Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
California to Introduce 'Right to Repair' Bill Requiring Smartphone Manufacturers to Offer Repair Info and Parts
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I agree, but this bill goes potentially much further. I just want a law on batteries and disks because both are already replaceable, just more expensive than they should be to replace.
Um personal responsibility? With freedom of choice comes accepting the outcomes..
The repair shop or the consumer. if someone brings in a device and we accidentally stab the board, we replace it. If someone brings in a device leaking with cat urine, "still turns on but sometimes turns off" and we're unable to fix it and it dies entirely - that's not on us, it's on the fact that someone let a cat pee on it. Sites like Facebook, Yelp, Google Business, etc. will hold shops accountable that do poor work. No one will go to them.
Shoddy repair shops already exist. the reason is because sane people typically do not enter an industry servicing devices with no support.
I have two choices.
1) I can go into an industry where I work on devices with support of the manufacturer, documentation, and a reasonable supply chain.
2) I can work on devices where I have to pray someone in China will leak schematics illegally. My supply chain consists of vendors who only accept wire transfer, who send parts that may or may not work: that may or may not be confiscated by customs.
Only the loons are in this business. As it stands, you have to be a loon to be involved in this business. I would love to see more high quality repair shops open up. As a business with everything going against it, we have quite a few quality companies. I can only imagine there being more with time.
Bad repair shops get owned by the public thanks to modern social media platforms every time.
Examples:
https://www.yelp.com/biz/portatronics-new-york
https://www.yelp.com/biz/portatronics-new-york-4
You can't break people's stuff for a living and stay in business anymore just because you have a billboard or fancy advertising.
They are constantly leaked anyway. A 10 year old with google and $5 in his paypal account can get schematics, yet no one has reproduced the Macbook Pro. Why? There's more to a Macbook Pro than what buck controller IC they used to power the CPU.
All a schematic gives are component values that could be ascertained by any large company that had the time to measure every single component on the board. This is doable. Toshiba or Lenovo could do this in a day or less with their resources. It would take independent repair shop owners years, so obviously not practical. If this is the case, why is it that so many companies are still years behind Apple when it comes to battery life, why have they not recreated the Macbook? There's more to it than that.
Here I genuinely agree with you. In the interest of small government and free markets, I would ask two things.
1) Stop allowing customs agents to confiscate parts I purchase from Chinese vendors. This is a waste of taxpayer money. It also is not a free market if a factory producing screens or keyboards can't sell to me because a government agent with a gun confiscates what I have purchased in that voluntary, free market transaction.
2) Stop abusing copyright law to sue/jail/shut down people sharing documents that show how components they own are interconnected. Good reading is Mackie vs. Behringer in the late 90s on schematics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behringer#Legal_cases
As I age and look to intertwine my more conservative/libertarian leanings with my job, I realize it is silly to expect a company to supply something at a "reasonable" price when a subjective term like "reasonable" is written into the law. I am beyond that. I have more reasonable requests. Just stop stealing what people import. Customs should be searching for bombs and anthrax, not ISL6259
Obamacare is a mandate that requires I pay a penalty if I do not wish to purchase poor healthcare. I in no way would request that
1) My business be subsidized by someone else's tax dollars against their will.
2) People be punished if they choose to not use my business' services.
The market does not decide when private companies use government agencies like ICE to confiscate parts at the border. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...nd-security-participates-trademark-raid.shtml
If I make a purchase from a factory, of parts to a five year old device - that is a free market transaction. The government should stay out of that transaction unless I am harming someone.
This happens even without laws. We have people who come in five months after a board repair saying that their word doesn't load anymore "since we fixed it." This is not something that will change regardless of whether this legislation goes into effect.
Besides the fact that ths method of reyccling can at best get you back maybe 25% of the raw materials, they push for shredding of devices rather than repairing for re-use.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphones-macbooks
A good amount of the "commodity" parts on Amazon and ebay are garbage and it is because it is difficult to find a consistent supply of anything good.
I agree with you here. I think it would be great if when I went to purchase products from China, the government only stepped into confiscate my purchases when I imported a bomb or anthrax. Let's get the government out of the business of confiscating spare parts purchases for 5 year old phones and laptops so we can have a free market.
