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California Judge Dismisses Notebook Logic Board Lawsuit Against Apple
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And again missing the point.
Judges don't judge based on logic or math. They judge based on the law. And current consumer law in the US protects against issues present at the time of purchase. If something works perfectly for 18 months and then suddenly ***** the bed, clearly it wasn't an issue present at the time of purchase, under the law. Even warranty laws with their 'reasonable period of use' cap that period at 12 months. So under the law, Apple has done nothing wrong. Or at least these folks haven't proven they did. And in the case of one party he can't claim any damages as Apple repaired the issue at no cost to him. Putting him on the same shelf as the iPod owner that bought it after the period in the case claim
The point is that if 50% of all devices failed after 18 months, there is much higher chance of one being able to prove it. And math and logic factor big when it comes to proving something.
According to your arguments it is impossible to prove that something was faulty at the time of sale because either it fails within 12 months and is thus covered by warranty and never goes to court, or it fails after 12 months and it has lasted for a 'reasonable period of use'.
And to be clear, I am not talking about the case at hand, I am talking about a hypothetical case when this faulty-at-time-of-sale actually might apply.
Not exactly, though ....
Apple hasn't really run any ads I can think of in recent years that specifically promise better quality of hardware? (I could be wrong, but just saying I really can't think of any. If you can link to a YouTube video of such an ad or what-not, please do!)
I think it's more of a *perception* that Apple's own customers and fans spread around than anything else?
In my opinion, you pay more for Apple's products because of superior design attributes. (This includes such things as the superior resolution of the retina displays vs. standard SVGA screens the competitors use, or the slim, light-weight and arguably elegant look to some of the cases. It even includes the preference for using the OS X operating system, which you can't legally use on anything that's not an Apple branded machine.)
When it comes to durability though, the entire industry is chained to certain limitations, such as the reliability of the manufacturing processes done in the Asian factories assembling all major makes and models of machines.
Many components are standard, too. (Same processors and video chipsets used in a Mac as in everyone else's Windows PC. Same hard drives or SSDs in many cases, and in others - same SSD chipsets, but simply soldered onto proprietary shaped boards.)
Bottom line, IMO? You shouldn't be paying a big premium for a Mac if your main goal is to get something that will last years longer than the competition. It may, or it may not....
Apple hasn't really run any ads I can think of in recent years that specifically promise better quality of hardware? (I could be wrong, but just saying I really can't think of any. If you can link to a YouTube video of such an ad or what-not, please do!)
I think it's more of a *perception* that Apple's own customers and fans spread around than anything else?
In my opinion, you pay more for Apple's products because of superior design attributes. (This includes such things as the superior resolution of the retina displays vs. standard SVGA screens the competitors use, or the slim, light-weight and arguably elegant look to some of the cases. It even includes the preference for using the OS X operating system, which you can't legally use on anything that's not an Apple branded machine.)
When it comes to durability though, the entire industry is chained to certain limitations, such as the reliability of the manufacturing processes done in the Asian factories assembling all major makes and models of machines.
Many components are standard, too. (Same processors and video chipsets used in a Mac as in everyone else's Windows PC. Same hard drives or SSDs in many cases, and in others - same SSD chipsets, but simply soldered onto proprietary shaped boards.)
Bottom line, IMO? You shouldn't be paying a big premium for a Mac if your main goal is to get something that will last years longer than the competition. It may, or it may not....
California judge sets precedent that $2000+ computers are only expected to last two years before failing and needing to be replaced.
Wonderful. American capitalism and the lawmakers/interpreters protecting its consumer-screwing behavior grows more rank by the day.
Wonderful. American capitalism and the lawmakers/interpreters protecting its consumer-screwing behavior grows more rank by the day.
I don't care if Apple wants to stick with their 1 year warranty forever. What I do care is that, if I'm spending $3k or more on a Mac Pro or MB Pro, I damn well better get up to a 5 year warranty from Apple. 3 years is a joke! Especially when all these components are so integrated together and expensive to replace.
Apple purposely wants you to buy a new machine every 3 years. Their quality seems to have gone down significantly since the '06 or '07 MBP with faulty graphics. I never got a recall notice nor heard about it until after it expired. Now I have my MBP sitting that can't be used. Apple won't honor the recall anymore even after explaining I was never informed. I even have proof that my MBP was taken to Apple because of screen flickering issues and never was told by the associate that there was a recall. I was told to re-install and for a while it seemed to 'work'.
Apple purposely wants you to buy a new machine every 3 years. Their quality seems to have gone down significantly since the '06 or '07 MBP with faulty graphics. I never got a recall notice nor heard about it until after it expired. Now I have my MBP sitting that can't be used. Apple won't honor the recall anymore even after explaining I was never informed. I even have proof that my MBP was taken to Apple because of screen flickering issues and never was told by the associate that there was a recall. I was told to re-install and for a while it seemed to 'work'.
I had 4 12" Powerbooks, all of them bought in different times and all of them had their logic board defective one or two months after warranty expired.
What I did was to use the same receipt to get a new logic board for each. The owner of the Mac Store was so frustrated for the fact that he cheated Apple to get new boards for free under the same warranty.
It was obvious that Apple was selling faulty Powerbooks. Today I still having one of them up and running... 10 years later.
What I did was to use the same receipt to get a new logic board for each. The owner of the Mac Store was so frustrated for the fact that he cheated Apple to get new boards for free under the same warranty.
It was obvious that Apple was selling faulty Powerbooks. Today I still having one of them up and running... 10 years later.
I have a 2011 MacBook Pro that's lasted three years with no issues what so ever. Heck, my Mom has my older White MacBook which I bought way back in 2007 and it's still running on all original parts which is pretty crazy to me. I'm hoping nothing happens with the MacBook Pro I have now as I probably wouldn't be able to replace it at the moment.
Oh the irony. Just spent ten minutes typing up a nice post, and Safari ate it.
To make a long story short, I have an Early 2011 MBP for work. Bad logic board. Horrific customer service and more wasted time trying to get it repaired than the machine was worth. Never recommending Mac again, and likely building a hackintosh next time this thing goes down.
To make a long story short, I have an Early 2011 MBP for work. Bad logic board. Horrific customer service and more wasted time trying to get it repaired than the machine was worth. Never recommending Mac again, and likely building a hackintosh next time this thing goes down.
You think that the average Mac has a life span of nearly 10 years, and you're calling *him* 'highly ignorant'?
Heck, you think the average *computer* has a life span of 5 years?
10-year-old computers that still function are statistical outliers, even for Macs. Most businesses put their computer systems on a 3-4 year replacement cycle. They wouldn't do that if the *average* life expectancy of a computer were 5 years. Pulling numbers out of your *** doesn't actually make your argument more persuasive.
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Well it's a good thing then that the court didn't imply that 2 years is "average".
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Forum reader demonstrates ability to comment on legal decisions despite apparently complete ignorance of what was actually said.
(Well, at least *my* post is accurate...)
The judge is saying that Apple had a 1 year warranty. That's all Apple is liable for in a court of law - to be sued over. If Apple had a 3 year warranty and things were breaking in 18 months or 2 years, then Apple would have to pay.
It's much like if you had a 10-year warranty on your roof. Your roof fails at 15 years and you sue, because all your neighbors' roofs are still good at 20 years. The installer guaranteed 10 years - no more. The lawsuit would make no sense.
If you could start suing manufacturers for products that failed after the warranty ended, it would cause a ridiculous situation.
Doesn't AppleCare extend your warranty? I feel like that practice itself should be sued - by paying $100 when you buy the product the product is magically guaranteed to work for 2 more years despite Apple having not touched the product.
Extended Warranties magically make the product work longer? Whaaaa??
