is a gimmick... and to make it worse, its a battery draining one... i just wish i could have a non-tb with the same specs as this MBP and i can overlook the usb-c... but couple those things together it just seems like i have to do so much to just upgrade my laptop...
fast forward to today, i just got in my tbMBP and its just a pain to convert all the stuff i have from standard USB to USB-C... the weight and slimmer profile is nice but i never had much problem with the heft of my old MBP...
as most have said already, the tb is a gimmick... and to make it worse, its a battery draining one... i just wish i could have a non-tb with the same specs as this MBP and i can overlook the usb-c... but couple those things together it just seems like i have to do so much to just upgrade my laptop...
That's the crux of it, Apple has painted itself into a corner with Pen & Touch on the Mac to preserve IOS sales. 2 in 1's are really starting to come into their own as software develops. Touch screen Mac; Apple's either incapable of producing and or remains to be overly focused on extracting every single cent from it's users, likely both these days....
Q-6
Last edited:
how doesa apple count the 14 days? doeas it include the day you bought it.
i.e. I bought mine on the 12th (monday)- does that mean I have until this Monday the 26th? or do I need to return it Sunday?
i.e. I bought mine on the 12th (monday)- does that mean I have until this Monday the 26th? or do I need to return it Sunday?
In terms of USB-C. I love being able to have everything connected to a single box, with a single cable running to my laptop. This means I can have a hub with HDMI/Ethernet/USB-A/Whatever just permanently connected. And when I want to move I just unplug the single USB-C. As opposed to having to plug each and everything into my laptop and have it like a precarious expensive octopus. That to me is a significant bonus, it makes the laptop more portable whilst more functional as a workstation. However I understand there are lot of people upset that they need a dongle to plug a single USB-A device in or something.
As to the TouchBar, it doesn't really add much to my use. But it definitely doesn't take anything away, and provides the potential of use over physical keys. Volume/brightness/scrobling etc. are much better with the sliders than a key press, and I can move stuff around or change it to what I want to use. I appreciate that much more than a mission control button that I never used on my old Mac (Because gestures...). So the only thing it removes is F keys really, which if you use them it's fine. But they've never been a particular standard and used in an increasingly niche field. So it's annoying for that 5% of users, but a bonus for the other 95%. Hopefully software developers will just adjust their programmes to make better use of it instead of stubbornly refusing to adapt.
Anyway take it or leave it. Personally I'm unwilling to stick with an old machine based purely on personal prejudice, and will make a conscious effort to adapt and move with the times. Otherwise I'd still be making little balls bounce around on my Commodore 64.
As to the TouchBar, it doesn't really add much to my use. But it definitely doesn't take anything away, and provides the potential of use over physical keys. Volume/brightness/scrobling etc. are much better with the sliders than a key press, and I can move stuff around or change it to what I want to use. I appreciate that much more than a mission control button that I never used on my old Mac (Because gestures...). So the only thing it removes is F keys really, which if you use them it's fine. But they've never been a particular standard and used in an increasingly niche field. So it's annoying for that 5% of users, but a bonus for the other 95%. Hopefully software developers will just adjust their programmes to make better use of it instead of stubbornly refusing to adapt.
Anyway take it or leave it. Personally I'm unwilling to stick with an old machine based purely on personal prejudice, and will make a conscious effort to adapt and move with the times. Otherwise I'd still be making little balls bounce around on my Commodore 64.
Battery life & Escape key it takes away, while adding distracting flashing/light changing as it constantly shifts what it's showing from app to app (unless you set it to just show F keys, at which point why have it?).
For me it makes volume and brightness changing more tedious than before.. and honestly, I think people are a bit captivated by the click and slide to change the volume/brightness. That is a wonderful tech "ohh/ahh" demo... The huge majority of volume/brightness changes are usually just up or down slightly, and for that normal F keys work superbly (and without looking to find the key if you're used to it).
The scrubbing excuse for the TouchBar I really don't get. The trackpads have always been superb at that as is.