I also think it would be nice if government agencies weren't involved in punishing individuals who shared documents on how components in a device they own were interconnected.
SIM trays don't exactly amount to repair parts...
Ultimately, I understand what consumers who do not own stock in Apple have against this type of legislation. They are tired of people using the power of the government to dictate what other people do, and fair enough. People who are against this legislation tend to be tired of the constant demand for rights, while not taking on any of the associated responsibility.
The reality is that the power of the government is already being used to dictate what people do within this business. I would much prefer a changing of the structures in copyright law and import so that the state would be one step further removed from this process - so that repair could actually be a free market. I don't think this is 100% the right way to go about it. That being said, i can appreciate that it at least creates a discussion about the right way to go about it. This definitely starts with getting guns & the legal system out of the process of me providing a battery to my customer or replacing their fuse within the confines of our voluntary, free market transaction.
Last edited:
[doublepost=1520544258][/doublepost]I've been needing a new Windows laptop and I bought a Lenovo T-series ThinkPad over the Surface Laptop for this very reason. Once the Surface's battery stops holding a charge, I can't replace the battery (or any of its other parts for that matter). But with the ThinkPad, I'll be able to buy a new battery or upgrade the RAM or HD for years to come. And with a ThinkPad in particular, I'll be able to make those changes myself rather than pay a dealer to repair it for me.
California is preparing to join several other states with a new Right to Repair bill, which will require smartphone manufacturers to provide repair information, replacement parts, and diagnostic tools to product owners and independent repair shops.
California Assemblymember Susan Talamantes Eggman this afternoon announced plans to introduce the new California Right to Repair Act. Eggman says the bill will provide consumers with the freedom to choose a repair shop of their choice.
Mark Murray, Executive Director of Californians Against Waste said smartphone manufacturers and home appliance makers are "profiting at the expense of our environment and our pocketbooks" while Kit Walsh, Senior Staff Attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, said the new bill is "critical to protect independent repair shops and a competitive market for repair," which will lead to "better service and lower prices."
In addition to California, 17 other states have already introduced similar Right to Repair legislation, including Washington, Massachusetts, Vermont, New York, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, North Carolina, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Virginia.
Several states began introducing Right to Repair legislation early last year, and the Right to Repair movement has continued on since then, spurred by Apple's iPhone throttling controversy.
Since last year, Apple has been lobbying against Right to Repair bills in various states, as have several other technology companies. In Nebraska, for example, Apple said approving Right to Repair would turn the state into a "mecca for bad actors" making it "easy for hackers to relocate to Nebraska." Other arguments from tech companies and appliance manufacturers have suggested Right to Repair bills would compromise device security and safety.
Right to Repair bills are heavily endorsed by repair outlets like iFixit, independent repair shops, and consumer advocacy groups like the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
In California specifically, the Right to Repair bill is particularly interesting because as Motherboard points out, there are strong repairability laws already in place. California Civil Code Section 1793.03 states that companies must offer parts for repair for at least seven years after a product is released, which is why on Apple's vintage and obsolete products list, it lists California as the sole state where consumers can continue to get repairs on vintage products.
Apple currently requires customers who have Apple products in need of repair to visit an Apple retail store, mail a product to an Apple repair facility, or visit an Apple Authorized Service Provider to receive support for their devices. Repairs from third-party repair shops that are not Apple Authorized Service Providers can void a device's warranty.
Apple's current flagship iPhone, the iPhone X, earned a repairability score of 6 from repair site iFixit. Repairs on the device require a special Apple-specific screw driver, delicate cables are often in the way and are difficult to replace, and Apple's waterproofing makes repairs complicated. Other Apple products, like MacBooks, have much lower repairability scores.
Article Link: California to Introduce 'Right to Repair' Bill Requiring Smartphone Manufacturers to Offer Repair Info and Parts
Oh please. Nice throwing in a slice of bread into my fruit salad. So upgradable PCs don’t exist? Upgradable MacBooks from just five years ago don’t exist? Modular google phones aren’t in development or even in the market place yet? For that last one, I honestly don’t know, because I would never consider an android phone and don’t keep up with options available. Funny how the flip phone I upgraded from to an iPhone 4 in 2010 had a detachable battery, so I could have an extra one on hand at times. Is my phone enjoyment that much better just because my 5S is thinner compared to the flip phone? Not really.
Instead of shaking my head at an Apple apologist like yourself, I’m jealous of your ease to accept whatever Apple throws your way without grumbling about whether it fits your usage style or not.
You can have all the Animoji improvements, bezelless phones, and quarter millimeters shaved off last year‘s models. I’ll take headphone jacks, MagSafe ports, and upgradable processors/RAM/SSDs to keep my computer useful longer and out of a landfill eight days of the week.
[doublepost=1520544401][/doublepost]
Calling @I7guy.
Last edited:
Seen it 100 times. Go into the store. Store says “there is water damage.” User gets mad, yells, “I never put water on it.” Store knows something happened. Now imagine that but after they open ththe device. How much time all this could take. Moments like these are slippery slopes.
You can't treat them separately this way. Without software, you just have a brick. Mobile manufacturers are licensing hardware in truth, since you can't unlock the boot loader to install anything you want.
I’m not sure how it works in the US but in Australia it’s sort of already like that. There’s heaps of little phone and computer repair places. Personally I’d never use one after seeing some of the work they do, I’d rather jump on ifixit and do it myself or pay Apple.
Apple going away from upgradable laptops and desktops is very reminiscent of early Apple. I dunno if you’ve read Steve’s biography but he really liked locking things down (the first mac you couldn’t open). I think he saw his computers as perfect and didn’t want anyone ruining them which then made the him look bad.
Really, I think many people are confused, this isn't saying that if you repair the device yourself and mess it up that Apple has to honor the warranty. All that this is saying is that manufacturers MUST sell replacement parts to consumers and third party repair shops, even if they aren't authorized by Apple.
Basically all this law is doing is insisting that consumers and third party shops be sold the parts and tools to repair smart phones. In doing this, it will mean that third party shops will be able to perform quality repairs instead of using substandard parts. It also will mean that manufacturers will have to finally start admitting what their real costs are for these devices, which may mean that we will see a reduction in the cost of phones as well, as I don't think many people will stomach the fact that Apple and others are making $400-$500 in profit on each and every phone sold.
Now, the question I have is does this law only apply to smartphones or other items as well? For example, Tesla won't sell parts to anyone, perhaps this would force them to change that stance as well.
Basically all this law is doing is insisting that consumers and third party shops be sold the parts and tools to repair smart phones. In doing this, it will mean that third party shops will be able to perform quality repairs instead of using substandard parts. It also will mean that manufacturers will have to finally start admitting what their real costs are for these devices, which may mean that we will see a reduction in the cost of phones as well, as I don't think many people will stomach the fact that Apple and others are making $400-$500 in profit on each and every phone sold.
Now, the question I have is does this law only apply to smartphones or other items as well? For example, Tesla won't sell parts to anyone, perhaps this would force them to change that stance as well.
Sounds like you have a lot of personal experience and stake in this area. I’m not sure I read you right though. The complaint is about government overreach, but the answer is more government and legislation?
I hear it waaay to much today. The government or its agents screw up and everyone calls on the government to save the day. Usually it’s not by punishing or holding accountable those at fault, but instead burdening citizens and taxpayers.
[doublepost=1520554155][/doublepost]
Thank goodness we have you to come to the rescue and tell companies what their profits should be.
I think you make too much money. I’m going to call my congressman and demand a reduction. Oh wait, people do that all the time when they support and vote for countless taxes and redistribution.
[doublepost=1520554395][/doublepost]
Yes YES, a law on batteries! How much should they be? Just so glad we have experts here to set the market for goods and services.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Yes, the U.S. can have shady, scary, seemingly-incompetent repair shops (too). But then there's also plenty that don't look so (repair) dangerous. Some can look as pristine & polished as an Apple store and have very, VERY competent people working in them that can seem to work magic. Where even Apple may say "No we can't" some of these shops will be able to "Yes we can" squeezing more life out of existing owned tech rather than spurring on throwing good tech away to push another sale.
Obviously, if this plays out, while the choice to use Apple for repairs would still remain "as is", choices for consumers would significantly expand. Yes, a consumer could gamble on the scariest, shadiest-type place if they want or they could flex their ability to choose a place that is not "cheapest" (probably because of) near incompetency nor most expensive (Apple) too. There's plenty of quality shops that would fall in the middle somewhere.
As to Jobs hating people being able to make repairs & upgrades, Apple products released during his (second) rule were far more accessible, upgradable, etc than their decendents since he passed. Hard drive replacements, battery replacements, SSD replacements, memory upgrades, etc all tended to be much easier when he ran this particular show than how it's become since he was (not quite) replaced. Now it's near Rubik's cube-challenging to do relatively simple things. When Jobs was in charge, stuff that generally needed to be replaced tended to be relatively easily accessible for replacement. Look up a hard drive replacement procedure for an iMac in about 2005 vs. an iMac in 2018. In the mid-2000's iMac hard drives were OUTSIDE of any layers of a circuit board- turn a few screws to expose the "guts" and the hard drive was typically easily accessible right there. 2018: it's almost a "where's Waldo" challenge to even find the location of the hard drive.
My first Mac (that I owned) was a Job's Mac- the PowerMac G4 circa 2001 or so. It had a simple latch on the side that one could pull and drop down a whole side on which the circuit board was attached (didn't even have to turn one regular or proprietary
screw, no suction cups, no glue guns, etc).
This made it about as easy as possible to do all kinds of repairs/replacements/upgrades... easier than I'd ever seen in any kind of computer before. Even great-old Amiga 2000's required turning screws and sliding panels.
So I'll buy that Jobs had such a philosophy at some point but not seemingly the Jobs that ruled this roost when I first plugged in. Generally and IMO, that period seemed to be about delivering consumer value much more so than squeezing ever nickel out of us in every possible way... including post-warranty repair work.
Last edited:
I'm all for the free market, but there have to be protections against scams, and this is one: Selling something that people expect will work much longer than it actually does. And no, putting a little warning in the EULA isn't going to fix that.
I don’t mind regulation if it’s justified... history has shown that greed run amok can be disastrous for society so it’s all about balance... but this is definitely an instance that does not warrant regulation IMO.
The government shouldn't be saying precisely what something costs: fair enough. No central planning!
Here is my question to you. What power/right should ICE have to confiscate batteries if customs duties are paid on them in a free market voluntary transaction with a vendor overseas? Under what circumstances?
Regulations, once enacted, tend to be very difficult to remove. Most are well intentioned but many are knee jerk with little thought to ramnifications.
Yeah. You have the right to repair. You also have the right to damage. Choose a good repair shop
Hihihi.. for sure Rossmann got triggered like an old relay... *dzzing* MR is like a low reluctance path for his mental flux... ^^
But well, Apple will win. Just put in more A11's and several unknown security chips, make the chips smaller and smaller and glue everything together. In near future an Apple motherboard will be just one big single chip.
But well, Apple will win. Just put in more A11's and several unknown security chips, make the chips smaller and smaller and glue everything together. In near future an Apple motherboard will be just one big single chip.
Great job with the labels.
Sounds like the point was made. The trend is slim and not user replaceable. Sure you can buy/build your own computer or whatever where you can fix and replace the parts. It's not going to have a great form factor. Thinkpads are not slim and sexy. You can buy either a thinkpad or an sp4. The sp4 has the best compact form factor.
And sure along the Animoji improvements, bezelless phones and quarter millimeters shaved off of last years model, is a phone that is great to hold, fast, comes with awesome face id and a great oled screen.
PS You think apple sends the laptops to the landfill. Probably not.
Just for clarification: It would make more sense to you if you read the actual reply of the poster that I replied to Previously. Which was another forum member stating that Apple does not sell OEM iPhone parts, when in fact, the Sim tray is indeed a part they sell. Also, I never interjected “repair”, you did. I was specifically referring to the Sim tray being a “Part”, Which in fact it is.