By the way, need to clarify something. The prior MacBook Air i has was an Intel one. It also was running on Monterey, and again, SuperDuper! worked fine, making a bootable clone (actually 2 of them) to an external SSD.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Carbon copy cloner
- Thread starter macguru9999
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
but can you boot from it ? or does it hang ? if it does not hang then what cloning software are you using ? what hardware are you trying to boot? I am testing with a 2017 and 2019 imacs, for example. And I cannot get my imacs to boot from the external clones plugged into either fw3 or usb3.1. They hang about halfway and eventually restart back off the internal drive (successfully). In fact I cannot get the second imac to boot from the first even tho it has a working copy of ventura and its in target mode as an external to the other imac !
^^^^I have responded to you many many times before - This is the LAST time:
I'm on a NcMP 7,1 with ten drives inside the mac. One is the OEM drive that I don't use. Three are 2.5" SSDs in an HD/SSD enclosure that the mac identifies as internal. I have six Samsung M.2 SSDs mounted on two PCIe expansion cards. Two of the drives are 970 Pros, three are 970 Evos and one is an old AHCI. The ones on the on cards are identified as external.
Four of my NVME drives are bootable. Two contain Monterey and a backup and two contain Ventura and a backup. ALL have been cloned at one time or another. All drives with OSs are bootable. As posted earlier I used SD for awhile and when I became unhappy when the support I switched to CCC. I have used CCC for more than a year now. Their updates come quite often and their support is quit good.
AGAIN - I have made bootable copies of disks using CCC in both Monterey and Ventura by following the steps outlined in the thread I linked on page one of this thread. IT WORKS‼️
Lou
I'm on a NcMP 7,1 with ten drives inside the mac. One is the OEM drive that I don't use. Three are 2.5" SSDs in an HD/SSD enclosure that the mac identifies as internal. I have six Samsung M.2 SSDs mounted on two PCIe expansion cards. Two of the drives are 970 Pros, three are 970 Evos and one is an old AHCI. The ones on the on cards are identified as external.
Four of my NVME drives are bootable. Two contain Monterey and a backup and two contain Ventura and a backup. ALL have been cloned at one time or another. All drives with OSs are bootable. As posted earlier I used SD for awhile and when I became unhappy when the support I switched to CCC. I have used CCC for more than a year now. Their updates come quite often and their support is quit good.
AGAIN - I have made bootable copies of disks using CCC in both Monterey and Ventura by following the steps outlined in the thread I linked on page one of this thread. IT WORKS‼️
Lou
This link seems to be very good regarding the clean installation of Ventura:
Clean Install macOS Ventura: A Comprehensive Tutorial
This article will tell you how to clean install macOS Ventura from a bootable USB. Remember to backup your data before installing macOS Ventura on Mac.iboysoft.com
That article has some errors and misconceptions:
1. Since the introduction of the Signed Sealed System Volume (SSV) there is no need or point in erasing to do a clean install. All data, settings, apps and all "cruft" is on the -Data volume. This is why the instructions by Apple for preparing a mac for sale or returning to factory conditions are simply to use the new "Erase all Content and Settings" (reference), which erases the -Data volume ready for the new owner to start from scratch. This is all you have to do if you want to do what an erase and reinstall did in the earlier OSes.
The SSV is extremely strictly verified that it is totally unmodified every boot (reference). If it passes, a snapshot of it is made and the machine boots from the snapshot. If it fails, the machine won't boot and you are told to reinstall. The System Volume cannot be altered in the tiniest way by the user. It is never necessary to erase and install a clean one unless it fails verification and won't boot. It can't exist except in a totally unmodified state.
2. On Silicon Macs, it is not necessary to change the Startup Security Settings from Full Security in order to make a bootable external. It is necessary on T2 Intel macs. Originally, on Silicon Macs, Reduced Startup Security was required if installing an older (hence less secure) version of macOS. (reference). Recently I have twice made a bootable external Monterey on a Ventura M1 mac with full security so I think this has changed.