Custom macros and actions and BTT customization - I'll give you that...but talk about niche within the niche here..
We are really reaching here to find great things about the TouchBar, which really should be a sign that, again, it's a solution looking for a problem.
I'm not reaching to find anything great with it. That's just what it is. The escape key is still in the top left and so is very each to hit, regardless of how you feel about muscle memory. Battery life isn't going to be noticeably affected by a dimming OLED screen so I don't buy that unless you can show a test of some kind. Complaining about changing light is really reaching for a problem though, I'm looking at the screen which is a lot brighter so it's not distracting anything. I just command+tabbed through everything to try create a little keyboard disco but didn't see anything because I was looking at this.
I don't think people are captivated by a volume slider. People have said it's a nice addition but not "OMG it's so revolutionary!". In reality it's the difference between having volume up/down or a knob. I quite like being able to quickly set 50% volume or something more precise, whilst that alone does not make me buy it; I didn't buy the computer for a single touchbar.
I guess - but what's the point. I switch between clamshell mode and laptop mode every day. why do i have to adapt to the new key combos just because they added a tb that i probably would never use.
remember, tb is only present on those mbps, they don't even plan on putting it on the coming imac pro. I guess one pro is less pro than the other one.
agreed. how many times do you need to change volume or brightness every day? yea, sliding sounds like a good idea, but why don't they add that feature to the touchpad? (cmd + slide to change volume, etc.) even their demo
nope - it's now slightly shifted to the right comparing to its original location. and it feels weird when you are frequently using it only finding yourself hitting nothing. (without looking) - again, physical feedback is important.
it's true that probably less than 10% of the users use F keys (or need to use esc keys a lot). unfortunately this is branded as a portable 'pro' machine. I'll be fine with the tb if it's on "MacBook NotPro"
pros use shortcuts and everyday users look down on their keyboard and try to find the icon they need to hit.
I find the Touch Bar being on the pro models to be kind of awkward because so much of what it does is so basic and visual and really seems like it would be more at home on the MacBook models to me.
I hate the Touch Bar, but my mother-in-law would love seeing some of that basic stuff on there all the time yet they put it on the pro model and not on the MacBooks so far.
I mean as just one example in safari… The new tab button?
There is simply no way looking for and hitting that touch button is faster or better than CMD+t or n if a new window is desired.
Perplexing to me.
I hate the Touch Bar, but my mother-in-law would love seeing some of that basic stuff on there all the time yet they put it on the pro model and not on the MacBooks so far.
I mean as just one example in safari… The new tab button?
There is simply no way looking for and hitting that touch button is faster or better than CMD+t or n if a new window is desired.
Perplexing to me.
Ultimately, I think Apple is just buying time with these new generations of MacBook Pro's, they will eventually replace them with iPad Pro devices that are more optimized. Think about it, the Mac is more than 30 years old, while the iPad is just 7, iOS it self is just 10 years old. macOS took 30 years of refinement to reach where its at. iOS on iPad is getting a major update this fall that many are already saying changes things. Imagine what the next 3 to 7 years does for it?
Apple's ultimate aim is, macOS really is for the older tested method of mouse and keyboard, if you truly want a forward thinking touch first platform, iOS on iPad is really what you should get. If Apple were to bring iOS to the Mac, it still would not be enough. Also, the company would rather you buy each of their devices than just have a one size fits all.
Apple's ultimate aim is, macOS really is for the older tested method of mouse and keyboard, if you truly want a forward thinking touch first platform, iOS on iPad is really what you should get. If Apple were to bring iOS to the Mac, it still would not be enough. Also, the company would rather you buy each of their devices than just have a one size fits all.
I agree with you on the magsafe. I use to not think about the positioning of my Mbp because I knew if something/someone tripped over the cord, my Mbp would be saved my magsafe.
Now I have to make sure my Mbp is in a safe place because the cable could pull it off the table.
