Can you drive a stick shift car?

[Huntn]

There are a few isolated areas in New England (Vermont anyway) where apparently it was not uncommon up into the mid-20th century to find some possibly inadvertent inbreeding. Probably discovered via higher than expected rates of developmental delay or such, that first drew attention of educators or social caseworkers. But I had heard there were some instances of multiple stillbirths that indicated deadly recombination of recessive genes for fatal missteps in prenatal development. Whoever said ignorance is bliss was at least sometimes not correct... I'm trying to remember where I ran into that info, it may have been was while I was taking some courses at the New School in NYC.

On the car thing: I only drive a stick now and have only ever owned them. I always get a bit freaked out whenever I have to rent a car and it's an automatic; it takes me at least three or four stops (or hills, or approaches to curves) to quit looking for the clutch pedal.

Being able to shift down and keep moving around someone ahead of me who loses nerve and takes foot off gas approaching a snowy hillcrest has saved me more than once. I'd always stop at the village just past the downslope and tell the local deputy "There's guys in the ditch up top..." but I never dared to stop on the hill or I'd have been in the ditch along with them.

How I learned to drive a stick was on a hilly bunch of back roads with zero traffic except for a hay wagon once in awhile in summer. Best way! You have to be able to resume forward progress without stalling, skidding or sliding back and freaking out the guy behind you. This you do not want to learn while on, say, the ramp to the George Washington Bridge.

When I first started driving manual I used to sweat being stopped on a hill, especially driving a car with a low idling speed. The prospect of getting my foot from brake to the gas, while letting the clutch out an appropriate amount was terrifying. Until I became competent, I mastered keeping my foot on both the brake and gas to get the idle speed up a bit (for a certain car) anticipating the transisition from stopped to moving on a hill. Pickup trucks were the worst, short throw clutches (found in cars) were a godsend. I've told this before, but when we were first married, my only car was a manual 1975 Fiat Spider and my wife was a novice manual transmission driver. We lived on a hill and frequently she ended up rolling to the bottom of the hill (on purpose) so she could start back up.

 

[LizKat]

Yes, learning to drive a manual transmission in traffic on hills, that can be unnerving.

Since I have zero control over how close behind me someone else pulls up at a stop, the best thing is to leave some room in front when approaching the stop myself.

That way I can afford to gun it a little if I have to, when resuming progress, in order to keep from stalling or sliding back on a tailgater behind me. At least I won’t tap the guy in front if I haven’t been a tailgater myself.

Gotta love people blowing their horn if you happen to stall and impede their forward progress for 6 seconds... “Born blowing a horn, will die of high blood pressure next week” is what I tell myself then (with a certain amount of enthusiasm).

There was only one time when I was pretty unhappy driving a stick. I was filling in for someone’s babysitter early mornings for a week. It was suburban but there was a lot of traffic, a million lights, and a bunch of divided boulevards to cross with double the number of stop signs. I about wore out my clutch foot what with all the shifting, hardly ever got out of 2nd. The area was pancake flat, so no catching a break with some downward momentum once in awhile.

 

[mscriv]

Yes, learning to drive a manual transmission in traffic on hills, that can be unnerving.

Since I have zero control over how close behind me someone else pulls up at a stop, the best thing is to leave some room in front when approaching the stop myself.

That way I can afford to gun it a little if I have to, when resuming progress, in order to keep from stalling or sliding back on a tailgater behind me. At least I won’t tap the guy in front if I haven’t been a tailgater myself.

The other trick I used to use in situations like that was to utilize your emergency brake to hold the car in place while you got going in 1st gear. This way you won't slide backwards down the hill.

 

[yg17]

The other trick I used to use in situations like that was to utilize your emergency brake to hold the car in place while you got going in 1st gear. This way you won't slide backwards down the hill.

Yeah, that's the "proper" way. Release the handbrake as you let the clutch out, you shouldn't roll back if you time everything right.

Or buy a Subaru with hill assist

 

[Huntn]

The other trick I used to use in situations like that was to utilize your emergency brake to hold the car in place while you got going in 1st gear. This way you won't slide backwards down the hill.

But, but, that's cheating!

Yeah, that's the "proper" way. Release the handbrake as you let the clutch out, you shouldn't roll back if you time everything right.

Or buy a Subaru with hill assist

The New Fiats also have this and it is cheating!

 

[mscriv]

But, but, that's cheating!

I'll cheat any day to avoid bumping another car. Auto accidents, no matter how minor, are such a pain.

 

[LizKat]

I'm lucky any of my ol' rats have even HAD a functional emergency brake.

Better luck with newer cars, it's been a long time since I put on a brake and promptly rolled backwards. But I still park in gear.

 

[Huntn]

Vogt

I'll cheat any day to avoid bumping another car. Auto accidents, no matter how minor, are such a pain.

I should of put a smiley on that previous post.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Never driven a 2011 WRX, but Subaru must've improved it because the stock shifter on my 2015 WRX is excellent. Pretty sure any screw ups I've had (and it's only been a couple) have been my fault.

I've never driven the '15 so I can't comment, but it was well known the previous generation had sloppy shifters (i.e. loose/poor fitting bushings in the regular WRX; the STI supposedly had better ones).

And how the hell do you drive a manual without knowing how to rev match? You either have extremely jerky downshifts or have to slip the clutch way too much. Some techniques like heel-toe are advanced and not necessary for daily driving (I've never mastered it) but IMO, rev matching is as fundamental as learning to upshift or hill starts.

Well, I can only comment on the times I've ridden with him and I'd have to say it's 100% in the "jerky" territory. I think I'm gonna get car sick when I ride with him and he hasn't been the only one over the years. I think maybe there should be a few weeks in driver's ed on this or something. It should be a fundamental skill. I've noticed a few car makers have (Nissan I believe for one) have auto-rev matching downshift options now (i.e. computer does it for you). I'm 6'2" and wear size 14 shoes so I could never do the heel and toe thing properly, but then I wasn't racing anyone so I typically just moved my whole foot quickly and quickly was in common for starting out. I never even backed up on a hill before even an inch (hated the hill holder on the '11, though since it just felt weird and hills never caused me an issue ever, not even steep ones).

 

[Pelaminoskep]

The other trick I used to use in situations like that was to utilize your emergency brake to hold the car in place while you got going in 1st gear. This way you won't slide backwards down the hill.

Yes, that's how it's taught in Europe. Works like a breeze.
Although I must admit I was very happy my rental was an automatic when I visited San Fransisco. These slopes would be terrifying with a stick shift and a 2 ton car with a handbreak that feels to be made with a single cable to your back wheels.

 

[MacUser2525]

Yes, that's how it's taught in Europe. Works like a breeze.
Although I must admit I was very happy my rental was an automatic when I visited San Fransisco. These slopes would be terrifying with a stick shift and a 2 ton car with a handbreak that feels to be made with a single cable to your back wheels.

While driving stopped on the upslope of a hill it is easy enough to hold your car in place with it in first slightly letting out the clutch while having a little extra on the gas to let the car have enough power delivered to it to hold yourself there while not going forward/backward. Don't know what the people behind me think when they see no brakes engaged while I do this but it works for me and always has plus when you need to go it is simply a matter of little more on the gas while you slowly ease up more on the clutch to get moving, never have liked/caught on to the handbrake method. It helps if you do not drive like fool racing to stops where if you are slowed down enough before you get to where you need to be stopped you already are just about at the point where you do not have to do much to simply hold yourself there.

 

[yg17]

While driving stopped on the upslope of a hill it is easy enough to hold your car in place with it in first slightly letting out the clutch while having a little extra on the gas to let the car have enough power delivered to it to hold yourself there while not going forward/backward. Don't know what the people behind me think when they see no brakes engaged while I do this but it works for me and always has plus when you need to go it is simply a matter of little more on the gas while you slowly ease up more on the clutch to get moving, never have liked/caught on to the handbrake method. It helps if you do not drive like fool racing to stops where if you are slowed down enough before you get to where you need to be stopped you already are just about at the point where you do not have to do much to simply hold yourself there.

Using your clutch to hold your car on a hill is an excellent way to burn up your clutch.

 

[LizKat]

~snip~ Don't know what the people behind me think when they see no brakes engaged while I do this

All you need to know about what people think of your brakes being on or otherwise is look closely (with appropriate eye protection) at how they make brake lights these days. They're just short of looking like alien space invaders homing in on your turf. Yet people still rear-end other drivers because they don't notice guy ahead is stopped?! Insanity of it all...

I do what you do sometimes too when stopping on a hill, especially if I'm coming up to a queue and the light has already changed to green...

 

[MacUser2525]

Using your clutch to hold your car on a hill is an excellent way to burn up your clutch.

Fail to see how simple physics seems to dictate otherwise a clutch
will wear when it is slipping or in use in the movement, that is like saying using your brakes to hold yourself in position is wearing them at that time. The wear is in the use of the movement or stopping in the brakes case not in a static application of the metal on metal holding pattern with no slippage. How do think an automatic does it, it does the same thing while you have the brake engaged at a stop. That is how you can take your foot off the brake and not roll back it is engaged at all times while driving. It just varies the pressure applied to it so it is not trying to give more power to keep you moving forward when stopped in the drive gear.

 

[zhenya]

Fail to see how simple physics seems to dictate otherwise a clutch
will wear when it is slipping or in use in the movement, that is like saying using your brakes to hold yourself in position is wearing them at that time. The wear is in the use of the movement or stopping in the brakes case not in a static application of the metal on metal holding pattern with no slippage. How do think an automatic does it, it does the same thing while you have the brake engaged at a stop. That is how you can take your foot off the brake and not roll back it is engaged at all times while driving. It just varies the pressure applied to it so it is not trying to give more power to keep you moving forward when stopped in the drive gear.

An automatic typically does it through the use of a torque converter whereby the mechanical connection between the gearbox and the rotating engine is completely de-coupled through a fluid interface. The fluid allows the two to rotate without wear. With a standard transmission and a clutch, if the clutch is not fully engaged, it is slipping, which is wearing it. The entire point of the friction disc on a clutch is to allow for some slippage while you match the speed of the engine's crankshaft to the speed of the driveshaft through your chosen gear. Holding the clutch in balance while not moving as you describe is absolutely allowing the clutch to slip (wear), otherwise where is the rotating energy of the engine going?

 

[MacUser2525]

All you need to know about what people think of your brakes being on or otherwise is look closely (with appropriate eye protection) at how they make brake lights these days. They're just short of looking like alien space invaders homing in on your turf. Yet people still rear-end other drivers because they don't notice guy ahead is stopped?! Insanity of it all...

I do what you do sometimes too when stopping on a hill, especially if I'm coming up to a queue and the light has already changed to green...

Don't have to tell me I was rear ended couple of years back stopped at a stop light even, hit so hard by the woman driving that she drove me five six feet into the truck in front of me. So not only could she not see the brakes applied she completely missed the stop lights as well and was still going at in town driving speed when she hit me on a fine sunny day on road you can see for a good mile down.

 

[MacUser2525]

An automatic typically does it through the use of a torque converter whereby the mechanical connection between the gearbox and the rotating engine is completely de-coupled through a fluid interface. The fluid allows the two to rotate without wear. With a standard transmission and a clutch, if the clutch is not fully engaged, it is slipping, which is wearing it. The entire point of the friction disc on a clutch is to allow for some slippage while you match the speed of the engine's crankshaft to the speed of the driveshaft through your chosen gear. Holding the clutch in balance while not moving as you describe is absolutely allowing the clutch to slip (wear), otherwise where is the rotating energy of the engine going?

The energy goes into keeping you in place now I think about it more yes there would still be a little wear as the gear is engaged but burning through the clutch your wacked there on that statement. I have had to replace one clutch in my 35+ years of drivng this way and it was going when I bought the car. Actually now I think more again two clutch replacements not sure whether that first one was my fault or not been so long ago.

 

[yg17]

Fail to see how simple physics seems to dictate otherwise a clutch
will wear when it is slipping or in use in the movement, that is like saying using your brakes to hold yourself in position is wearing them at that time. The wear is in the use of the movement or stopping in the brakes case not in a static application of the metal on metal holding pattern with no slippage. How do think an automatic does it, it does the same thing while you have the brake engaged at a stop. That is how you can take your foot off the brake and not roll back it is engaged at all times while driving. It just varies the pressure applied to it so it is not trying to give more power to keep you moving forward when stopped in the drive gear.

Your clutch is two halves. One half is attached to the engine, spinning at around 800 RPMs, or whatever your idle speed is. The other half is attached to the transmission and not spinning at all when stopped. When you have the clutch partially engaged to hold your car on the hill, you have one half spinning against the other half that isn't. The friction and heat generated will eventually burn the clutch. You're making it even worse by adding gas.

It's like holding a disc sander against a piece of plywood. Eventually, the sandpaper will wear out, and wood will be eroded away from where you held the sander.

 

[ProjectManager101]

My first car was a shift stick. I like them better than automatic since I like to run. When you live in a complex city is better to have an small car with stick gears so you can switch when ever you want to. Automatic are better for the engine because it will not demand as much. I believe the mayor benefit is to release stress too, you hold that stick and you load your rage at it.

 

[MacUser2525]

Your clutch is two halves. One half is attached to the engine, spinning at around 800 RPMs, or whatever your idle speed is. The other half is attached to the transmission and not spinning at all when stopped. When you have the clutch partially engaged to hold your car on the hill, you have one half spinning against the other half that isn't. The friction and heat generated will eventually burn the clutch. You're making it even worse by adding gas.

It's like holding a disc sander against a piece of plywood. Eventually, the sandpaper will wear out, and wood will be eroded away from where you held the sander.

Yeah no sh$t Sherlock, three parts actually clutch, pressure plate and throw out bearing the holy trinity of manual transmission parts and should all be replaced at the same time if ever needing one of them or your an idiot doing the job. I know how this stuff works it engages the pressure plate just like an automatic does when using a torque converter transferring the power of the engine to the transmission now since it is engaged there will be wear the same as any other time it is engaged there is no special extra wear by doing it wearing is wearing when engaged. So instead of that (pulling numbers out of my a$$) 100k expected life you will get 90+k lifetime assuming 10% hill driving wear due to this behaviour. Since I may have about if extremely unlucky 1% hill driving in my normal driving routine I will live with that little loss on the lifetime of my clutch...

 

[LizKat]

Yah I'm not going to ride the clutch to stay stopped if I actually have to stop. But if I'm coming up on the end of a line of cars resuming progress up a hill when the light changes, I'll shift down and down again and get to just short of stalling in first, in preference to full stop and disengaging. I've never replaced a clutch on a car yet and I've had a couple go over 200k miles, so I'm not gonna quit playing that game now. I hasten to say it's not something I do when the car is new to me because I don't know it well enough then, they're all a little different in what they tolerate in a low gear before you really have to disengage.

 

[birnando]

While driving stopped on the upslope of a hill it is easy enough to hold your car in place with it in first slightly letting out the clutch while having a little extra on the gas to let the car have enough power delivered to it to hold yourself there while not going forward/backward. Don't know what the people behind me think when they see no brakes engaged while I do this but it works for me and always has plus when you need to go it is simply a matter of little more on the gas while you slowly ease up more on the clutch to get moving, never have liked/caught on to the handbrake method. It helps if you do not drive like fool racing to stops where if you are slowed down enough before you get to where you need to be stopped you already are just about at the point where you do not have to do much to simply hold yourself there.

A much better way is to learn how to operate all three pedals when doing hill starts. Or just be quick about releasing the clutch while giving the engine a few more revs as you ease upwards. No need for parking brake when used properly, and you don't wear out your clutch.

 

[LizKat]

Well then there's always blasting a tunnel through the hill parts and be done with it! I have sometimes longed for that when driving upstate on Route 206. I don't know who has the nerve to plow that thing in winter up in Chenango County. You have to hope the plows never have to stop unexpectedly on a few of those hills, I don't know where they'd end up!

 

[Bug-Creator]

e noticed a few car makers have (Nissan I believe for one) have auto-rev matching downshift options now (i.e. computer does it for you)

My new Mini has that too and at first I was slightly confused by what that fricking engine was doing

"Hill assist" also seems pretty standard these days....

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

As others have said, feathering the clutch to stay in place on a hill or small incline will shorten the life of your clutch to some degree. I would say it's more like instead of getting 200k miles, you'll get maybe 80-100k miles. I sold my ProbeGT at 140k miles many years ago and it was still on its original clutch with zero slip. I've seen people burn clutches out at 40k miles. It really depends on the skill of the driver and if they have bad habits (e.g. My uncle rides the clutch all the time and he still got 130k miles on his clutch, but he probably would have gotten over 200k if he didn't ride it as his other skills are very good). The other issue is that your brake lights aren't on so someone may not notice you're stopped, increasingly the likelihood of you getting rear-ended. Besides, I personally think it makes the person look like they're chomping at the bit to take off as fast as possible and that always comes off bad, IMO.

I'm not sure why people find it hard to start on hills with regular braking. The trick is to simply move your foot to the gas pedal quickly and let the clutch out at the grab point. The key is to do it quickly. I've NEVER backed up more than maybe a quarter inch even on big hills the past 22 years (usually none at all) and I have never stalled on a hill. Give it some gas and let the clutch out faster than normal, but smoothly and it doesn't have time to back up. I think some people must granny their foot to the gas. It shouldn't take more than a quarter of a second to step on the gas pedal from the brake pedal and with no tricks putting feet over multiple pedals, etc. But then one guy I knew was so confident with regular shifting that he would shift without his clutch rev-matching to show off all the time, but he was terrified at hills and used his emergency brake to hold his car. Ridiculous. I guess good rev-matching timing and knowing how to quickly take off to avoid rollback are two different things.