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Can't get used to the shallow keyboard, what should I do?

skids929 said:
Rationalize much? Would you offer an opinion on an EL 34 without having listening to it in a given implementation? I am not questioning your legitimacy as a person, trust me I could care less. Questioning the legitimacy of your opinion on something you have no experience with, yes. Members on a forum dedicated to Apple products want to hear from folks who have real life experience with the products, from real users. Not someone who popped into a Apple Store and typed for 10 minutes on it and made a sweeping decision that the keyboard was awful, came up with one of the worst explanations as to why Apple changed it and then took the spare time to post on an Apple forum, in a thread dedicated to a computer you don't own.

These aren't mattresses, these a complex, very expensive items that require someone to sit and use them before them come to a snap judgement, then take time to post it on this forum so some newbie can take it as fact. The argument becomes what value you are adding in a place where people rely on that. Really you need to focus on the legitimacy of the argument, and what you bring as far as opinion and why. You've been questioned and the legitimacy is clear, which is it's not legit.
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Stop moving the goal post.

You have very strongly implied based on your "Exactly..Thats what I thought. So why bother commenting on something you don't own. Rhetorical question..." comment that what I said cannot be legitimate.

Are you now backtracking and do you no longer believe in what you have previously said?
 
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skids929 said:
Rationalize much? Would you offer an opinion on an EL 34 without having listening to it in a given implementation? I am not questioning your legitimacy as a person, trust me I could care less. Questioning the legitimacy of your opinion on something you have no experience with, yes. Members on a forum dedicated to Apple products want to hear from folks who have real life experience with the products, from real users. Not someone who popped into a Apple Store and typed for 10 minutes on it and made a sweeping decision that the keyboard was awful, came up with one of the worst explanations as to why Apple changed it and then took the spare time to post on an Apple forum, in a thread dedicated to a computer you don't own.

These aren't mattresses, these a complex, very expensive items that require someone to sit and use them before them come to a snap judgement, then take time to post it on this forum so some newbie can take it as fact. The argument becomes what value you are adding in a place where people rely on that. Really you need to focus on the legitimacy of the argument, and what you bring as far as opinion and why. You've been questioned and the legitimacy is clear, which is it's not legit.
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I'd listen to them, rather than to you, because you appear to think that argumentum ad hominem is a valid argument, and also because you apparently thought that their obvious joke about the reason for the keyboard was a serious argument as to why the keyboard is the way it is. So you failed at both logic and reading comprehension, completely.
 
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therealseebs said:
I'd listen to them, rather than to you, because you appear to think that argumentum ad hominem is a valid argument, and also because you apparently thought that their obvious joke about the reason for the keyboard was a serious argument as to why the keyboard is the way it is. So you failed at both logic and reading comprehension, completely.
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Oh no I got the attempt at humor, and quite honestly thats not what I was addressing at all (insert reading comprehension retort here)..But he wasn't joking about his dislike for the keyboard so let's not try and back out of it. I addressed what I think is a worthless opinion based on the fact he/she doesn't own the machine and has no user experience with it, which anyone buying this machine should have before they negativley post on a forum that's purpose is to benefit others. Nothing academic about that.

If I missed something feel free to explain since you seem to have such a firm grip on what he meant. Not that I care at this point, they keyboard is a great design.
 
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Perhaps as a person who doesn't type all day, everyday on their laptop, I'm not in a position to comment, but my advice to the OP would be to get something else - this keyboard isn't working for you. The 2015 rMPB is still a great computer or if not that, then Windows. I personally can't see an external keyboard as a good option for a laptop.

For the record I've had my 15" 2016 base model for a month and I love the new keyboard.
 
skids929 said:
Oh no I got the attempt at humor, and quite honestly thats not what I was addressing at all (insert reading comprehension retort here)..But he wasn't joking about his dislike for the keyboard so let's not try and back out of it. I addressed what I think is a worthless opinion based on the fact he/she doesn't own the machine and has no user experience with it, which anyone buying this machine should have before they negativley post on a forum that's purpose is to benefit others. Nothing academic about that.

If I missed something feel free to explain since you seem to have such a firm grip on what he meant. Not that I care at this point, they keyboard is a great design.
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And what makes you think I have "no user experience" with it?

Maybe you should have asked.

What you have made is a baseless assumption.

My job, besides being a full time University student, is to repair Macs.
 
tubeexperience said:
And what makes you think I have "no user experience" with it?

Maybe you should have asked.

What you have made is a baseless assumption.

My job, besides being a full time University student, is to repair Macs.
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Haha! what a convenient explanation. Maybe YOU should have mentioned that earlier! Initially I asked a simple question you replied with some cryptic twisted logic answer to avoid the fact you made a baseless judgement of something you have little to no experience with because you don't own one. Now all of sudden you repair them..I mean the inevitable question would be how many of these 2016 models have you actually repaired since they've been out for 45 days and are still covered under Apple warranty.

Needless to say you could have just said it's not for me, instead of it's a bad design. Because a lot of folks here find it to be a good design and enjoy it-people who own and use it daily. Not repair older Macs..

So let's start again, you said it's a bad design..Since you fix these and I assume tear them down and know a lot more about the tech specs than I do. What makes it a bad design? My experience is it's faster, quieter, more accurate. After an initial adjustment period (maybe 3-4 days) and an open mind I learned to let my hands crawl gently over the keyboard and hover and it makes the typing experience much easier, and effortless on the hands. Not sure whats bad about that, maybe I am missing something. Enlighten me, I am sure you know more about it since you fix them.
 
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skids929 said:
Haha! what a convenient explanation.
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How strange? It's not like I've previously mentioned on MR that I repair Macs.... And iPhones.... And iPads... And non-Apple electronics...

Oh, wait. I did.

skids929 said:
Maybe YOU should have mentioned that earlier!
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You didn't ask so I didn't respond.

skids929 said:
Initially I asked a simple question you replied with some cryptic twisted logic answer to avoid the fact you made a baseless judgement of something you have little to no experience with because you don't own one.
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You have never asked me about what experience I've had with the 2016 MacBook Pro.

Rather, you asked if I own one and make a baseless conclusion that I need to own one for what I said to be legitimate.

skids929 said:
Now all of sudden you repair them..
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Which I have previously mentioned on MR...

skids929 said:
I mean the inevitable question would be how many of these 2016 models have you actually repaired since they've been out for 45 days and are still covered under Apple warranty.
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I had to repair a dented corner. What does that have to do with the warranty?

skids929 said:
Needless to say you could have just said it's not for me, instead of it's a bad design. Because a lot of folks here find it to be a good design and enjoy it-people who own and use it daily. Not repair older Macs..
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It is a poor design. The reason that we haven't all replaced keyboards on our laptops with touchscreens isn't because of technological reason: it's because we want the feeling of pressing the keys. In that regard, the new MacBook Pro fairs poorly.

skids929 said:
So let's start again, you said it's a bad design..Since you fix these and I assume tear them down and know a lot more about the tech specs than I do. What makes it a bad design? My experience is it's faster, quieter, more accurate. After an initial adjustment period (maybe 3-4 days) and an open mind I learned to let my hands crawl gently over the keyboard and hover and it makes the typing experience much easier, and effortless on the hands. Not sure whats bad about that, maybe I am missing something. Enlighten me, I am sure you know more about it since you fix them.
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Well, I will tell you why... and it has nothing to do with anything I've learned from my repairs.

There's isn't much key travel in the new keyboard and having sufficient key travel is important to not just me, but many others.

If it wasn't, we would be using laptops that look like this:

lenovo-yoga-book-04.jpg
 
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Loved it after 20 mins of use, much quicker to type on and feels like a mechanical keyboard. But, everyone is different so if it's not for you maybe try out the previous model like others have suggested.
 
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I'm a mechanical keyboard fanatic and I thought the lack of travel in the new MBP keyboard would drive me crazy. It did for all of one hour. I got used to it quickly and I actually quite like this style of keyboard now. It wasn't hard for me to adapt because I've already developed a very light touch to my typing because of chronic hand pain. On my mechanical keyboards, I'm able to feel the actuation bumps while typing at near full speed so I don't bottom out on the keyboard. I've similarly been able to not pound these flat keys very hard (even though it's impossible to avoid bottoming out).
 
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smirking said:
I'm a mechanical keyboard fanatic and I thought the lack of travel in the new MBP keyboard would drive me crazy. It did for all of one hour. I got used to it quickly and I actually quite like this style of keyboard now. It wasn't hard for me to adapt because I've already developed a very light touch to my typing because of chronic hand pain. On my mechanical keyboards, I'm able to feel the actuation bumps while typing at near full speed so I don't bottom out on the keyboard. I've similarly been able to not pound these flat keys very hard (even though it's impossible to avoid bottoming out).
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I tried, it is impossible to not bottom these keys out. But mechanical keyboards are a different league and will always be. There's a reason they are still available and made.
 
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macintoshmac said:
I tried, it is impossible to not bottom these keys out. But mechanical keyboards are a different league and will always be. There's a reason they are still available and made.
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Indeed. You will bottom out, but there's a difference between bottoming out hard and just glancing off of the surface. I'm able to do the latter (most of the time). I was already pretty proficient at not striking the old style Apple Bluetooth keyboard too hard so it wasn't that big of an adjustment. Some time ago, I realized that I had pretty good luck at typing on one of those Apple Bluetooth chiclet keyboards without hand pain so I used one of those when I wasn't using one of my low force mechanicals.

I assume that you've got a mechanical or two yourself? What's your normal daily driver?
 
What's the difference between a "mechanical" keyboard and the new MBP keyboards? I mean, none of them are virtual keyboards like an iPad's, so by definition, they're all "mechanical"...
 
BarracksSi said:
I mean, none of them are virtual keyboards like an iPad's, so by definition, they're all "mechanical"...
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That's technically correct, but among the keyboard enthusiast crowd, the word "mechanical" refers to the switch underneath the key.

This is broadly generalizing, but your non-virtual keyboards can be split up into two categories:

Mechanical key switches activated where the switch works in a traditional plunger style of action
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_technology#/media/File:Cherry_MX_--_opened,_2.jpg

Or by some rubber membrane or dome switch where the switch is activated by a membrane collapsing with pressure
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_technology#/media/File:Keyboard_Construction_Button_Press.JPG

There's plenty of grey area and you can find people on keyboard enthusiast sites who will spend 25 hours a day arguing whether something is mechanical or not, but among the keyboard enthusiast crowd, the word mechanical usually refers to the first example above. The MBP uses a scissor switch, which is a rubber dome that is supported by a scissoring scaffold to give it a more mechanical feel. Rubber domed keyboards normally feel mushy.

Basically any keyboard that was packaged with a desktop computer in the past 15 years would have been a rubber domed keyboard (no mechanical switches).
 
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So are people still having fun with their Smith-Corona typewriters like the one I used to do my school papers on?
 
smirking said:
I assume that you've got a mechanical or two yourself? What's your normal daily driver?
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Used to have a Cherry MX Blue equipped keyboard. Loved every moment of it. Till I got into the USB equipped Hackintosh world and got myself a proper Apple keyboard in 2006. Then the real Macintosh world with MBP Late 2011. Presently driving the 2016 MBP only. Love it. Previous one was good, this is a nice evolution.

I still intend to get myself the USB version of that mechanical keyboard for extended, longer typing sessions.
 
macintoshmac said:
I still intend to get myself the USB version of that mechanical keyboard for extended, longer typing sessions.
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Which one are you referring to? The "Apple keyboard" you got in 2006? Which one is that? I only have one Cherry MX Blue board and it doesn't work right. I love clicky, but the "pingyness" of the blues always annoyed me. I cut my teeth as a teenager on the likes of the original IBM Model Ms. I have four of those in the closet.

As much as I like them, I can't do clicky anymore. They hurt my hands too much. There aren't any clicky keyboards that are low force enough for me. I can type only on MX Reds and similarly low force switches. My main driver right now is a Matias Ergo Pro with 35g reproduction ALPS switches.
 
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smirking said:
Which one are you referring to? The "Apple keyboard" you got in 2006? Which one is that? I only have one Cherry MX Blue board and it doesn't work right. I love clicky, but the "pingyness" of the blues always annoyed me. I cut my teeth as a teenager on the likes of the original IBM Model Ms. I have four of those in the closet.

As much as I like them, I can't do clicky anymore. They hurt my hands too much. There aren't any clicky keyboards that are low force enough for me. I can type only on MX Reds and similarly low force switches. My main driver right now is a Matias Ergo Pro with 35g reproduction ALPS switches.
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Blue Alps are probably the best clicky keyboard switch, as they aren't too heavy and the tactility is elongated and smooth (like a hump). They are fairly rare and quite expensive, though. "Clicky" Space Invaders are also quite light, though they offer next to nothing for tactility (but the click sound is pleasant).

Topre is where it's at, though. Everyone starts with clicky switches because of the appeal of that retro/mechanical sound... but for many people, that appeal fades.

Topre is expensive but very easy to live with long-term. Tactile, smooth, and pleasant sounding (doesn't draw attention in the office!). :cool: Hard to beat a Realforce 87U.

I'm not crazy about the new MBP keyboard, mostly because all the ones I've tried had really loud/rattly spacebars that sounded like they were broken, and I like to have some key travel. It's a compromise, though, I understand.
 
Altis said:
Topre is where it's at, though. Everyone starts with clicky switches because of the appeal of that retro/mechanical sound... but for many people, that appeal fades.
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You're trying to start a keyboard fight aren't ya? :rolleyes:

I do like the silky feel of the Topre. I have a Realforce too. I keep trying to go back to it every year or so, but I can't. It too hurts my hands... probably because the domes have stiffened just enough over time and it's hard not to bottom out on a Topre switch.

Hmmm... you just made me want to break out my Realforce to see if I have better luck with it now. I haven't touched it in almost 2 years. If my wife gets mad about me hurting my hands again, I'll tell her it's your fault... wasn't my idea honey!
 
smirking said:
You're trying to start a keyboard fight aren't ya? :rolleyes:

I do like the silky feel of the Topre. I have a Realforce too. I keep trying to go back to it every year or so, but I can't. It too hurts my hands... probably because the domes have stiffened just enough over time and it's hard not to bottom out on a Topre switch.

Hmmm... you just made me want to break out my Realforce to see if I have better luck with it now. I haven't touched it in almost 2 years. If my wife gets mad about me hurting my hands again, I'll tell her it's your fault... wasn't my idea honey!
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I'm pretty much the keyboard equivalent of a doomsday prepper :cool:

What weight is your Realforce? I find the 55g everyone raves about to be too heavy. Tires out my fingers. I want to try the variable weight (35/45) at some point.

If bottoming-out hurts your fingers, you might really like stock MX Clears. That's pretty much what they're made for since the force increases substantially as you pass the contact point. You can type normally/quickly on them without bottoming out.
 
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