Apple is hedging it's bets that most of their products will last 2 more years. If some fail, then they owe service to someone who bought AppleCare.
If Apple actually made junky products that all died 1 year and 1 month after purchase, then Apple Care would have to cost pretty much the same price as the device.
Suit yourself ....
But I just don't see how "never recommending Mac again" makes a bit of sense?
I mean, here you are, admitting you still like Apple's operating system, OS X, enough that you'll go to the effort of hacking another brand of PC to run it. But because you had bad luck with ONE machine, back in 2011, you want people to avoid Apple products.
The transition to Intel processors was a HUGE change of course for Apple and the early aluminum Macbook Pros using those chips had some rough spots to iron out. I pre-ordered one of the first Core 2 processor based 15" MBP's and I was shipped a unit that was completely dead on arrival. Apple made it right with a replacement that worked well and actually didn't have any of the fitment or fan noise issues others were fussing about with the same machine. It went back for service after 10 months or so because the bluetooth chip in it died and the display hinge had gotten really loose. I sold it not long after getting it back, after that. It clearly wasn't one of Apple's better computers.
Ultimately, if you're worried about having issues outside the 1 year standard warranty, just buy the AppleCare. Consider it part of the actual machine's cost, if need-be. It's not that much more money vs. what the computer costs anyway, to ensure it's covered for a few years.
But I just don't see how "never recommending Mac again" makes a bit of sense?
I mean, here you are, admitting you still like Apple's operating system, OS X, enough that you'll go to the effort of hacking another brand of PC to run it. But because you had bad luck with ONE machine, back in 2011, you want people to avoid Apple products.
The transition to Intel processors was a HUGE change of course for Apple and the early aluminum Macbook Pros using those chips had some rough spots to iron out. I pre-ordered one of the first Core 2 processor based 15" MBP's and I was shipped a unit that was completely dead on arrival. Apple made it right with a replacement that worked well and actually didn't have any of the fitment or fan noise issues others were fussing about with the same machine. It went back for service after 10 months or so because the bluetooth chip in it died and the display hinge had gotten really loose. I sold it not long after getting it back, after that. It clearly wasn't one of Apple's better computers.
Ultimately, if you're worried about having issues outside the 1 year standard warranty, just buy the AppleCare. Consider it part of the actual machine's cost, if need-be. It's not that much more money vs. what the computer costs anyway, to ensure it's covered for a few years.
I NEVER get used to people defending multi-billion dollar corporations....NEVER
Such a pity that this lawsuit was struck out.
Such a pity that this lawsuit was struck out.
I read the MacRumor article several times and went to the Reuters link. Is there a link to somewhere where the court made a "judgment of average"? I would appreciate a link to that, as I'm interested.
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You make some good points, but like most you are missing what the case is about. The plaintiffs are not suing because they only got 18 and 24 months use out of their specific laptops. They are suing because they claim Apple had systematic problems across the entire universe of this model and covered them up. The judge only cites their specific laptops as counter-evidence against there being a systematic problem.
So, it really has nothing to do with the warranty, because this is not about their specific systems. They are offering their specific systems up as "proof" of Apple's negligence. And the judge is telling them they are not offering sufficient proof; that in fact, their systems are counter-examples.
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I think he really meant "allege". As in, your laptops even fail to support your verbal claim. "Generally in a civil complaint, a plaintiff alleges facts sufficient to establish all the elements of the crime and thus create a cause of action." In other words, the fact of their laptops failure does not serve to establish a valid complaint.
You should actually read the Sale of Goods Act. The six years that you claim is the time when your contractual relationship with the seller totally ends, and you can't complain when things that should last for 100 years like a bronze statue fall apart.
Everything has to last for a "reasonable" amount of time, which is about two years for computers. And after six months it is up to you to prove that the problem you have is due to a defect that was present at the time of sale.
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It happens. You might have a server for example that does one very specific task, and it's fast enough for the task, and the software never changes, and you want to just keep it running and running. When that kind of machine breaks down companies desperately look for replacements on eBay because the software won't run on a new computer.
I wouldn't say it works like that. You buy a product, you can legally expect that the manufacturer doesn't knowingly use parts that break after a relatively short time. If Apple saved five cents by using fans that usually break after 2 years and make the computer unusable, when for five cents more they could use a fan that works for five years on average, then they could be sued successfully even when the warranty is only 12 months.
However, that's not what happened here. One computer failing after 18 months and one failing after 24 months isn't much evidence for a claim that Apple systematically and knowingly used parts that failed early.
Apple think differently. I suspect they would not provide more than they have to. They have obviously interpreted a reasonable time as the full six years. I suspect because there has been no reasonable time defined for a computer.
http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/
You are right about proving it is a manufacturers defect being the consumer's responsibility after 6 months though.
Those laptops with obnoxiously loud fans, hot to touch, no battery life, slow, etc. etc. are being used in Fortune 500 companies right now.
I left a Fortune 500 company last year, and my laptop for developing was 5 years old, and would not work more than 5 minutes on the battery. It was hot, only had 1gb memory (couldn't run much at the same time), very hot to touch. Would the company buy me a new laptop or fix it? No. That cost money. Their penny-pinchers never took into account how it affected their employees by making things harder or slower to do. It affected me - so I found another job that would care. Of course, the old company still doesn't get it. They hired a replacement a few months later, a junior developer, who is now using my same old laptop.
My anecdote is that my 6 year old laptop get's about 10 hours of battery life, runs all the new software and the fan doesn't spin up at all under normal usage. That's the inherent problem with anecdotes.
Looks like you need to read my post again. This time, try reading it without thinking about what you'll write in Apple's defense at the same time. Unlike you, I'm not loyal to the company, especially after the last few years of buggy software and questionable hardware. I only use OSX because it's the only platform that runs Xcode, and that's what I get paid the most to write for right now. I've only had one Apple laptop, and it busted just as quickly as the cheap $300 Gateway laptop I had before it. Why would I recommend the Apple laptop when it cost four times as much as and only performed about the same as a cheap PC laptop? I'm happy to pay for quality, but this product did not deliver. Furthermore, like I said in my original post, as bad as it is that the product failed, Apple's customer service was much worse.
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I wish I had done my research better before buying a 2011 Macbook Pro several years ago. See step 10:
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Unibody+Early+2011+Teardown/4990
http://www.computerworld.com/articl...-new-macbook-pros-raise-quality-concerns.html
It wouldn't be so bad if Apple corrected the issue during the refurbishing process, but they are refurbishing them to original factory spec, and thus risk the exact same kind of failure. I took mine to a local shop for a reballing instead, since I didn't trust Apple's replacement parts. The guy at the shop said he sees 2011's come in all the time with gpu failure.
Although the stories of 2011 Macbook Pro failures are anecdotal, there is certainly a wave of them. Coupled with early signs of poor manufacturing, it's beginning to look like this issue is more than just random bad luck.
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Unibody+Early+2011+Teardown/4990
http://www.computerworld.com/articl...-new-macbook-pros-raise-quality-concerns.html
It wouldn't be so bad if Apple corrected the issue during the refurbishing process, but they are refurbishing them to original factory spec, and thus risk the exact same kind of failure. I took mine to a local shop for a reballing instead, since I didn't trust Apple's replacement parts. The guy at the shop said he sees 2011's come in all the time with gpu failure.
Although the stories of 2011 Macbook Pro failures are anecdotal, there is certainly a wave of them. Coupled with early signs of poor manufacturing, it's beginning to look like this issue is more than just random bad luck.
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Count yourself lucky. I've had trouble having a 2009 MBA logic board (beeping memory error) replaced, once in 5 months after purchase, twice on AppleCare. Now, the fourth logic board actually seems to last.
RGDS,