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A lot of this is speculating and not based on fact.

What is a fact: DCTs are better (read faster than a manual), there is no lag between shifting, and are becoming increasingly popular where speed is critical.

Yes, the DCT is faster from 0 to 60; sure. But wide open throttle from a dead start is rarely done unless you're 16. The real world acceleration happens on-ramping to a highway, accelerating around a mountain curve and passing someone from 50mph to 75. The control of a manual is much more satisfying in these circumstances.
 
Yes, the DCT is faster from 0 to 60; sure. But wide open throttle from a dead start is rarely done unless you're 16. The real world acceleration happens on-ramping to a highway, accelerating around a mountain curve and passing someone from 50mph to 75. The control of a manual is much more satisfying in these circumstances.
Satisfying, but not better.
 
The problem with a lot of manuals--especially on FWD cars with their cable-based shifters--is that finding the right gear can be a real hit-or-miss proposition. Maybe I was kind of spoiled, because I really like the manual on my brother's first-generation Toyota MR2 with its really crisp shifts and being easy to find any gear. A lot of people like the new Mazda Miata because Mazda really did a wonderful job of developing a really good shifting mechanism.

Most of my personal cars have been manuals, and all of my work trucks have been manuals as well. I've driven a LOT of different cars and you are right, there are a LOT terrible shifters out there. Once of the many reasons I liked my old Fox Mustang was because the shifter was part of the transmission, not an external unit with some sort of linkage to connect them. With a good aftermarket shifter with positive stops and the factory shifter handle it felt fantastic. I always knew EXACTLY where the shifter was.
 
A dying breed perhaps. I learned on a manual shift in my yard before I even had my license--and it was a 3-speed on the steering stalk--1962 Ford Falcon. Most of my cars were manual transmissions with the exception of a 1972 Ford Pinto. My last manual was a 2001 BMW 330i 5-speed. But I decided to hang up my shifting gloves and take a trip on the green side with a 2015 Ford C-Max Hybrid--love the car and to be honest, I'm glad to be done with manual shifting--although I have to say I am really loving the CVT--certainly the smoothest automatic I've driven.
 
That's an awful analogy.

Well, you do have to have the whole context (and consider the source!)


KRAMER: Har-harwood, Jerry. He was the assistant wardrobe man on Spartacus. Some fascinating insights into the production.

GEORGE: Why would I spend seven dollars to see a movie that I could watch on TV?

KRAMER: Well, why go to a fine restaurant, when you can just stick something in the microwave? Why go to the park and fly a kite, when you can just pop a pill?
 
A lot of this is speculating and not based on fact.

What is a fact: DCTs are better (read faster than a manual), there is no lag between shifting, and are becoming increasingly popular where speed is critical.

See also: Ferrari.

I think you should be looking up what a 'fact' is and what 'speculation' and what is 'opinion'. You apparently think the definition of "better" is "faster" and then mistake your opinion for a fact. Control is lost on you (i.e. manually controlled sequential shifting's downside along with automatic gear selection). Most DCTs (e.g. VW and Ford reports in particular) are NOT perfectly smooth, particularly at low speeds despite being fast (a person good with manuals can be silky smooth) and they typically weigh considerably more than a manual transmission. Repairs will inevitably cost more as well due to increased complexity and more parts (e.g. dual clutch discs). Most of these things won't matter much in racing, but they do matter in every day driving to some people. Ultimately, for many of us, driving a car is about more than just how fast you can get to 60mph.

Satisfying, but not better.

This proves my point beyond the shadow of a doubt. Go look up "better" and then try to quantify it with the word "fact". I think you'll find what you keep calling "facts" are actually just your personal opinions. The "fact" you seem to think your opinions are the only ones relevant in the Universe doesn't really matter to the rest of us.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

At the end of the day, performance cars are going to DCTs because they are smarter, smoother, safer, and real world faster.

I'm of the OPINION that you don't know how to drive a stick or you wouldn't keep ragging on them constantly. Actually, it could just be Ego at work (gotta be right and cram it down everyone's throat that dares to disagree). Either way, I don't really care to read your posts anymore.
 
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I'm of the OPINION that you don't know how to drive a stick or you wouldn't keep ragging on them constantly. Actually, it could just be Ego at work (gotta be right and cram it down everyone's throat that dares to disagree). Either way, I don't really care to read your posts anymore.
You get so offended by the use of the word "better". I'm not even going to justify your useless rant with a response, only to say that my second car out of school was an Audi A4 Quattro, with (you guessed it) a manual transmission, and my third car is a Acura TSX SE with (predictably) a manual transmission.

When you drive a DCT, you understand exactly why they're becoming so prevalent. The gear shift with rev matching is just so instant. Do I lament the loss of a manual? Maybe a little, but when I drove around in my loaner TLX 2.4L DCT, I got why people really like it.
 
Just because something is faster doesn't mean it's more fun or satisfying to drive. I rent a lot of cars and have driven a bunch of the current turbo stuff, they are boring compared to my old Mustang that had a bunch of turbo lag. A Kenworth with a non-syncro 10-speed and no trailer is a riot to drive on twisty roads and extremely satisfyingly when you nail all the shifts. I think what a lot of cars are missing these days is that character that makes them fun, even if it slows them down or makes them more challenging to drive.
 
I've driven and owned both. Generally don't mind the latest autos as they are quicker than a manual (yes it's true - the computer can shift better, faster, and at the right points 100% of the time). They also have decent enough manual controls when you want to have fun.

Even in automatic mode it is simple - drop the pedal to the floor and it will drop 1-3 gears instantaneously and away you go. About the same as the "let's downshift and go" in a stick. Modern torque management (most autos cut or reduce power during shifts) means long life for autos too.

Yes, it's not the same exact thing but bussing around the mountains in the automatic in manual mode is satisfying enough for me. The one I've got will bounce off the rev limiter and works real well. That combines with a twin turbo V6 makes it fun in the mountains!

Most auto cars test faster than their manual counterparts. IIRC the Dodge Challenger was quicker in every metric with the auto vs the stick. And even auto cars are quicker when you let the computer do the shifting. I remember when the Ecoboost vehicles (Taurus SHO, Flex, etc) came out, all the mags said they were faster letting the computer shift vs the manual mode. Because the computer makes perfect shifts every time where you want them for maximum power. Without Fail. Something you and I can't do.
 
itguy06, before you're run off this message thread, ;) we forget that today's automatics are VASTLY better than the old automatics. With the application of computerized controls, transmission manufacturers could get rid of most of the heavy and complex hydraulics that automatics used to require. And that means WAY lower weight for the transmission and with computerized controls, a lot faster shifts between gears and no more "hunting" between gears when going uphill. In fact, I've driven a Hyundai Sonata and (US market) Hyundai Accent with their six-speed automatics and these automatics shift gears very quickly and going uphill, you don't have the annoying "hunting" between gears that plagued the old three- and four-speed automatics.
 
Driving an automatic just feels like you're in a go kart to be honest.
 
My car doesn't feel like a go kart and its an automatic :p

My WRX feels like a go-kart and it's nothing to do with the shifting, but rather how it goes around 25mph curves at 60mph without even a hint of body roll. My turbo Forester is almost as fast, but doesn't do corners quite like that. It's also rather boring with the automatic/paddle-shift CVT. It may not be as smooth or fast shifting as a DCT (I'm sure the gas mileage is better as CVTs are vastly better than DCTs with gas mileage), but even if it were perfectly smooth (and DCTs as a rule are not perfectly smooth either from the various accounts of I've read of different models), it wouldn't matter. It's still BORING to do nothing more than press a pedal to go forward.

I'm sure those who can't stand stick shifts (most of which I assume is because they require skill to operate properly) would disagree since otherwise they would have to give up driving entirely, but pressing a sequential paddle "click" is just not the same. It feels more like a video game and a bad one at that (and I have a high-end Logitech steering whee/pedal for my Windows machine with the Test Drive Unlimited games and a dozen others and that has a 6-speed plus paddle shifters along with a full clutch/brake/gas pedal setup and so I know what driving games "feel" like). No clutch (or a digital one with no feedback) feels like a video game shifter. Clicking a paddle to shift feels like a computer directive and it IS a computer directive. You have no actual connection to the drive train what-so-ever. The car may not shift right away because it thinks you are going too slow to go to a higher gear and therefore won't "let" you, even if you know you're on a flat piece of road that's starting to go down hill and you will get better gas mileage. Too bad. It knows better. It overrides your command. The new Corvette with the 7-speed manual....unless disabled, it has "gates" that come up and BLOCK you from selecting certain gears because it's decided for you that you could get better gas mileage so it interferes with your "manual" control. That's supposed to be FUN? There's no synchronicity to tapping a paddle through sequential gears, not rhythm like pressing a clutch in, shifting through the next gear and releasing, like rowing a boat. I don't care how much faster a computer is at shifting, if it's not fun it's not worth having. I'm not on the street like some child drag racing in the streets and asking to lose my license. I want to roam through the mountains and country roads with just me and my machine and not some computer programmer getting between me and that machine. Your mileage may vary.
 
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My dad taught me to drive manual at 15, because all the cars in my household were manual. I didn't learn to drive automatic until I was in college, and was in my 30s before I stopped panicking when my foot went for the clutch and there was no clutch. I have never owned an automatic. I don't like them - they rarely shift when I would and often just feel sluggish to me.
 
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My WRX feels like a go-kart and it's nothing to do with the shifting, but rather how it goes around 25mph curves at 60mph without even a hint of body roll. My turbo Forester is almost as fast, but doesn't do corners quite like that. It's also rather boring with the automatic/paddle-shift CVT. It may not be as smooth or fast shifting as a DCT (I'm sure the gas mileage is better as CVTs are vastly better than DCTs with gas mileage), but even if it were perfectly smooth (and DCTs as a rule are not perfectly smooth either from the various accounts of I've read of different models), it wouldn't matter. It's still BORING to do nothing more than press a pedal to go forward.

I'm sure those who can't stand stick shifts (most of which I assume is because they require skill to operate properly) would disagree since otherwise they would have to give up driving entirely, but pressing a sequential paddle "click" is just not the same. It feels more like a video game and a bad one at that (and I have a high-end Logitech steering whee/pedal for my Windows machine with the Test Drive Unlimited games and a dozen others and that has a 6-speed plus paddle shifters along with a full clutch/brake/gas pedal setup and so I know what driving games "feel" like). No clutch (or a digital one with no feedback) feels like a video game shifter. Clicking a paddle to shift feels like a computer directive and it IS a computer directive. You have no actual connection to the drive train what-so-ever. The car may not shift right away because it thinks you are going too slow to go to a higher gear and therefore won't "let" you, even if you know you're on a flat piece of road that's starting to go down hill and you will get better gas mileage. Too bad. It knows better. It overrides your command. The new Corvette with the 7-speed manual....unless disabled, it has "gates" that come up and BLOCK you from selecting certain gears because it's decided for you that you could get better gas mileage so it interferes with your "manual" control. That's supposed to be FUN? There's no synchronicity to tapping a paddle through sequential gears, not rhythm like pressing a clutch in, shifting through the next gear and releasing, like rowing a boat. I don't care how much faster a computer is at shifting, if it's not fun it's not worth having. I'm not on the street like some child drag racing in the streets and asking to lose my license. I want to roam through the mountains and country roads with just me and my machine and not some computer programmer getting between me and that machine. Your mileage may vary.

I agree 100% with all your posts on this subject.

But I must mention that you are literally raging against the machine in an Apple forum, where users are used to, comfortable with, and may even prefer giving control away and letting the (Apple) "machine" dictate what's "best".

My predilection for manuals is both simple and practical: I find them more fun (and accurate) to drive, (comparatively) cheaper to repair, and if/when my battery dies, I don't have to wait for AAA or a jump.

So, opinions be damned, YES, I can drive a stick shift car, and the above is why.
 
The new Corvette with the 7-speed manual....unless disabled, it has "gates" that come up and BLOCK you from selecting certain gears because it's decided for you that you could get better gas mileage so it interferes with your "manual" control. That's supposed to be FUN?

Just to clarify on this specific implementation (CAGS): it's to avoid a gas guzzler tax, it's easily "driven around", and the [aftermarket] part to remove it costs ~$15 and takes 5 minutes to install (or a DIY version for ~$0.50). Sure it's a silly, and sometimes intrusive mechanism, but I appreciate the workaround to avoid the extra cost (ie., the GG) by GM, and them making it so easy [I suspect by design] to disable. :)

Owned 3 manual Vettes with CAGS present, all three were disabled as soon as I got them home :D
 
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