California Judge Dismisses Notebook Logic Board Lawsuit Against Apple

[gnasher729]

Apple think differently. I suspect they would not provide more than they have to. They have obviously interpreted a reasonable time as the full six years. I suspect because there has been no reasonable time defined for a computer.

http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/

You are right about proving it is a manufacturers defect being the consumer's responsibility after 6 months though.

Please read that page again. Six years is the "claim period", not the "warranty period". Five years and 364 days after purchase: You can make a claim, but whether you get any money is highly unlikely. Six years and one day: You cannot make any claim.

 

[GoCubsGo]

It ain't over till the fat lady sings..

The lawsuit was based on false representation (false advertising) while Apple
knew of a defect. (has nothing to do with warranties) - the judgement it seems reflects the plaintiffs inadequate arguments that would warrant a lawsuit - as in *what proof do you have of a defect?* (evidence). Statistics of "how many died, and within what time period" is not substantial proof" of claimed defects and does not a case make.

The case was dismissed without prejudice, and the judge gave the plaintiffs an open door to amend and re-submitt their case within a set time period - (so that the plaintiffs/lawyers have a chance to actually do their homework) to present substantial and seemingly conclusive evidence such as, proof of the defect in the chips/motherboard etc. backed by forensic evidence and testimony.

I saw two issues with all of this. One, you have a judge who believes that a computer running for only 18-24 months is reasonable and two, an attorney who really botched the case up. Apple advertised state of the art machines but knowingly put faulty logic boards in their computers? Okay, that dude is a **** up any way you put it.

He has a better angle here and it isn't false advertising. State of the art does not mean free of any potential defects. Apple wasn't falsely advertising. Sure, they were overshooting themselves a bit because I don't know if I consider Apple "state of the art", but still. He needs to rid his case of anything pointing to advertising and redirect it in such a way that it hits towards the issue that parts are failing on multiple machines in an unreasonable amount of time. His case can be strengthened if he has a good number of plaintiffs involved as well.

 

[kingtj]

re: Apple loyalty?

I don't work for Apple or have stock in Apple. I'm just an I.T. person who has worked in the field for almost 30 years now and spent a big chunk of that supporting DOS, Windows and even Linux systems before taking a liking to Mac OS X.

Right now, in fact, I work as a support analyst for a firm that uses almost a 50/50 mix of Mac and Windows PCs (mostly HP and a few from Dell).

My point is simply that in my experience, Apple still wins overall at offering the best platform, user experience and reliability. That comes at a certain cost, but not an unreasonable one, IMO.

For example, just yesterday, I was supposed to go to a remote office and get a new Cisco router deployed but I was delayed for hours by a Windows user who managed to infect her PC with malware that was making the screen flicker and randomly closing apps she was trying to launch.

Mind you, we run a highly rated anti-virus package on all of our systems already, so this blew right past it and infected her PC anyway. That's typical though. This is probably the 10th. time in the last couple years we've had to help clean up a badly infected PC. All the user education in the world doesn't help when someone accidentally clicks onto a rogue web site that knows how to install a component via Microsoft's Active-X or what-not.

Sure, Macs *can* get viruses and malware too -- but in daily use, it's just nowhere NEAR the issue it is for a Windows PC. And despite years of predictions to the contrary, that really hasn't changed much.

And purely talking about quality of hardware? Yes, I still think Apple generally wins there too. Heck, I'm typing this message right now from a 17" Macbook Pro from mid 2010. It's used daily and never had a single issue... Still looks practically new. Battery life of the Macbook Airs and newer Pros we've deployed far exceeds what anyone was getting with comparable Windows portables, and so far, I haven't had a single problem with one of Apple's "chicklet" keyboards either. Meanwhile, several people with HP EliteBook 840G1 "Ultrabooks" already have keys falling out of theirs. The keyboards LOOK like Mac keyboards, but don't last like them!

Looks like you need to read my post again. This time, try reading it without thinking about what you'll write in Apple's defense at the same time. Unlike you, I'm not loyal to the company, especially after the last few years of buggy software and questionable hardware. I only use OSX because it's the only platform that runs Xcode, and that's what I get paid the most to write for right now. I've only had one Apple laptop, and it busted just as quickly as the cheap $300 Gateway laptop I had before it. Why would I recommend the Apple laptop when it cost four times as much as and only performed about the same as a cheap PC laptop? I'm happy to pay for quality, but this product did not deliver. Furthermore, like I said in my original post, as bad as it is that the product failed, Apple's customer service was much worse.

 

[mubeenshahid]

^I m using windows with avast Antivirus from 2 years.I download torrents visits malicious websites still didn't got a single virus

 

[lowendlinux]

^ That you know about

 

[burgman]

^ That you know about

Great post.
I wonder how old the computer the judge's legal assistant used to type his opinion?

 

[melendezest]

I did. I am just saying that I don't think you can refute or prove something like this without a large body of empirical data



This is an odd think to say. How do you know how many contemporary macs will be still in working condition after 10 years? I don't see any evidence that new Macs are of worthier build quality than older ones (quite in contrary, actually). I have taken enough of them apart to say something like this

P.S. Yes, SSDs will certainly fail after 10 years but is has nothing to do with macs per se.

I don't know they'll be around in 10 years. That's why I said it is a theory. I understand that word has lost it's meaning with the evolution debate and all, but still.

I don't see any evidence that new Macs are of worthier build quality than older ones either. I also find newer Macs to be inferior to prior models (less ports, soldered RAM, proprietary HDs, way, way uglier OS, etc), but that is somewhat an issue of personal preference.

However, the evidence does suggest that newer macs increasingly break more often. That has certainly been the case for me in my 15 years of Mac-exclusive use.

 

[leman]

However, the evidence does suggest that newer macs increasingly break more often. That has certainly been the case for me in my 15 years of Mac-exclusive use.

Could you then quote some long-term statistically sound studies that would show this? I do not think that your personal experience qualifies as evidence in this context.

 

[charlituna]

According to your arguments it is impossible to prove that something was faulty at the time of sale because either it fails within 12 months and is thus covered by warranty and never goes to court, or it fails after 12 months and it has lasted for a 'reasonable period of use'.

It's not MY argument. It's the argument of current consumer law in the US. if something goes 12+ months without an issue then, by the law, it can't have been faulty at time of sale. Doesn't really matter if it makes sense, it is the law. Heck even in the UK etc if it's past six months it's tyoically on the owner to prove the issue was present at time of purchase. And rarely can they if there was no report of an issue in that six months.

 

[maflynn]

Considering the average computer has a life span of 5 years, and the average Mac is nearly double that, the 18 month statement is highly ignorant.

I don't see Macs lasting 10 years for a lot of different reasons.

 

[Brian Y]

It's not MY argument. It's the argument of current consumer law in the US. if something goes 12+ months without an issue then, by the law, it can't have been faulty at time of sale. Doesn't really matter if it makes sense, it is the law. Heck even in the UK etc if it's past six months it's tyoically on the owner to prove the issue was present at time of purchase. And rarely can they if there was no report of an issue in that six months.

Yep here in the UK, we have good consumer protection laws, but it can be very difficult to claim (especially as most retailers claim ignorance, saying that "it's out of our 1 year warranty" or "your warranty is with the manufacturer").

Here we have a burden of proof - if an item fails within the first 6 months, it's automatically deemed to be inherently faulty, unless the retailer an prove otherwise. After 6 months, it's down to you to prove that it was inherently faulty or not of satisfactory quality.

You can *usually* use it to get companies to do what you want, but it normally involves a lot of arguing, and legal threats before they will.

The time limit here is 6 years or "what you could reasonably expect" - here, however, price *is* taken into account. You would expect a £2000 computer to last longer than a £400 one. Either way, you wouldn't "reasonably expect" a computer to last 6 years without fault.

It also depends on the fault - take a car. It's reasonable to expect that after 5 years you may have some issues - maybe a gearbox bearing, air con failure or something. You wouldn't reasonably expect, however, that the engine would completely fail.

 

[gnasher729]

The time limit here is 6 years or "what you could reasonably expect" - here, however, price *is* taken into account. You would expect a £2000 computer to last longer than a £400 one. Either way, you wouldn't "reasonably expect" a computer to last 6 years without fault.

It also depends on the fault - take a car. It's reasonable to expect that after 5 years you may have some issues - maybe a gearbox bearing, air con failure or something. You wouldn't reasonably expect, however, that the engine would completely fail.

It seems strange to relate this to age only. You expect more problems with a car doing 150,000 miles in five years than a car doing 30,000 miles. With price, a MBP with 16 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD drive isn't going to last longer than the same model with 4 GB RAM and a tiny hard drive, even though it costs more.

Two things that UK consumer law doesn't mention: What if the item you buy gets damaged _later_ say by a software update (obviously not a defect that was present when you purchased the item - the law just doesn't expect that the manufacturer could cause damage long after the item has been sold). And what rights do you have if an item can't be repaired - it's one thing to have to pay out for a repair, it's another thing not being able to get a device fixed at all.

It's not MY argument. It's the argument of current consumer law in the US. if something goes 12+ months without an issue then, by the law, it can't have been faulty at time of sale. Doesn't really matter if it makes sense, it is the law. Heck even in the UK etc if it's past six months it's tyoically on the owner to prove the issue was present at time of purchase. And rarely can they if there was no report of an issue in that six months.

I think that is wrong. "Worked for 13 months" doesn't mean there was no fault at the time of the sale; there may be a fault that took 13 months to stop the device from working - but after 13 months it doesn't matter that the fault was there earlier. Like a screw that was fixed badly and takes 13 months to come off; or a damaged bracket that has only half the strength it should have and breaks when the MBP isn't handled in a slightly rough way that it should have easily survived.

I read (but can't remember where) that in the UK the "Genius"es have guidelines to repair without charge if _they believe_ that the defect is Apple's fault (so they should give a a free repair even if they believe that you will be unable to prove that it is Apple's fault as long as they believe it is).

 

[Brian Y]

Two things that UK consumer law doesn't mention: What if the item you buy gets damaged _later_ say by a software update (obviously not a defect that was present when you purchased the item). And what rights do you have if an item can't be repaired - it's one thing to have to pay out for a repair, it's another thing not being able to get a device fixed at all.

With the software updates scenario - you're right, there's no explicit coverage/mention of that, however you could argue the satisfactory quality clause on that one.

If a repair cannot be offered (or will cause significant inconveneince), then you are entitled to a replacement or a refund, however any refund can be lowered to reflect the use you've had out of the item (e.g. if you get a refund after 2 years on an item you would reasonably expect to last 4, you would be entitled to a 50% refund).

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I read (but can't remember where) that in the UK the "Genius"es have guidelines to repair without charge if _they believe_ that the defect is Apple's fault (so they should give a a free repair even if they believe that you will be unable to prove that it is Apple's fault as long as they believe it is).

The biggest point of this is with batteries that expand. Any damage caused by a swelling battery on machines which have non-removable batteries will be covered out of warranty (e.g. if your battery swells and causes the top case, bottom case and hard drive to break, these items would be repaired free of charge, but you may have to pay for the faulty battery).

 

[melendezest]

Could you then quote some long-term statistically sound studies that would show this? I do not think that your personal experience qualifies as evidence in this context.

*Sigh*

I've already seen enough posts in this thread alone to show that there may indeed be a problem. The fact that someone took it to class action lawsuit means there were enough incidents to perhaps support the claim.

But you can completely dismiss other people's personal experience as you see fit. That is your prerogative. You are free to keep driving when people around you say "the bridge is out ahead".

 

[charlituna]

You can *usually* use it to get companies to do what you want, but it normally involves a lot of arguing, and legal threats before they will.

And when they do bend it's not because you are in the right. It's because the legal costs to get a court to shut you down are more than the cost of doing it and getting rid of you

----------

The biggest point of this is with batteries that expand. Any damage caused by a swelling battery on machines which have non-removable batteries will be covered out of warranty (e.g. if your battery swells and causes the top case, bottom case and hard drive to break, these items would be repaired free of charge, but you may have to pay for the faulty battery).

Actually that can depend on the age of the machine. My BF had someone recently bring in a PowerBook g4 with damage from a swollen battery. Aside from the issue of parts no longer being made, they wouldn't cover Jack on it. Especially after the customer admitted that the battery had been dead for a while (so his continuing to attempt to charge it is likely the root of the issue)

Now if it was a 2-3 year old MBP they would likely cover everything. One because of the safety risk and lawsuit if they didn't, customer declined and the dang thing lit up. Just not worth it. Same logic behind them covering swollen batteries on phones and iPads when there are no signs of tampering

 

[thekev]

Now if it was a 2-3 year old MBP they would likely cover everything. One because of the safety risk and lawsuit if they didn't, customer declined and the dang thing lit up. Just not worth it. Same logic behind them covering swollen batteries on phones and iPads when there are no signs of tampering

That wasn't my experience a couple years ago. They just said to buy a new battery. I had the same experience more recently with a 2011 model. It experienced gpu failure a month later with no warning, but they credited the cost of battery service toward depot repair. Others on here have stated that Apple covered swollen batteries, which suggests that there isn't a set policy on this. I actually had Applecare on the 2011 at one point, but it had expired by a few months.

 

[leman]

But you can completely dismiss other people's personal experience as you see fit. That is your prerogative. You are free to keep driving when people around you say "the bridge is out ahead".

Now there is some confusion here. There is no doubt that many 2011 MBP failures are due to dGPU issues (that is, the GPU is likely to go first). Whether it is a known manufacturing flaw (with the attached conspiracy as claimed by the plaintiffs) and whether it makes the laptop less reliable than anything else Apple has ever produced — that is a different question that is surely worth pursuing.

However, this has nothing to do with my quote to which you were responding. It was about your (in my opinion, completely baseless and wishful) conjecture that current Apple computers are of less manufacturing quality then older models.

 

[Brian Y]

And when they do bend it's not because you are in the right. It's because the legal costs to get a court to shut you down are more than the cost of doing it and getting rid of you

Not necessarily. In my experience, once a company realises that you are actually aware that you understand your rights, they will normally back down. If I'm not in the right, I don't chase companies. I do, however, chase them when I know they have a legal responsibility to do something.

An example of this recently was that we had a hairdryer (quite an expensive model I might add) break after 13 months - purchased from Argos. When taking it back, they said "nothing we can do, it's over 12 months old". When I said I wasn't claiming under their warranty, I was asking them for a repair under the SOGA, they again repeated "our warranty is 12 months" adding that I needed to "speak to the manufacturer". I called their head office, from the store, explained what happened, told them that, if required, I will be more than happy to take it to an electrician if they required proof of burden but reminded them that they'd have to foot the bill for this if it was found to be in my favour. He asked me to pass the phone to the sales rep, who promptly replaced the hairdryer.

I think a lot of it is down to training of front-line staff. 99.9% of the time, the "it's out of warranty line" will work, so I imagine they're trained to say that. My point is, we shouldn't let companies get away with it. I would absolutely love for trading standards to go around the big chains, asking them what their options are for a 13 month old faulty product, and then slapping them with a £10,000 fine for unfair trading every time they were told that it's out of warranty or to call the manufacturer, instead of correctly relaying the rights that the customer has.

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Actually that can depend on the age of the machine. My BF had someone recently bring in a PowerBook g4 with damage from a swollen battery. Aside from the issue of parts no longer being made, they wouldn't cover Jack on it. Especially after the customer admitted that the battery had been dead for a while (so his continuing to attempt to charge it is likely the root of the issue)

The powerbook g4 doesn't have a non-removable battery. The additional coverage is for swollen batteries which aren't removable (e.g. All MacBook Airs, >= 2009 MacBook Pros, etc). The coverage isn't for the battery, just for damage that the battery causes.

Also, there was (years ago) a safety recall on those batteries, so your bf should at least have checked the model against the recall list. https://www.apple.com/uk/pr/library...f-iBook-and-PowerBook-Computer-Batteries.html. As far as I know, spare parts for these are technically available in Cali still.

 

[charlituna]

Also, there was (years ago) a safety recall on those batteries, so your bf should at least have checked the model against the recall list. https://www.apple.com/uk/pr/library...f-iBook-and-PowerBook-Computer-Batteries.html. As far as I know, spare parts for these are technically available in Cali still.

He didn't have to check the list as it is moot. Cali law requires 7 years from last sales date. The PowerBook G4 was discontinued Jan 2006 so as of January 2013 no more parts were being made. Dude brought his end after that date. Could get a new battery period

 

[gnasher729]

If a repair cannot be offered (or will cause significant inconveneince), then you are entitled to a replacement or a refund, however any refund can be lowered to reflect the use you've had out of the item (e.g. if you get a refund after 2 years on an item you would reasonably expect to last 4, you would be entitled to a 50% refund).

What I really meant was a situation where you are not entitled to a _free_ repair anymore, but the device cannot be repaired at all. Someone mentioned that in California apparently Apple has to be able to repair Macs for seven years. So if you went to the store after three years with a non-working battery and they say "sorry, you have to pay for the battery" that's one thing, but if they say "sorry, we don't make these batteries anymore, so your device cannot be fixed and cannot be used", that's another fault.

In UK consumer law, I would expect that not being able to get paid repairs would be a separate fault. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to say that in the law. (I think Australia requires the manufacturer, not the seller, to be able to make repairs for a longish time, and the manufacturer would be liable if they can't repair the product).

 

[melendezest]

Now there is some confusion here. There is no doubt that many 2011 MBP failures are due to dGPU issues (that is, the GPU is likely to go first). Whether it is a known manufacturing flaw (with the attached conspiracy as claimed by the plaintiffs) and whether it makes the laptop less reliable than anything else Apple has ever produced — that is a different question that is surely worth pursuing.

However, this has nothing to do with my quote to which you were responding. It was about your (in my opinion, completely baseless and wishful) conjecture that current Apple computers are of less manufacturing quality then older models.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion.

However, I'm basing my "conjecture" on personal experience, not wishful thinking. I have no real evidence to suggest that current Macs last the same or longer than older models. I do have evidence to the contrary.

And by comparing it to similar experiences from other folks here and in the lawsuit, well...

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck.

Add to that proprietary hardware (SSDs), soldered RAM, and lack of still-in-use ports, and you end up with not only what I consider an inferior machine than its predecessors, but a disposable item you keep until AppleCare runs out and that's it.

So yes, less quality it is. Better than anything out there other than Apple, but even they don't build them like they used to.

 

[leman]

However, I'm basing my "conjecture" on personal experience, not wishful thinking. I have no real evidence to suggest that current Macs last the same or longer than older models. I do have evidence to the contrary.

And I am saying that anecdotal evidence is not a valid basis for a solid opinion.

And by comparing it to similar experiences from other folks here and in the lawsuit, well...

This is not the first class action lawsuit filed agains apple laptops and surely not the last one. There were a number of lawsuits agains PowerBook G4, plastic MacBook screens, and even this funny little thing.

 

[melendezest]

And I am saying that anecdotal evidence is not a valid basis for a solid opinion.

Yes, yes it is. If I experience something first-hand, then that is the single most valid basis for an opinion. You can dismiss third-party anecdotal evidence all day, but when it's you it happens to (especially more than once), you have the only solid opinion.

This is not the first class action lawsuit filed agains apple laptops and surely not the last one. There were a number of lawsuits agains PowerBook G4, plastic MacBook screens, and even this funny little thing.

Not relevant. Were talking about a particular issue, and on that particular one the lawsuit confirms my first-hand experience.

Now, you are free to dismiss it, as you have been, given that for you this is "merely anecdotal". But that is the thing about advice and/or a cautionary tale, you either choose accept or dismiss it at your own risk.

No harm, no foul for the one providing the advice. Choose wisely.

 

[ayieuyit88]

My MBP 2010 CRASH most of the time now...

Hi,

Seeing this topic I want to ask what should I do with my MBP 2010. It crashed A LOT now... And my Apple Care expired in 2013 (bought the 3 years, but never use it)

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[Fox Fisher]

I don't know the deal with 1 year US warranty but Apple products have 2 years of warranty in my country.