Can we crowd source a UGA graphics card?

nbritton

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 22, 2008
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Do we have enough people to crowd source a custom built Mojave supported graphics card for the Mac Pro 5,1?
 

startergo

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I don't think we can request something for a soon to be declared vintage mac :).
Our best bet would be asking politely the OEM's (for the AMD cards) or asking Apple to remove the restriction for the UGA video ROM so we can find a solution for a GOP driver.
 

orph

macrumors 68000
Dec 12, 2005
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no, looks like most AMD cards will work RX 4XX/5XX vega etc up to a point,

and simply you dont have to use 10.14
 

ActionableMango

macrumors G3
Sep 21, 2010
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Do we have enough people to crowd source a custom built Mojave supported graphics card for the Mac Pro 5,1?
The only way to know is to try.

Basically you contact business salesperson at a smaller GPU company and get a quote for a UGA graphics card. They come back with some costs laid out, let's say $40,000 for a few hours of engineering and test time, and on top of that a minimum order of 300 cards @ $200 each ($60,000) to make it worth their time to have a separate SKU on the production line. Finding a company small enough to be willing to do a small $100,000 job like this is probably the most difficult step.

After that, it is quite easy--I know people that have successful Kickstarter campaigns. Basically you open a Kickstarter campaign or Indigogo or whatever with a funding goal to cover the cost of the quote, Kickstarter fees, and some wiggle room on top (using the above example, let's say $120,000 or more).

Then you need to get the word out. Send links to the campaign to the typical Mac bloggers (Marco Arment, John Gruber, etc.), post in Mac forums everywhere you can, graphics/video/photography forums--anywhere where there are cMP users.

If the crowdsourcing campaign reaches it's funding goal, you collect the money and have the GPU company execute the quote to make the cards.

Or let's say not enough people care about boot screens and so the campaign doesn't get enough backers. Not a problem...the project fails but Kickstarter doesn't charge a fee for failed campaigns. So you are out the time you put into it.

You do need to avoid some noob Kickstarter mistakes, like making the campaign open to all countries and offering free shipping, then later finding out shipping to Brazil, India, China, Europe, or whatever is horrendous. This absolutely killed my friends' first Kickstarter and they took a loss on every single non-US sale. They didn't make that mistake twice.

If you are up for doing all of that, good luck! If not, I completely understand--I wouldn't want to do it.
 

startergo

macrumors 65816
Sep 20, 2018
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The only way to know is to try.

Basically you contact business salesperson at a smaller GPU company and get a quote for a UGA graphics card. They come back with some costs laid out, let's say $40,000 for a few hours of engineering and test time, and on top of that a minimum order of 300 cards @ $200 each ($60,000) to make it worth their time to have a separate SKU on the production line. Finding a company small enough to be willing to do a small $100,000 job like this is probably the most difficult step.

After that, it is quite easy--I know people that have successful Kickstarter campaigns. Basically you open a Kickstarter campaign or Indigogo or whatever with a funding goal to cover the cost of the quote, Kickstarter fees, and some wiggle room on top (using the above example, let's say $120,000 or more).

Then you need to get the word out. Send links to the campaign to the typical Mac bloggers (Marco Arment, John Gruber, etc.), post in Mac forums everywhere you can, graphics/video/photography forums--anywhere where there are cMP users.

If the crowdsourcing campaign reaches it's funding goal, you collect the money and have the GPU company execute the quote to make the cards.

Or let's say not enough people care about boot screens and so the campaign doesn't get enough backers. Not a problem...the project fails but Kickstarter doesn't charge a fee for failed campaigns. So you are out the time you put into it.

You do need to avoid some noob Kickstarter mistakes, like making the campaign open to all countries and offering free shipping, then later finding out shipping to Brazil, India, China, Europe, or whatever is horrendous. This absolutely killed my friends' first Kickstarter and they took a loss on every single non-US sale. They didn't make that mistake twice.