Last edited:
does not work with my hardware, please stop posting the same thing. thanks anyways
Ugh! My "experiment" did not work! I did boot the Mini from that USB installer for Ventura, and did use Disk Utility there to Erase and Format the external SSD. The installation of Ventura "seemed" to go OK (took a while), but the Mini restarted from its internal SSD containing my OS 12.6.1 system. I even tried to select that external Ventura SSD to restart (it did show up), but then I got the error "SDErrorDomain error 108". When I did a Get Info on that external SSD, it showed the version as V13.0.1, and also showed that about 25 gig had been used. But when i looked at individual System-level folders, within the Applications folders. there were all these "Apple-related" apps (I believe they are part of the OS), and they were "X'd" out, ie, could not launch any of them.
This makes the 4th time I have tried to install Ventura onto an external SSD. Has anyone had success in doing this? And can anyone point me to a source with how to do this? I can't believe Apple has made this so, so difficult!
This makes the 4th time I have tried to install Ventura onto an external SSD. Has anyone had success in doing this? And can anyone point me to a source with how to do this? I can't believe Apple has made this so, so difficult!
Yes I am sure I can get the internal drive to boot, the question is, can you boot from an EXTERNAL CLONE of that internal drive. ?? It seems to fail the security and hang during boot thats my issue ....
Yes exactly... people I know besides myself cannot install or clone to external SSDs and the BOOT from them. it fails and some people here are focussed on the internal drive . I have no trouble with internal drives, its booting from the external that fails. BTW it works great in catalina and Big Sur, but not Monterey or Ventura
As I've stated above, it does work with Monterey. I have no issue booting either of my Macs from their respective SuperDuper! backups. I believe I can actually do a "mix and match" and boot, say my MacBook Air from one of my Mac Mini backups.
I dont have a monterey to try again at the moment, but it did not work with ventura
Understand. Wish we can get a definitive report from someone who has successfully installed Ventura, and for which either CCC or SD work as usual, ie, can backup/clone an existing Ventura system to an external device, and that device is subsequently bootable.
AS it is, I really do not want to test Ventura using my internal SSD. Wish Apple would alleviate this problem!
The article wasn't trying to help you with your external, though the content is applicable to externals and internals. I was only trying to correct things that article said.
About bootable external clones .....this thread, and your difficulties using CCC to make an external bootable clone, illustrate perfectly why Mike Bombich has relegated bootable clones to legacy and made the -Data volume clone to be the default mode, as per the article I linked earlier. Migrating from a -Data only clone is much more reliable and what Apple uses for a Time Machine restore (TM backups are also -Data vol only). It doesn’t take a whole lot longer to restore and migrate.
Bootable clones have become more and more problematical with the SSV and Apple Silicon. Over the past two years both CCC and SD has been a cycle of works/doesn’t work, with a lot of variability in individual experiences, as this thread illustrates.
Mike Bombich recognised this, but Dave Nanian persisted, (but see below). They both have to use the Apple proprietary System Replicator tool onto a freshly erased destination. I don’t believe SD has any magic that CCC doesn’t.
As I said in post#2 I don’t use bootable clones but I have been testing bootable clones using both CCC and SD during the past two years and before out of interest, and for threads like this one. Sometimes they have worked and sometimes they haven’t. Just did two tests:
Test 1. CCC. I plugged a Samsung T5 into my M1 MBA and erased it with Disk Utility. Then did a CCC Legacy Bootable backup of the internal Ventura 13.0.1 with CCC version 6.1.4b3 (7425) The resulting ‘bootable’ clone would not boot. Got message that “The version of macOS on the selected disk needs to be reinstalled”.
Test 2. Superduper! I then started again and used Superduper! 3.7 (v126). First surprise was that the default mode is now also to copy only the Data volume. To make a bootable copy you are instructed to change the default options to “Erase <destination name>”….in other words the same as CCC does. I went ahead and did that with exactly the same result as CCC.
Todays tests are just more evidence supporting Mike Bombich’s opening words in the link:
"Copying Apple's system is now an Apple-proprietary endeavor; we can only offer "best effort" support for making an external bootable device on macOS Big Sur (and later OSes). We present this functionality in support of making ad hoc bootable copies of the system that you will use immediately (e.g. when migrating to a different disk, or for testing purposes), but we do not support nor recommend making bootable copies of the system as part of a backup strategy".
Last edited:
Yes, I can boot from it. I make a clone with Get Backup Pro. imac 2019. USB 3.0 connection via satechi hub
Last edited:
Exactly what, In your opinion, makes Get Backup Pro stand out? How does it compare against Carbon Copy Cloner? or against whichever other backup software you're familiar with? Thanks!Yes, I can boot from it. I make a clone with Get Backup Pro. imac 2019. USB 3.0 connection via satechi hub
Exactly. In fact, it would be good if you provide EXACT details and information:
1. What Mac OS are you using?
2. Does Get Backup Pro backup/clone EVERYTHING, ie, both the OS and all the "data" on the source device? That, of course, is what CCC and SD have been doing. For me, that is the case for SD up to and including Monterey.
Really appreciate you providing such detailed information. In my case, at least up to and including Monterey, SuperDuper! does make a bootable clone of my internal SSD on both of my Macs to external SSDs. In fact, when I was trying to get Ventura installed on my new Samsung T7 1TB SSD, I did use SuperDuper! to backup/clone all the information on my Mac Mini's internal SSD running OS 12.6.1 to that new SSD, and it definitely worked.
So, I'm wondering going forward, how does one recover from a disaster? If SD (or CCC) can still clone the Data portion of one's internal SSD to an external SSD, would one recover doing the following steps:
1. Make sure one has the latest version of the Mac OS in a folder on the Data "area".
2. While things are good, make a bootable Mac OS-specific installer USB flash drive. For now that would be Monterey for me, given that it is stable. When Ventura finally gets stable, I would re-make my bootable flash drive with Ventura (I actually have that now, but I can boot either Mac from its respective Monterey-based SD backup, and recover from there).
3. Using step 4 in this link:
Clean Install macOS Ventura: A Comprehensive Tutorial
This article will tell you how to clean install macOS Ventura from a bootable USB. Remember to backup your data before installing macOS Ventura on Mac.
install the latest version of the Mac OS you have. That would be Ventura, at least for me.
4. The question I have is that after doing that, will I be given the opportunity to migrate all the information on the SD Data backup (CCC for folks who use it)? If the answer is yes, this process would be OK, although not as "fast" as what I can do now:
1. Boot the respective Mac from the SD backup/clone.
2. Use Disk Utility there to Erase/Format the internal SSD of the Mac I am "fixing".
3. Navigate to the Monterey Installer file, launch it, and do a clean, fresh installation of Monterey onto the internal SSD.
4. When completed., I am offered the opportunity to migrate all my Apps, Settings, etc, from the SD backup.
I think you are making it too complicated!
"Disaster" can be different things:
1. If the the computer died and you have a SD or CCC clone of your Data volume (or a TM backup which will be of your Data volume) from your old computer. All you would do is plug the clone into the new computer and boot it. It will start into Setup Assistant and you will be asked if you want to migrate from another Mac, another disk or a TM backup. Chose this option and it will leave your new Mac in same state as old Mac when the last backup was made.
2. If the computer works but your data has just become so messed up you want to revert to a previous state. The quickest and easiest thing is to do a snapshot restore. Time Machine creates snapshots every hour on the boot volume (quite separate from the Time Machine backup volume). Boot to Recovery, select Restore from Time Machine, and chose the TM snapshots on the boot disk (not the Time Machine backup disk). You will be shown the last 24 hourly snapshots. Click an appropriate time and restore and the machine will reboot to the time of the snapshot. Whole process takes about as long as a reboot. No migration involved. I used it two days ago after a failed attempt to use Adobe Cleaner tool to uninstall Application manager caused Lightroom syncing to stop working. Restored to a snapshot two hours earlier and all good again, except I had to re-set up Touch ID and Apple wallet. I believe this method is little known or used, but is by far the best for some situations.
3. Your computer won't boot or gives nasty messages about needing to reinstall. Boot from a bootable Installer, reinstall the System Volume. At the end of the install, Setup Assistant launches so proceed as 1. You might need to erase the old Boot volume pair and create a new volume in Disk Utility to install onto. When I got my my new-to-me used M1 MBP I foolishly thought I would wipe the internal volume pair from a bootable installer to "start all over". I don't know what I did wrong but I deleted the internal Recovery and had to use Apple Configurator 2 from my other Mac to to completely restore firmware and Recovery volume. So I am wary about erasing! I should just have done option 4 below.
4. If you just want to restore your machine to Factory state for whatever reason (selling or starting all over) all you need to do is use the new "Erase all Content and Settings" which leaves you in Setup Assistant as 1 and 3 above.
No, I am not trying to make it complicated.
Right now, on my SD backups, there are 2 "Volumes" each: the System Volume (I assume that contains Mac OS V12.6.1 and all its associated contents), and the Data Volume, which contains my apps, settings, etc. Again, right now, SuperDuper! makes those copies, and the backup is bootable.
Going forward, if SD can only backup/clone my Data "information", I would assume one cannot boot from that volume. Is that correct?
There are 2 scenarios I am thinking about: when I want to move to a new OS (that would be Ventura in my case) via your #3 above. or I just want to "replace" my current Monterey environment with my most recent SD backup of that environment. For moving to the new OS, that kind of goes along with what I mentioned above. I would follow what you said in #3 above (also what I previously mentioned), After booting the machine from that Install Bootable Flash Drive (Ventura in this case), I would first use Disk Utility to Erase and Format the internal SSD. After doing the installation of Ventura via the bootable USB drive, you are saying Setup assistant would proceed as usual, and that (of course) includes the migration of all my Apps, settings, etc, from the Data volume created by SD. That would be fine.
The other my scenario is my current situation, and if I just need to "correct/replace" my current OS 12.6.1 environment (system and Data) via the SD backup I have now. I have the latest Install macOS Monterey installation file, so I would just do the following:
1. Start up the Mini from that backup.
2. Use Disk Utility there to Erase and Format the Mini's internal SSD.
3. Navigate to that Install macOS Monterey installation file, launch it, and then do a clean, fresh install of Monterey (OS 12.6.1 currently) onto that empty, formatted internal SSD.
4. Setup assistant would then launch, and I would proceed from there.
Not really complicated, and especially when I've done the "correct/replace" steps I mentioned above many, many times.
Right now, on my SD backups, there are 2 "Volumes" each: the System Volume (I assume that contains Mac OS V12.6.1 and all its associated contents), and the Data Volume, which contains my apps, settings, etc. Again, right now, SuperDuper! makes those copies, and the backup is bootable.
Going forward, if SD can only backup/clone my Data "information", I would assume one cannot boot from that volume. Is that correct?
There are 2 scenarios I am thinking about: when I want to move to a new OS (that would be Ventura in my case) via your #3 above. or I just want to "replace" my current Monterey environment with my most recent SD backup of that environment. For moving to the new OS, that kind of goes along with what I mentioned above. I would follow what you said in #3 above (also what I previously mentioned), After booting the machine from that Install Bootable Flash Drive (Ventura in this case), I would first use Disk Utility to Erase and Format the internal SSD. After doing the installation of Ventura via the bootable USB drive, you are saying Setup assistant would proceed as usual, and that (of course) includes the migration of all my Apps, settings, etc, from the Data volume created by SD. That would be fine.
The other my scenario is my current situation, and if I just need to "correct/replace" my current OS 12.6.1 environment (system and Data) via the SD backup I have now. I have the latest Install macOS Monterey installation file, so I would just do the following:
1. Start up the Mini from that backup.
2. Use Disk Utility there to Erase and Format the Mini's internal SSD.
3. Navigate to that Install macOS Monterey installation file, launch it, and then do a clean, fresh install of Monterey (OS 12.6.1 currently) onto that empty, formatted internal SSD.
4. Setup assistant would then launch, and I would proceed from there.
Not really complicated, and especially when I've done the "correct/replace" steps I mentioned above many, many times.
I never trusted Carbon Copy Cloner, as it can spoil the clone. Get Backup Pro was the first to learn how to clone Ventura. And only then Carbon Copy Cloner learned to do it. I use MacOS Ventura.
I am familiar with all the programs that can clone a MacOS system.
I am missing something. What is wrong with your current 12.6.1 environment?
If it boots there is nothing wrong with the System Volume, as it is passing verification, ie it is a completely unmodified clean System Volume (as in my post#29).
If you are unhappy about your Data volume (because of "cruft" etc) there is no point in cloning or restoring from the backup as it will put all the cruft back, and you would be no better off. Cruft is all on the Data Volume.
The only way to clean up your Data Volume is to "Erase all Data and Settings" and reinstall your apps and data from scratch.
Last edited:
Right now there is nothing wrong with my current environment. I was just giving a "what if" scenario.
But what about your #3 and doing a clean, fresh installation of Ventura onto my internal SSD, then migrating needed items from the SD Data Volume backup? Did I state that correctly?
Also, according to Vudman's post above, CCC does backup/clone a Ventura based system to an external SSD, and it is bootable!
Round and round we go!
Last edited:
More confusion! When you say "And only then Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC) learned to do it", does that mean CCC successfully backups/clones both your System Volume and your Data Volume on your internal SSD to an external SSD, and is that external SSD bootable? And if that's the case, is that for a Ventura-based system? Again, for me, SuperDuper! does exactly that for my Monterey-based systems on both of my Macs. What about Get Backup Pro, and SuperDuper!? You said you are familiar with all such programs.
As it is, if CCC did as I stated above (asking you to verify that), that is in direct contrast to what Mike Boreham posted above.
Really need CLEAR statements here.
Last edited:
I tried all of them too - CCC SuperDuper etc. Try using Disk Utility - cleanest simplest method by far. I imaged my Monterey internal NVMe (Source) to my external NVMe (Destination), so that I had a bootable volume BEFORE upgrading to Ventura 13.01 (plus Time Machine x2). Worked like a charm, and fast.
Sorry, I focussed on your second scenario, but similar comments apply to the first.
There are a coupe of underlying principles that your scenarios and methods seem to me to be missing.
The first is that the System Volume cannot exist in anything other than a clean state. There is no point in re-installing the System Volume of the same macOS version.
The second is that nothing is cleaned up or improved by migrating your existing Data volume back. Any problem with the original, cruft etc, will be migrated back. (Edit I would just qualify that by saying some caches etc may not be cloned, so would not be copied back and this might have a benefit, but you could safe boot instead)
If you want to upgrade to Ventura just use Software Update and it will replace your Monterey System Volume with a Ventura System volume and link it to your existing Data volume. You can use a bootable installer for this instead of Software Update but there is no need, and no benefit from erasing either the old System Volume or the Data Volume in advance. You do not need to migrate the Data Volume in from a backup. Setup Assistant would not be involved.
It is useful to have a bootable installer for when things go wrong. It is also essential if you want to install a different macOS from the version in your Recovery onto an external, or to avoid re-downloading the installer if you have a few machines to do.
Last edited: