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Wow, this is an old thread!

But I saw it, so I'll bite:

It is a shame manuals are dying. There is no other type of transmission I'd rather have. If a car comes with it, I choose it. This is why:

- Less costly to repair (transmissions)
- You can start your car (by pushing or towing) should the battery die
- Generally more fuel-efficient
- You can use engine-braking to slow you down (less wear on brakes)

and most importantly,

- I have COMPLETE control over my vehicle and its dynamics.

Therefore, driving a manual is more FUN.

In addition, if there we're more manuals on the road, there'd probably be less people texting and driving too.

I learned when I was in my teens and have never looked back, and never had an accident (rolling backwards, etc).
 
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Semis actually jake braking in a metro area is annoying as hell.

The jake brake actually has a switch to engage it (it opens the exhaust valves when the piston is near the top dead center to turn engine into a power absorbing air compressor). In other words, a "Jake Brake" is NOT just letting off the gas in a lower gear (normal engine braking). That's why it's so loud.

It is a shame manuals are dying.

I didn't know they were. It seemed like it for a bit, but I see a lot of newer models with 6-speed options, especially smaller cars. Hell, they even give them out on the Price is Right.

As for fuel mileage, that used to be true that manuals were generally better, but CVTs have pretty much changed that, especially for city driving. I'm averaging 4-6 more MPG with my Turbo Forester CVT over my WRX manual. It is the newer direct injection engine, but stepping on it they do about the same. I notice the difference when I'm behaving myself. It takes a lot more grannying on the WRX to approach those Forester numbers to the point where the WRX is no longer fun to drive (shifting at 2000 RPM and the like). But then I didn't buy either for gas mileage (although it is nice the newer direct injection engine with twin scrolls no longer requires premium and short of racing, I'm wont to notice the difference).
 
Yeah, the argument that manuals are more fuel-efficient or reliable (hence less expensive to maintain) than automatics is no longer really the case. They might be sometimes still less expensive to spec on a new car, but on others, the volume is so low that the price ends up near the same.
 
Yeah, the argument that manuals are more fuel-efficient or reliable (hence less expensive to maintain) than automatics is no longer really the case. They might be sometimes still less expensive to spec on a new car, but on others, the volume is so low that the price ends up near the same.

I have to disagree with you on that. An automatic transmission vehicle is commonly more expensive than the manual (when offered). An automatic transmission is also known to be more expensive to replace and generally more problematic than a clutch setup. Car powertrain warranties and better general quality have stepped up to bring this issue under control, though.

On the other hand, I concede that fuel efficiency has been brought up to speed on newer automatics, so it is basically a wash, particularly in city driving.

Manuals are being introduced mainly at the bottom of the barrel, and at the performance range for many cars. But in the middle section, it's mostly autos. It's ironic that most SUVs don't come with manuals either. I would've loved my Honda Pilot to have a stick instead.

Let me reiterate, this is my personal preference. One's not better than the other in an absolute sense, particularly when it comes to the user/driver. I ALWAYS drive my 2012 Hyundai Accent like I stole it. Thank you, Waze!!
 
I generally prefer manuals as well, but there is no real argument anymore - except for specific problematic models, an automatic transmission should have no issue going 150k-200k with zero maintenance any more, whereas most manuals will require at least one clutch replacement during that interval. Yes, it's more expensive at purchase, but if you resell, that's largely a wash, and if you don't, you have the clutch to deal with at some point. I wouldn't let that sway me personally one way or the other - but most of the old negatives of automatics no longer really apply.
 
Wow, this is an old thread!

But I saw it, so I'll bite:

It is a shame manuals are dying. There is no other type of transmission I'd rather have. If a car comes with it, I choose it. This is why:

- Less costly to repair (transmissions)
- You can start your car (by pushing or towing) should the battery die
- Generally more fuel-efficient
- You can use engine-braking to slow you down (less wear on brakes)

and most importantly,

- I have COMPLETE control over my vehicle and its dynamics.

Therefore, driving a manual is more FUN.

In addition, if there we're more manuals on the road, there'd probably be less people texting and driving too.

I learned when I was in my teens and have never looked back, and never had an accident (rolling backwards, etc).
See, I agree with all of this, but in reality:
  • Manuals are brutal in traffic
  • A huge portion of the population can't drive them (a huge problem if your life depends on your car for whatever reason)
  • The various DCTs and PDKs and the like are just so good now, they represent a good compromise for most performance oriented drivers because DCTs are just faster shifting and smoother than manuals.
  • Reality is manuals will be gone, but self driving cars will ultimately be the final answer to the texting/drinking and driving problems.
 
I have to disagree with you on that. An automatic transmission vehicle is commonly more expensive than the manual (when offered). An automatic transmission is also known to be more expensive to replace and generally more problematic than a clutch setup. Car powertrain warranties and better general quality have stepped up to bring this issue under control, though.
In principle, this should be true, but the difference is shrinking. Manuals are now a fringe feature, so many companies charge more for manuals. Also, nearly every brand uses predominantly automatics, so there's actually significantly more expertise in fixing them, so the expense of fixing an auto is neutralized.

Finally, and this is key, in the minds of automotive companies and the average consumer, the more control you give to computers, the more reliable the final product. An automatic can be set such that it maximizes economy or performance or whatever. A manual, on the other hand puts the control in an imperfect machine, human beings. The car knows how it is supposed to run and is a better manager of the complicated automobile than is a human being.
 
In principle, this should be true, but the difference is shrinking. Manuals are now a fringe feature, so many companies charge more for manuals. Also, nearly every brand uses predominantly automatics, so there's actually significantly more expertise in fixing them, so the expense of fixing an auto is neutralized.

Finally, and this is key, in the minds of automotive companies and the average consumer, the more control you give to computers, the more reliable the final product. An automatic can be set such that it maximizes economy or performance or whatever. A manual, on the other hand puts the control in an imperfect machine, human beings. The car knows how it is supposed to run and is a better manager of the complicated automobile than is a human being.

I have seen the opposite in practice; the price of parts and labor has been consistently higher on autos. But perhaps it's different in your markets.

That last bit is the key issue I have a problem with: I want more control of my vehicle, not less. That said, the engine bits that are computerized should have no bearing on the choices a driver makes in controlling such an inherently dangerous machine. I don't want a computer glitch throwing my stability control out of whack and locking a rear wheel without my consent, or shifting my vehicle to a lower gear at high speed, etc.

These scenarios are admittedly unlikely (but plausible), but they're meant to illustrate my point. We're not talking about fuel injectors or any other mechanism to increase fuel efficiency or engine optimization.

The transmission is a key vehicle control component that I, the pilot, would rather NOT want automated in any way. I would be putting my trust and my life and the life of those around me on the road onto an electronic device, the factory that builds it, the people that program it, etc, instead of ME. All these contain human error. When it comes to vehicles, I'll take mechanical over electronic any day. I'll NEVER buy a self-driving car, and where I can help it, an automatic tranny. Simply because there is no substitute for knowing how to operate a vehicle properly. A car should NEVER become an iPad, unless it's on a track (like trains…and even then I would want a conductor).

But again, to each his/her own.

I guess it's fitting that we're discussing this on an Apple forum because you're right: I can see how these companies envision that wresting control from the user is where it's at.
 
Embarrassed myself trying to drive a manual BMW E60 today. Couldn't get it up a hill.

I need to get some more practice lol
 
I used to drive a manual but now i'm so removed from it that I would get a little nervous on some of the Austin hills.
Yeah, I used to have a manual GTI years ago. Haven't really driven one since then. The clutch on the BMW felt completely different from what I was used to on a VW.
 
This is a great thread. Last week I raced my cousin's auto F150 in my little V4 manual Ranger. Beat him by a long way. He couldn't wrap his head around how I took off like I did until he went for a drive with me and saw how I hauled through the gears and shifted quickly. (Sidebar, the Mazda M5OD is not built for quick shifts...) The manual transmission makes it so peppy. Much more than an auto V4 Ranger (ugh). The thing I really want is a six speed transmission as my MPG starts to drop around an average speed of 70MPH to about 26MPG. Sadly I may never find a compatible transmission for it.
 
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The transmission is a key vehicle control component that I, the pilot, would rather NOT want automated in any way. I would be putting my trust and my life and the life of those around me on the road onto an electronic device, the factory that builds it, the people that program it, etc, instead of ME. All these contain human error. When it comes to vehicles, I'll take mechanical over electronic any day. I'll NEVER buy a self-driving car, and where I can help it, an automatic tranny. Simply because there is no substitute for knowing how to operate a vehicle properly. A car should NEVER become an iPad, unless it's on a track (like trains…and even then I would want a conductor).
While I respect and share your perception, the reality is you are NOT a better driver/gear changer than the computer car. It's hard to believe, but true.
 
While I respect and share your perception, the reality is you are NOT a better driver/gear changer than the computer car. It's hard to believe, but true.
I'll agree with this. Modern automatics/DCTs are almost always in the right gear at the right time. This is quite evident in all the cars with the ZF 8 speed or a great example of a DCT that is always correct is PDK or BMW DCT.
 
While I respect and share your perception, the reality is you are NOT a better driver/gear changer than the computer car. It's hard to believe, but true.

Yes, but reality is a completely different thing than perceived reality. Why do you think so many people are anxious to fly in airplanes? They are not in control. They'd rather drive their car or, if they could, their own plane. Statistically, travelling with airplanes is the safest way to go... That is actual reality.
 
Yes, but reality is a completely different thing than perceived reality. Why do you think so many people are anxious to fly in airplanes? They are not in control. They'd rather drive their car or, if they could, their own plane. Statistically, travelling with airplanes is the safest way to go... That is actual reality.
People are very similarly not in control of buses or trains for example, but the vast majority isn't anxious about those, many not even giving that aspect of it much of a though really.
 
People are very similarly not in control of buses or trains for example, but the vast majority isn't anxious about those, many not even giving that aspect of it much of a though really.

Yeah, I don't think it's the lack of control that makes people scared of flying, I think it's the whole defying the laws of gravity by being in a metal tube going 500 miles an hour 30,000 feet off the ground that scares people. But I wouldn't know, I don't have a fear of flying.

When it comes to manual transmissions, I know I'm not better at shifting than a computer and even a good DCT would put even the best drivers to shame. I know I'm not even the world's greatest manual driver. Been doing it for nearly 10 years and still have occasional jerky starts or shifts from 1st to 2nd, and I occasionally over or under rev while revmatching a downshift. I still like them more than automatics.
 
While I respect and share your perception, the reality is you are NOT a better driver/gear changer than the computer car. It's hard to believe, but true.

Agreed, but for your average car driving a automatic is less satisfying than the interaction of being in control of the shifting sequence, with the caveat that's important to the individual. Even automatics with a manual shifting feature is less satisfying, IMO.

Yes, but reality is a completely different thing than perceived reality. Why do you think so many people are anxious to fly in airplanes? They are not in control. They'd rather drive their car or, if they could, their own plane. Statistically, travelling with airplanes is the safest way to go... That is actual reality.

Not a great comparison, IMO. See yg17's post. :)

People are very similarly not in control of buses or trains for example, but the vast majority isn't anxious about those, many not even giving that aspect of it much of a though really.

Agreed, although after a serious car accident, for about 3 months, I kept urging drivers, with me as a passenger to slow down. ;)

Yeah, I don't think it's the lack of control that makes people scared of flying, I think it's the whole defying the laws of gravity by being in a metal tube going 500 miles an hour 30,000 feet off the ground that scares people. But I wouldn't know, I don't have a fear of flying.

When it comes to manual transmissions, I know I'm not better at shifting than a computer and even a good DCT would put even the best drivers to shame. I know I'm not even the world's greatest manual driver. Been doing it for nearly 10 years and still have occasional jerky starts or shifts from 1st to 2nd, and I occasionally over or under rev while revmatching a downshift. I still like them more than automatics.

That nails it regarding flying, not being in control of a fast moving object, high off the ground, and when something goes wrong you can't simply pull to the shoulder, along with the prospect of that long drop to think about your impending demise. :D
 
See, I agree with all of this, but in reality:
  • Manuals are brutal in traffic
Unless you have a racing clutch or no leg muscles, traffic isn't usually that big a deal unless it drags on for hours (traffic jam creeping along at constantly changing slow speeds). Of course, if you keep stalling constantly, I guess it would seem brutal to you.

  • A huge portion of the population can't drive them (a huge problem if your life depends on your car for whatever reason)

Correction. A huge part of the US population can't drive them. It's not that way in most of Europe. This is a good thing in the US, however. It means your manual car is less likley to be stolen or car jacked.

  • The various DCTs and PDKs and the like are just so good now, they represent a good compromise for most performance oriented drivers because DCTs are just faster shifting and smoother than manuals.

And how many cars have DCTs and PDKs? Less than 5%? The REALITY is MOST cars have CVTs and 6 or 8-speed automatics these days. CVTs are here to stay. The idea that THOSE shift "smoother" than a competent person with a manual transmission is quite literally laughable. My Turbo 2015 Forester is smoother than old school automatics in "I" and "S" modes (it's downright jerky in S# mode that simulates a normal automatic that revs to red-line), but it's FAR from perfectly smooth and perfectly smooth is what a manual transmission is when you darn near perfectly rev-match your shifts. It's so smooth the passengers literally could not tell you shifted by feeling with their eyes shut. No CVT or traditional automatic is that smooth. CVTs still shift RPM zones based on acceleration and other parameters. They are not silky smooth when they suddenly shift. A Porsche with a PVK or a Ferrari with a DCT might do a bit better, but those are super cars and damn well should do better.

  • Reality is manuals will be gone, but self driving cars will ultimately be the final answer to the texting/drinking and driving problems.

Manuals will be around as long as there is a market for them. As for self-driving cars, they are not an "answer" to anything but a mindless race of texting zombies that would die the moment the power grid went out for more than a couple of hours. Those of us that actually enjoy driving would never accept a self-driving car run by some computer. Computers are only as good as the programmers and they can be hacked as a certain Jeep Cherokee recently proved. A hacker hacks your self-driving car and suddenly your "Johnny Cab" drives you off a cliff. People who think computers connected to the Internet can't be hacked are living in a dream world. Some of that self-driving technology is not only scary, it's downright fool hearty. We live in a world that is constantly under cyber attacks these days and until a Messiah or alien race FORCES people to behave themselves, it will continue to be the way it is. I have seen evidence younger generations are more likely to be both spoiled and naive and have unnerving social habits that will get them into endless trouble (i.e. joining Facebook is like throwing your Fourth Amendment rights to the wind, as if they haven't already been eroded by hacking and electronic document keeping on an unsecure Internet. Connecting the power grid to the Net in more and more involved ways ia a virtual guarantee of a future disaster. People are always asking if they CAN do something rather than if they SHOULD.

While I respect and share your perception, the reality is you are NOT a better driver/gear changer than the computer car. It's hard to believe, but true.

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. An automatic run by a computer is only as smart as the programmer who programmed it. What does "better" mean anyway? When I want to accelerate NOW I can do that in a manual. If I know it needs a downshift, I can immediately do it. My Turbo Forester hesitates. It's not sure how fast I want to go because it only has my foot movement on the accelerator pedal to give it an idea of what I WANT. After all, it's what I want that matters, not what it wants. Most CVTs and the like are programmed for maximum fuel economy. That is not very conducive to a "better" driving experience if you want performance. "Sport" modes are still compromises and no computer is a mind reader to know exactly the level of performance you WANT at a given time. Sequential shifting also takes TIME. I can't immediately get to 2nd gear in manual mode on a CVT. I have to tap-down and it's frustratingly slow. In a stick shift, you simply put it straight into the gear you want and off you go. If you don't get the acceleration you desire, it's YOUR fault. If I don't get the acceleration I desire in that Forester, it's often the computer's fault. And again, I point to the jerky shifting of ALL forms of automatics including CVTs compared to a competent driver in a manual.

Thus, I can only conclude that a computer controlled transmission drives better than YOU could drive. How a car does in a straight line "drag race" at maximum acceleration does not cover real world driving situations.

I'll agree with this. Modern automatics/DCTs are almost always in the right gear at the right time. This is quite evident in all the cars with the ZF 8 speed or a great example of a DCT that is always correct is PDK or BMW DCT.

WTF is a "right" gear??? Maximum fuel economy? That is the ONLY "right" gear I can think of for a computer to consistently pick as it cannot possibly know what level of acceleration you WANT at a given moment as I have indicated above. So how then can it be in the "right gear" ? Perhaps if accelerator pedals were more like fighter jet throttles that are linear from one end to the other it could choose the right gear to get a given acceleration curve, but in reality, that would be a pretty long throw pedal and difficult to gauge by your foot alone.

Really, all I see are "It drives better than me" arguments. I miss my 5-speed every time I drive my Forester. The level of CONTROL is sorely lacking by comparison. And no 6-speeds aren't automatically "better" than 5-speeds. The WRX puts the extra gear between 1st and 2nd, making a 1st gear that is so short it's pointless, yet slower to accelerate skipping it for that leg and requiring an extra shift (time) if you don't skip it. That is why the 2009-2014 5-speed WRX is consistently FASTER to 60mph than the STI variant. It's one less shift. If they had put the extra gear after 5th as an extra overdrive gear, it would have been useful for fuel economy at least. But the way I see so many people just "want" a 6-speed tells me most of them don't have a clue what they're looking for. More is not always better. In fact, if I could get better acceleration curves and fuel economy with 4 gears, I'd take it. Hell, ONE gear would be BEST if you had a linear engine and didn't have to deal with engines flying apart at high revolutions.
 
This is a great thread. Last week I raced my cousin's auto F150 in my little V4 manual Ranger. Beat him by a long way. He couldn't wrap his head around how I took off like I did until he went for a drive with me and saw how I hauled through the gears and shifted quickly. (Sidebar, the Mazda M5OD is not built for quick shifts...) The manual transmission makes it so peppy. Much more than an auto V4 Ranger (ugh). The thing I really want is a six speed transmission as my MPG starts to drop around an average speed of 70MPH to about 26MPG. Sadly I may never find a compatible transmission for it.
I have a Ranger with 4 cylinder and the manual as well. I love it to death, and some people like to tease me for having such a "wimpy" truck. I love the look on their faces when they see how the thing gets up and goes! :D
 
Unless you have a racing clutch or no leg muscles, traffic isn't usually that big a deal unless it drags on for hours (traffic jam creeping along at constantly changing slow speeds). Of course, if you keep stalling constantly, I guess it would seem brutal to you.



Correction. A huge part of the US population can't drive them. It's not that way in most of Europe. This is a good thing in the US, however. It means your manual car is less likley to be stolen or car jacked.



And how many cars have DCTs and PDKs? Less than 5%? The REALITY is MOST cars have CVTs and 6 or 8-speed automatics these days. CVTs are here to stay. The idea that THOSE shift "smoother" than a competent person with a manual transmission is quite literally laughable. My Turbo 2015 Forester is smoother than old school automatics in "I" and "S" modes (it's downright jerky in S# mode that simulates a normal automatic that revs to red-line), but it's FAR from perfectly smooth and perfectly smooth is what a manual transmission is when you darn near perfectly rev-match your shifts. It's so smooth the passengers literally could not tell you shifted by feeling with their eyes shut. No CVT or traditional automatic is that smooth. CVTs still shift RPM zones based on acceleration and other parameters. They are not silky smooth when they suddenly shift. A Porsche with a PVK or a Ferrari with a DCT might do a bit better, but those are super cars and damn well should do better.



Manuals will be around as long as there is a market for them. As for self-driving cars, they are not an "answer" to anything but a mindless race of texting zombies that would die the moment the power grid went out for more than a couple of hours. Those of us that actually enjoy driving would never accept a self-driving car run by some computer. Computers are only as good as the programmers and they can be hacked as a certain Jeep Cherokee recently proved. A hacker hacks your self-driving car and suddenly your "Johnny Cab" drives you off a cliff. People who think computers connected to the Internet can't be hacked are living in a dream world. Some of that self-driving technology is not only scary, it's downright fool hearty. We live in a world that is constantly under cyber attacks these days and until a Messiah or alien race FORCES people to behave themselves, it will continue to be the way it is. I have seen evidence younger generations are more likely to be both spoiled and naive and have unnerving social habits that will get them into endless trouble (i.e. joining Facebook is like throwing your Fourth Amendment rights to the wind, as if they haven't already been eroded by hacking and electronic document keeping on an unsecure Internet. Connecting the power grid to the Net in more and more involved ways ia a virtual guarantee of a future disaster. People are always asking if they CAN do something rather than if they SHOULD.



That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. An automatic run by a computer is only as smart as the programmer who programmed it. What does "better" mean anyway? When I want to accelerate NOW I can do that in a manual. If I know it needs a downshift, I can immediately do it. My Turbo Forester hesitates. It's not sure how fast I want to go because it only has my foot movement on the accelerator pedal to give it an idea of what I WANT. After all, it's what I want that matters, not what it wants. Most CVTs and the like are programmed for maximum fuel economy. That is not very conducive to a "better" driving experience if you want performance. "Sport" modes are still compromises and no computer is a mind reader to know exactly the level of performance you WANT at a given time. Sequential shifting also takes TIME. I can't immediately get to 2nd gear in manual mode on a CVT. I have to tap-down and it's frustratingly slow. In a stick shift, you simply put it straight into the gear you want and off you go. If you don't get the acceleration you desire, it's YOUR fault. If I don't get the acceleration I desire in that Forester, it's often the computer's fault. And again, I point to the jerky shifting of ALL forms of automatics including CVTs compared to a competent driver in a manual.

Thus, I can only conclude that a computer controlled transmission drives better than YOU could drive. How a car does in a straight line "drag race" at maximum acceleration does not cover real world driving situations.



WTF is a "right" gear??? Maximum fuel economy? That is the ONLY "right" gear I can think of for a computer to consistently pick as it cannot possibly know what level of acceleration you WANT at a given moment as I have indicated above. So how then can it be in the "right gear" ? Perhaps if accelerator pedals were more like fighter jet throttles that are linear from one end to the other it could choose the right gear to get a given acceleration curve, but in reality, that would be a pretty long throw pedal and difficult to gauge by your foot alone.

Really, all I see are "It drives better than me" arguments. I miss my 5-speed every time I drive my Forester. The level of CONTROL is sorely lacking by comparison. And no 6-speeds aren't automatically "better" than 5-speeds. The WRX puts the extra gear between 1st and 2nd, making a 1st gear that is so short it's pointless, yet slower to accelerate skipping it for that leg and requiring an extra shift (time) if you don't skip it. That is why the 2009-2014 5-speed WRX is consistently FASTER to 60mph than the STI variant. It's one less shift. If they had put the extra gear after 5th as an extra overdrive gear, it would have been useful for fuel economy at least. But the way I see so many people just "want" a 6-speed tells me most of them don't have a clue what they're looking for. More is not always better. In fact, if I could get better acceleration curves and fuel economy with 4 gears, I'd take it. Hell, ONE gear would be BEST if you had a linear engine and didn't have to deal with engines flying apart at high revolutions.
A lot of this is speculating and not based on fact.

What is a fact: DCTs are better (read faster than a manual), there is no lag between shifting, and are becoming increasingly popular where speed is critical.

See also: Ferrari.
 
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The problem with a lot of manuals--especially on FWD cars with their cable-based shifters--is that finding the right gear can be a real hit-or-miss proposition. Maybe I was kind of spoiled, because I really like the manual on my brother's first-generation Toyota MR2 with its really crisp shifts and being easy to find any gear. A lot of people like the new Mazda Miata because Mazda really did a wonderful job of developing a really good shifting mechanism.

As for automatics, today's six to eight-speed automatics aren't the mechanically complex, heavy, slow-shifting and fuel-consuming units of old. Thanks to modern electronics, they've done away with most of the complex and heavy hydraulics, and I almost bought a Hyundai Accent Sport hatchback because the six-speed automatic on that car shifted surprisingly smooth and quick, and never experienced the hunting between gears while going uphill.
 
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