If you are up for doing all of that, good luck! If not, I completely understand--I wouldn't want to do it.
How about we collect money to a willing software developer to create GOP or EFI rom's for the supported by Apple AMD cards? I am sure there are willing Apple developers former or current Apple engineers :)
 

orph

macrumors 68000
Dec 12, 2005
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that is already going on, look at the forums.
audio over hdmi
power tables for vega
iv got SMC kets replaced on my 3.1 for hwmonitor
there's more too

you can always ask Intel to support osx on there GPU's may have to wait untill 2022 tho :D

relay we are hitting the point where for 99% of people it's not worth having a high end GPU in a macpro with a first gen i7 cpu

real power users are mostly gone to much newer systems

and we have the option of lots of nvidia cards and AMD cards, it's the best time in cmp for GPU options ;) i remember the days when options where relay bad

o and dont forget macvideocards he's almost doing what you want, and it's much cheaper than 250k card order
 
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ActionableMango

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Sep 21, 2010
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How about we collect money to a willing software developer to create GOP or EFI rom's for the supported by Apple AMD cards? I am sure there are willing Apple developers former or current Apple engineers :)
I don't know how you would find that person and trust that person. I don't see a lot of people willing to fund someone they've never heard of, or how you would differentiate that from a straight up scam.
 

startergo

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I don't know how you would find that person and trust that person. I don't see a lot of people willing to fund someone they've never heard of, or how you would differentiate that from a straight up scam.
I don't know the legality but we can use escrow. I can talk to my lawyer to see what are the possibilities. Do we have a genius on board :)?
 

bookemdano

macrumors 65816
Jul 29, 2011
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Drivers are hard, as it requires intimate knowledge of not only software but the hardware it interfaces with.

While it would be nice to have the boot picker and single user/verbose modes, the only real draw of a UGA card for me would be FileVault. And even if we could get a UGA ROM for the 560/580 the fact remains that Apple has implemented a hard block for enabling FV2 in Mojave for all cMP users. The only known workaround has important differences from "normal" FileVault and has absolutely no guarantees that it won't break or prevent future Mojave updates.

Because Apple has to assume that most people don't have a card capable of bootscreens in Mojave, they are likely to leave that block in place. Our only hope would be trying to convince them to offer a terminal command override, or figuring out a way to remove the block via hacking. The former sounds unlikely (Apple already has two boot screen-capable cards on their "recommended" list and did not bother to provide an override for them). The latter sounds risky. Disk encryption is something you want to be officially supported, because if something goes wrong you risk losing all of your files.

So I'm not really enthused about this idea--not enough to pony up $$ up-front at least. It just seems that the benefits would not be enough to justify the cost and risk involved.

Sorry to be a Debbie Downer. :(
 

ActionableMango

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Sep 21, 2010
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I can't remember the exact details, but I seem to remember previous discussion about why we can't just take Mac EFI ROM elements from iMac or whatever, and plop them into a PC RX580 like we would have done in the past. I seem to remember something about VEGA having signed ROMs or something like that? Not sure. Maybe it's something else, but I do remember reading that era is over for some reason.

Do we have a genius on board :)?
Netkas and MVC have done miracles but they have existing business already, so I assume if they could, they would have done it already and be selling modified RX580.

The reason I suggested a graphics card company is that they have access to the source code and engineering documentation. There is also the nice side benefit of rights to change it and sell it, and to sign it too, if indeed that's a requirement now.

@bookemdano brings up a good point too. Back when I flashed 680 and paid for MVC980, there were numerous features exclusive to cards with MAC EFI. But over the years one by one Apple has changed enough things that the differences are now very few.

That being said, there is clearly still some hunger for it, judging by the talented people here working on boot screen issue.
 
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startergo

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I am willing to pay apple a one time charge for developing a boot screen in the EFI, aren't you?
 

orph

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well there's not a huge point in selling AMD cards id gess, your competing with amazon and using the cards stock bios.

with nvidia there's a real need for some high end cards (with a good margin on) for CUDA apps for professional use (they can pay and money is needed for work) and that market may get bigger with eGPU's or a new macpro (or the new macmin)
and relay for work there needs to be money and MVC are doing good work for those that want it

dont think AMD cards have the same attraction, vega bios cant be changed AMD locked it down.
the only work around i know of is criptocoin miners have a version of linux that swaps the gpu driver after boot :rolleyes: crazy miners
and it looks like we can hack the powerplay tables so bios changes may not be needed (hope the RX 580 power play tables get looked at next :D)

we may see a new macpro with PCI slots then there will be new option's but we relay are hitting the point where high end cards are not worth it in cmp's, for eGPU and a macmin i see the point.

any way Vega 7nm soon and if that works on osx it will be worth waiting for, power use will drop and we may see a full line of cards from RX 560/570/580 and up which will be a nice step up

we may see nvidia RTX support and if you wait for the second gen line with the new shrink they may be relay nice options (plus by next gen we can hope the bugs will be fixed, there will be bugs this is a real new thing)

2020 i think intels going to have a GPU :rolleyes: good luck

edit @startergo http://www.macvidcards.com/ there you go boot screens ;)

edit 2
wow im slow
AMD Polaris & Vega GPU macOS Support
7nm AMD is out lol

and relay as i mentioned it's a golden age of GPU for cmp with amd cards they all work with almost no problems and even apple blessing :eek: it's like the GTX680/HD 7950 but cheaper amazing i got a RX 580 8GB for £120 thats almost nothing for an apple GPU
what i want is to see AMD CPU's in a mac, the potential of a macpro with threadriper or if AMD can pack more cores in to a consumer CPU my god the scaling we may see
 
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startergo

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Sep 20, 2018
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well there's not a huge point in selling AMD cards id gess, your competing with amazon and using the cards stock bios.

with nvidia there's a real need for some high end cards (with a good margin on) for CUDA apps for professional use (they can pay and money is needed for work) and that market may get bigger with eGPU's or a new macpro (or the new macmin)
and relay for work there needs to be money and MVC are doing good work for those that want it

dont think AMD cards have the same attraction, vega bios cant be changed AMD locked it down.
the only work around i know of is criptocoin miners have a version of linux that swaps the gpu driver after boot :rolleyes: crazy miners
and it looks like we can hack the powerplay tables so bios changes may not be needed (hope the RX 580 power play tables get looked at next :D)

we may see a new macpro with PCI slots then there will be new option's but we relay are hitting the point where high end cards are not worth it in cmp's, for eGPU and a macmin i see the point.

any way Vega 7nm soon and if that works on osx it will be worth waiting for, power use will drop and we may see a full line of cards from RX 560/570/580 and up which will be a nice step up

we may see nvidia RTX support and if you wait for the second gen line with the new shrink they may be relay nice options (plus by next gen we can hope the bugs will be fixed, there will be bugs this is a real new thing)

2020 i think intels going to have a GPU :rolleyes: good luck

edit @startergo http://www.macvidcards.com/ there you go boot screens ;)

edit 2
wow im slow
AMD Polaris & Vega GPU macOS Support
7nm AMD is out lol

and relay as i mentioned it's a golden age of GPU for cmp with amd cards they all work with almost no problems and even apple blessing :eek: it's like the GTX680/HD 7950 but cheaper amazing i got a RX 580 8GB for £120 thats almost nothing for an apple GPU
what i want is to see AMD CPU's in a mac, the potential of a macpro with threadriper or if AMD can pack more cores in to a consumer CPU my god the scaling we may see
According to both Nvidia and Apple, there will be no Mojave drivers for Nvidia cards. You can still have your hopes for the next OSX version though :)
 

rippiedoos

macrumors member
Nov 9, 2013
54
22
Has anybody tried an AMD HD7750 yet? It’s a slow card but should have metal support and should be injectable with boot screens like a 7950. Only problem for me is that nobody sells these anymore. And the R7 250 isn’t available either, it’s rebadged version.
 

LucMac

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Dec 17, 2014
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GERMANY
Has anybody tried an AMD HD7750 yet? It’s a slow card but should have metal support and should be injectable with boot screens like a 7950. Only problem for me is that nobody sells these anymore. And the R7 250 isn’t available either, it’s rebadged version.
Search for AMD Radeon R9 280X on eBay. Bootscreen is possible, Mojave & Metal support and faster than the 7750 card.
 

rippiedoos

macrumors member
Nov 9, 2013
54
22
Search for AMD Radeon R9 280X on eBay. Bootscreen is possible, Mojave & Metal support and faster than the 7750 card.
True, but the R9 280X needs a double 6-pin-PCIe-connector or even a 6+8-pin-PCIe-connector and is double wide. That doesn't fit next to my RX580 or RX570 at the same time.

For instance the Club3D HD 7750 is a single slot card without the need for an extra PCIe-connector. Basically a drop-in-replacement for the GT120, if flashed.

I'm hoping to obtain one soon, but as I said, it's rather hard to get. Maybe Sapphire, Club3D or PowerColor have some left? Anybody has contacts at one of these companies?
 

startergo

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Sep 20, 2018
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True, but the R9 280X needs a double 6-pin-PCIe-connector or even a 6+8-pin-PCIe-connector and is double wide. That doesn't fit next to my RX580 or RX570 at the same time.

For instance the Club3D HD 7750 is a single slot card without the need for an extra PCIe-connector. Basically a drop-in-replacement for the GT120, if flashed.

I'm hoping to obtain one soon, but as I said, it's rather hard to get. Maybe Sapphire, Club3D or PowerColor have some left? Anybody has contacts at one of these companies?
Why would you wanna occupy the second PCIe slot with a card you only use on occasions ( For boot screen)? If you need boot screen you can always temporarily install GT-120.
 

rippiedoos

macrumors member
Nov 9, 2013
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startergo

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And how would you boot into Mojave? IIRC GT120 locks up Mojave if it is still in present in the MacPro

RX580 & GT120 & Mojave = stuck in boot
But my question was: why do you need a boot screen to login to Mojave? You can login with the single RX-580. Nowadays I will only need bootscreen for troubleshooting purposes not related to the loaded Mojave. That would include scenarios like EFI shell troubleshooting, or flashing my main card in Windows, where I can login with the GT-120 and the RX-580 together. So I can flash any vbios to my RX-580 not worrying that I will not be able to restore the working bios. I don't see a usage of 2 cards in Mojave.
 

rippiedoos

macrumors member
Nov 9, 2013
54
22
I would like to switch to my Windows Bootcamp-install. That was broken in Mojave I also read somewhere or just doesn't work anymore. So the bootpicker is nice to have. And removing the card and putting it back in every time I want to switch to Windows, I'm just too lazy for that.
 

startergo

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Sep 20, 2018
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I would like to switch to my Windows Bootcamp-install. That was broken in Mojave I also read somewhere or just doesn't work anymore. So the bootpicker is nice to have. And removing the card and putting it back in every time I want to switch to Windows, I'm just too lazy for that.
Everything works fine if you install the bootcamp windows driver for imacpro:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/how-to-boot-camp-without-a-boot-screen.2114788/page-9#post-26689280
From Mojave I use the blessing command to bless the correct Windows EFI and reboot
 

orph

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Dec 12, 2005
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RTX Series Cards have Native Bootscreen Support!
looks like "2080Ti Founders edition" is good
edit RTX 2070 8GB too
edit 2 mm im tad confused by new post's

[doublepost=1541613966][/doublepost]@rippiedoos relay? you are swapping GPU to boot in windows
you can just uses system prefes
or bootchamp or a like app
or rEfit
it's easy,

filevalt is the only legit thing people want that you cant get with PC cards,
i dont think more than 5% of people actually want/need that & if they need it that bad there's the option to buy a computer that can use it.
 
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rippiedoos

macrumors member
Nov 9, 2013
54
22
RTX Series Cards have Native Bootscreen Support!
looks like "2080Ti Founders edition" is good
edit RTX 2070 8GB too

[doublepost=1541613966][/doublepost]@rippiedoos relay? you are swapping GPU to boot in windows
you can just uses system prefes
or bootchamp or a like app
or rEfit
it's easy,

filevalt is the only legit thing people want that you cant get with PC cards,
i dont think more than 5% of people actually want/need that & if they need it that bad there's the option to buy a computer that can use it.
No, I don’t swap GPU to boot into Windows. That’s why I want a 7750 to have the boot picker. At the moment I’m still on 10.13.6 because of me only having a GT120 and Mojave wasn’t an option thus far. But now I have a RX570 and pulled out my GT120 to do that upgrade.

I think I should install iMacPro boot camp utils and look for some other way to boot into Windows from inside macOS, with manual bless or something else as suggested.