Also I think the touch bar is a piece of decoration. I prefer having function and esc keys.
Maybe if developers integrate the touch bar in more programs, I may consider getting it on the future. But as of now its useless.
Now I have to make sure my Mbp is in a safe place because the cable could pull it off the table.
Also I think the touch bar is a piece of decoration. I prefer having function and esc keys.
Maybe if developers integrate the touch bar in more programs, I may consider getting it on the future. But as of now its useless.
I think the thermal constraints of the mbp are back to what they were before the 2016 mbp : a result of Apple's compromise between a thin design and strong, but not workstation like performance. The 2016 is a strange exception to this design choice (it doesn't throttle, even the top tier model, and it maken less ventilation noise). Maybe it wasn't really meant to exist and was only shortly introduced, because they could't afford to wait any longer for the prolonged release of kaby lake cpu's. Skylake mbp's got unfounded critique on its performance here on macrumors by people mostly misled by Geekbench scores, but it could actually be the best performer in the end, certainly within it's time lapse. Anyway, there are a lot of 'could's and 'maybe's in my explanation, a good review (eg notebookcheck) should bring some conclusions.
Last edited:
I had a nTB mac which was problematic and eventually was given a TB model. I thought the only useful think with TB was the fingerprint reader. Otherwise, like the OP, I thought it was a pain to use when adjusting screen brightness and volume. It also bothers me that the speaker openings on the top in the TB model are purely cosmetic.
I agree. Also apple builds the Axxx chips in the iPad and obviously the operating system, IOS. That gives Apple control of the major hardware components and the OS. No working around Intel's schedules, production glitches, and product direction decisions.
And this level of control is baked into Apple's DNA as defined in Steve Job's "Sand" vision. In Sand, silica sand is poured in one end of the factory, and computers come out the other end.
Apple could and should have put Touch ID on every Mac power button years ago. Why they didn't is beyond me.
Yes and thankfully in the pro software I use, all shortcuts are available from the menu, from the F keys, or from keyboard commands. Each of these can be remapped to whatever I want, and touchbar support is getting better each day whereby those F shortcuts are now customisable icons. As I said before in this or one of the other dozen threads on the subject, hopefully the software makers will adapt to either make use of the TB or allow for other options. Otherwise there's going to be an increasing number of users stuck in 2015, unable to move forward. It seems upsetting today but imagine what it'll be like in 2025!
The TB isn't anything amazing today, and I never thought it would be. It's a little touch strip on the keyboard, so I was never particularly excited by it. As I said it does offer a few nice touches now, but it does have far more potential over a physically fixed key. Maybe a lot of people were oversold and hyped or something, which is only ever going to lead to disappointment really. Otherwise the physical loss mostly appears to affect developers (From this small forum at least), so if you're a developer, how could you make it better? Most developers I speak to love stuff like that anyway.
As a developer I want changes that make my life easier. Having to look down at an auxiliary keyboard does not do that.
Key combinations or function keys that never change are the best to speed up operations. We should be able to stare at the screen and bounce a finger off a function key to step through code, define break points, step to the next breakpoints, etc. And I should be able to remove break points, go backward through the code, etc with a simple modification. For example, to add a breakpoint I should be able to press F9 and to remove a breakpoint shift-F9. Easy, no need to look down.
Also, any of these key-mappings should be adjustable to user preference. So if you are used to working on Windows in Visual Studio you do not have to learn a new set of keyboard commands to work in Xcode on a Mac, or IntelliJ on a windows or Linux system. Same muscle memory should produce the same result.
And this muscle memory is why you never f&%^ with the escape or other keys that are used to cause actions in many popular text editors. Imagine moving the return key to F12 on the TB and you get the idea.
Also, this is not just an issue for developers. Anyone that build analysis with Excel or other products hates changes the keyboard layout. A friend that is a senior quant talks about removing the mouse from the computers of new quants to force them to get used to doing everything from memory since having to look down or at menus kills productivity.
Last edited: