Can't get used to the shallow keyboard, what should I do?

[smirking]

What weight is your Realforce? I find the 55g everyone raves about to be too heavy. Tires out my fingers. I want to try the variable weight (35/45) at some point.

I can't remember what mine is at. It's variable. I believe it's the 45g/55g one with most keys weighted at 45g and certain keys like the ESC at 55g.

It's not just bottoming out that I have issues with. It's the overall force of the keypress so the MX Clears are a no go. I can go full speed on MX Browns without bottoming out most of the time, but even MX Browns are too heavy for me. It's only a 5-10g step down to the reds, but it makes a big difference to me.

 

[rutrack]

I hate the new keyboard, I tried it many times now, really tried to see if maybe there is something magical I'm missing, but no, I just really hate it, just like the cherry black switches, but I really like the green switches on my code keyboard.

 

[Altis]

I can't remember what mine is at. It's variable. I believe it's the 45g/55g one with most keys weighted at 45g and certain keys like the ESC at 55g.

It's not just bottoming out that I have issues with. It's the overall force of the keypress so the MX Clears are a no go. I can go full speed on MX Browns without bottoming out most of the time, but even MX Browns are too heavy for me. It's only a 5-10g step down to the reds, but it makes a big difference to me.

The Realforce variables are 35g/45g for all keys but 55g Esc key.

MX Brown and Reds are both around 45g (same springs). Gateron makes some linear MX switches with 35g that might be to your liking. Smoother/less gritty than Cherry MX.

 

[smirking]

The Realforce variables are 35g/45g for all keys but 55g Esc key.

That sounds about right. Don't they also make an all 35g board too? I'd love to get my hands on one of those if they do.

MX Brown and Reds are both around 45g (same springs).

True, but look at the force actuation graph for browns vs reds. There is a spike in pressure before you hit the actuation point. I guess that's the tactile bump.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/mechanical-keyboard-guide

That spike makes a difference to my hands and I very much feel the extra resistance, but it could be because my MX Brown board is my oldest keyboard and the switches have stiffened a little.

 

[Altis]

That sounds about right. Don't they also make an all 35g board too? I'd love to get my hands on one of those if they do.


True, but look at the force actuation graph for browns vs reds. There is a spike in pressure before you hit the actuation point. I guess that's the tactile bump.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/mechanical-keyboard-guide

That spike makes a difference to my hands and I very much feel the extra resistance, but it could be because my MX Brown board is my oldest keyboard and the switches have stiffened a little.

There exists 35g Realforce, but they seem to be very rare. I, too, would really like to give it a try.

Yeah tactility adds a bit of weight during the notch/hump. I'd imagine more of a problem in your case is that the force buildup to overcome the tactility means it's more prone to bottoming-out afterwards.

I have Gateron Browns in my WhiteFox and they're quite light... I'd say lighter than the MX Browns in my older Das Keyboard 3.

 

[smirking]

Yeah tactility adds a bit of weight during the notch/hump. I'd imagine more of a problem in your case is that the force buildup to overcome the tactility means it's more prone to bottoming-out afterwards.

For really heavy switches like a buckling spring, I'd say that's true for me, but for something relatively light like MX Browns, they actually make it less likely I'll bottom out because I can feel the bump and stop pressing the key immediately. It's trickier to do this without the bump as there's nothing to let you know you've hit the actuation point.

 

[BarracksSi]

I feel SO NORMAL right now.

 

[smirking]

I feel SO NORMAL right now.

Don't worry. It'll pass soon.

 

[BarracksSi]

Don't worry. It'll pass soon.

So that's what it was that I "passed" a little while ago…

 

[macintoshmac]

Which one are you referring to? The "Apple keyboard" you got in 2006? Which one is that? I only have one Cherry MX Blue board and it doesn't work right. I love clicky, but the "pingyness" of the blues always annoyed me. I cut my teeth as a teenager on the likes of the original IBM Model Ms. I have four of those in the closet.

As much as I like them, I can't do clicky anymore. They hurt my hands too much. There aren't any clicky keyboards that are low force enough for me. I can type only on MX Reds and similarly low force switches. My main driver right now is a Matias Ergo Pro with 35g reproduction ALPS switches.

The only Apple keyboard (and the mouse) I owned before getting the MacBook Pro is this one: https://www.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://www.imagine41.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/p/apple_usb_keyboard_and_mouse_004.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.imagine41.com/index.php/apple-usb-keyboard-a1048-and-apple-usb-mouse-a1152.html&docid=OMhc7OizHmST8M&tbnid=jvNxQrXKREkPMM:&vet=1&w=2304&h=1536&client=safari&bih=739&biw=1264&q=apple usb keyboard&ved=0ahUKEwjljoW66ITSAhVHOY8KHZ-3AAwQMwgdKAMwAw&iact=mrc&uact=8#h=1536&imgrc=jvNxQrXKREkPMM:&vet=1&w=2304

That was a membrane based keyboard.

I personally love the Cherry MX Blue. The soft click that isn't too loud, and the key press was soft enough. This is the keyboard I am referring to:

http://teja3.kuikr.com/i4/20161221/tvs-keyboard-ak_LWBP105230469-1482337691.jpeg

https://i.sdlcdn.com/img/product/descimg/SDL435363656.jpg

https://imgur.com/JiHKmSd

 

[werpu]

Once it craps out I'm going to get a Lenovo X1 Carbon.
I tried the keyboard on one the other day and it was literally like a night and day.
Even ran circles around the MacBook Air keyboard which I'm very used to.
AND in the Thinkpad series that's not a particularly good keyboard....lol
For a really super good one look at the T-460 and the T-460S.

Welcome to the world of shoddy trackpads. I have used Thinpads for many years and maybe the situation now is better but at the time I used them they had literally the worst trackpads you can think of and with every revision the seemed to become worse. One of those thinkpads had the trackpad placed so much on the left hand side that it literally drove me crazy as a right hander.
[doublepost=1486710341][/doublepost]

I personally love the Cherry MX Blue. The soft click that isn't too loud, and the key press was soft enough. This is the keyboard I am referring to:

I use a cherry MX brown based keyboard. I am very sensitive to keyboards thanks to an RSI I have developed over the years. Well it is a love affair but you have to adapt to the keyboard. Trick is not to hammer it to hard, the Cherry basically triggers after 1-2 milimetrs of keypress although you have a hub of 0.8mms - 1 cm. The downside is, it is relatively loud, I am not really sensitive in this area however.

So for me keyboard noise is a non issue, also that some keys might sound a little bit differently (see the other thread where people complain about this and send back their macs because of it, sheesh)

So for my RSI it is a good keyboard because I am very sensitive to hard hammering. But people who complain about the noise of the new Apple keyboard probably should stay away from it. I have yet to encounter the new apple keyboard, but I guess since it is semi mechanical it will not be to different, aka do not hammer it, touch it swiftly because the keys trigger anyway.

Either way since I use the cherry based one, I am not to eager to use my integrated Apple keyboard on my 2012 retina mac anymore, it feels so bad compared to it (and somewhat hard to type on)

Btw. one tip, if you are senistive to RSI give the Kinetic Keyboards a shot, they are supposingly to be the best ergonomic keyboards, they also use Cherry Brown. If you really are a pro who does a lot of typing (like I am) then a good keyboard is a must and you should start early with it. It might prevent RSI.

 

[macintoshmac]

If you really are a pro who does a lot of typing (like I am) then a good keyboard is a must and you should start early with it. It might prevent RSI.

Well said. Whatever that we use heavily, must be the best possible in quality, ergonomics and bodily comfort for it and us to last long without damage.

 

[smirking]

Btw. one tip, if you are senistive to RSI give the Kinetic Keyboards a shot, they are supposingly to be the best ergonomic keyboards, they also use Cherry Brown.

I think you meant to say Kinesis keyboards. They indeed make some pretty nice keyboards. You're probably thinking of the bowl shaped Kinesis Advantage. It's not for everyone though.

I have RSI too and both the Kinesis Advantage and the Freestyle were terrible for me. Other people swear by those models (which was why I bought them), but they didn't work for me. They helped a bit at first, but not because they were more comfortable to type on. I found them so awkward to use that I typed a lot slower. Once I got used to them, they were worse for my hands than a standard keyboard.

This isn't to scare people away from Kinesis Boards. They are terrific boards. I'm just saying this to caution anyone from coming to the conclusion that "ERGONOMIC" equals GOOD. Nothing is undisputably ergonomic. What's ergonomic for me might not be for you. There's no shortcut to a magic board that works for everyone. You've really got to do your homework and try a lot of different options to come up with the best solutions for yourself.

 

[werpu]

Yes you are right, if you have RSI it really depends on what you are sensitive against. For me using flat keyboards chicklet style helped a lot. Basically I can use every keyboard which you do not have to hammer to hard. The best bet is simply to try out which keyboard fits you best.

 

[macintoshmac]

What's ergonomic for me might not be for you.

True. Ergonomics are subjective, in the subtlest of ways. Ergonomic does not equal "absolutely good for me". Well said!

 

[Altis]

I think you meant to say Kinesis keyboards. They indeed make some pretty nice keyboards. You're probably thinking of the bowl shaped Kinesis Advantage. It's not for everyone though.

I have RSI too and both the Kinesis Advantage and the Freestyle were terrible for me. Other people swear by those models (which was why I bought them), but they didn't work for me. They helped a bit at first, but not because they were more comfortable to type on. I found them so awkward to use that I typed a lot slower. Once I got used to them, they were worse for my hands than a standard keyboard.

This isn't to scare people away from Kinesis Boards. They are terrific boards. I'm just saying this to caution anyone from coming to the conclusion that "ERGONOMIC" equals GOOD. Nothing is undisputably ergonomic. What's ergonomic for me might not be for you. There's no shortcut to a magic board that works for everyone. You've really got to do your homework and try a lot of different options to come up with the best solutions for yourself.

There's also the Ergodox as an option.

One of the difficulties of keyboard ergonomics is wrist angle. It helps to have the keyboard further forward and lower down (such as on your knees) so your wrists are straight.

Else, having a split keyboard (or even two keyboards) can help.

 

[jerryk]

For really heavy switches like a buckling spring, I'd say that's true for me, but for something relatively light like MX Browns, they actually make it less likely I'll bottom out because I can feel the bump and stop pressing the key immediately. It's trickier to do this without the bump as there's nothing to let you know you've hit the actuation point.

You described exactly why I use MX Browns. And once your get used to their feel it is hard to use other keyboards that do not have the travel and lower level of clickiness.

For me, most of my day is spent writing or coding, with some voice recording and video editing. So the keyboard is the most important interface to the computer. Nice graphics displays are important when I have videos to edit, but the keyboard is the most important.

 

[smirking]

There's also the Ergodox as an option.

The Ergodox would have to be my favorite keyboard! Do you have one of those too?

My only issue with it is that it's a bit hard on your thumbs because you're constantly using it to push modifier keys. That and once you get habituated to an Ergodox, it's hard to type on a staggered layout keyboard because you keep pressing in between the keys you actually want to hit. It gets embarassing when you have client meetings and you're using a standard keyboard and you look like a professional that isn't able to type.

One of the difficulties of keyboard ergonomics is wrist angle. It helps to have the keyboard further forward and lower down (such as on your knees) so your wrists are straight.

For me, it's actually a matter of shoulder angle more than wrist angle. After many years of trying everything possible, I've finally realized that much of my RSI is originating from my shoulder and neck area. I now use a forearm rest and that combined with a Matias Ergo Pro has been a solid solution for me for about a year now.

Here's the forearm rest I use.



I think the forearm rest just helps with posture more than anything else. You'd think that having a chair with highly adjustable arm rests would be just as good, but at least in my case it's not. My chair collection is also as impressive as my keyboard collection so I've tried a lot of different makes, models, and styles of chairs.

Else, having a split keyboard (or even two keyboards) can help.

I haven't been a fan of split keyboards until recently or rather, the ones that they were making prior to the past few years didn't do much for me, but we've seen a bunch of imaginative and interesting split keys come out lately.

 

[jerryk]

My chair collection is also as impressive as my keyboard collection so I've tried a lot of different makes, models, and styles of chairs.

Any chair recommendations for people that sit at their desk and code all day? I would like to stay under $1500.

 

[smirking]

For me, most of my day is spent writing or coding, with some voice recording and video editing. So the keyboard is the most important interface to the computer.

I would add a mouse into that mix. I usually use a "gaming mouse" with a lot of buttons so I can map the keys I use the most to the mouse and I don't have to take my hand off the mouse to press those keys. Just having a return and backspace key mapped to your mouse hand is a huge productivity boost.

 

[Sanpete]

I would add a mouse into that mix. I usually use a "gaming mouse" with a lot of buttons so I can map the keys I use the most to the mouse and I don't have to take my hand off the mouse to press those keys. Just having a return and backspace key mapped to your mouse hand is a huge productivity boost.

I stopped using mice after they bothered my wrist. A Wacom tablet was a great substitute. No trouble with keyboards, though. Very individual what bothers whom, as noted above.

 

[jerryk]

I would add a mouse into that mix. I usually use a "gaming mouse" with a lot of buttons so I can map the keys I use the most to the mouse and I don't have to take my hand off the mouse to press those keys. Just having a return and backspace key mapped to your mouse hand is a huge productivity boost.

Interesting idea. I don't use the mouse much when working. I have most of the key sequences memorized, and use page down/up and the arrow keys to move around in editors.

 

[smirking]

Any chair recommendations for people that sit at their desk and code all day? I would like to stay under $1500.

Wooo, chairs are much harder to recommend than keyboards and they come in more drastic variations. It's true that everyone's body and mechanics is different when it comes to keyboards, but it's even more so for chairs plus your keyboard mechanics also affect the kind of chair that'll work well for you.

There's only one chair above $1500 that I like. All the others are below $1000, especially if you know where to shop and by that I mean, if you know where to find the right warehouse storefront that sells to small and medium companies.

Do you have any chairs that you've been looking at or considering?

You probably know the standard ergonomic sitting advice of having your elbows at your sides, posture upright, roughly 90 degree bend in your elbows. That's just a good place to start. Start there, but listen to your body if it isn't working for you. Once you have a good idea what your most comfortable position is, go out and test chairs like crazy. If you walk by a mall and you see a chair, go sit in it. Even if it's a crappy $100 office store chair. You might learn something about what you do and don't want.

10 years ago, I'd never buy a chair from an office store, but lately I've been seeing some very respectable models show up in the likes of Staples. Some models they sell at office stores are just lower end models of a professional product you can find elsewhere. My current chair is a Eurotech iOO, which I discovered by way of a somewhat lower end version at Staples.

Once you have an idea of the kind of chair that is best for you, go sit in it for a good long time. When I'm chair hunting, I take my work with me and I'll spend up to an hour in a chair to make sure it's right. There's no other way besides dumb luck to find the right chair for you.

Also, if you have a hard time finding an ideal chair, get one that you can "dress up" in different ways to keep you comfortable. If you like the way a chair supports your back, but it's too hard on your butt on some days, but the cushier ones make your neck hurt, then get a gel or memory foam seat cushion that you can add and subtract to the butt killing chair. If a high back is great, but gets in the way, find a chair that will allow you to strap a neck or upper back cushion/support to it.

If you sit enough, you probably won't find a single ideal chair so you'll either need to own a fleet of chairs or find something that's adaptable and then get creative in how you use it.

 

[jerryk]

Do you have any chairs that you've been looking at or considering?

I have 3 I focused on from doing web searches. They are the HM Aeron and Embody, and Steelcase Leep.

I have used the Aeron several times and liked them, but the mesh can dig if you are wearing shorts in the summer. Also, there seem to be a lot of knockoffs that are flooding the market. Still it is/was the SV standard for a good reason.

I am going to go to an office store and try the Embody and Leep. Anything else I should try?

 

[smirking]

If you like the Aerons, you may also want to check out the chair I mentioned, a Eurotech iOO or an Ergohuman, but you can't find them in stores. The closest thing you can get to it is if you find a Staples store that has Raynor chairs or an office supply depot that just happened to have some.

Besides the mesh being hard on your skin, the thing that led me to sell my Aeron was how hard and unforgiving the seat frame was. You don't always hit the mesh parts when you're sitting and sitting against blast proof plastic gets irritating.

If you're in the South Bay, drop by Tom's Discount Office Furniture in Santa Clara. They often have overstock items and sometimes will have fully loaded Aerons for a lot less than retail. Last time I was there, they had HM Mirra 1's for around $400. That's another alternative if you like the Aeron.

I tend to favor mesh chairs and ones with minimal padding because padding always wears out and becomes a very different chair once it does. If I need more padding, I add my own.

Leap's are nice chairs. I've never owned one of those, but it was one of the ones I did a long sit test in. They're just basically a super solid uber adjustable industrial strength office chair.