Carbon copy cloner

[Chozun]

Sorry, I focussed on your second scenario, but similar comments apply to the first.

There are a coupe of underlying principles that your scenarios and methods seem to me to be missing.

The first is that the System Volume cannot exist in anything other than a clean state. There is no point in re-installing the System Volume of the same macOS version.

The second is that nothing is cleaned up or improved by migrating your existing Data volume back. Any problem with the original, cruft etc, will be migrated back. (Edit I would just qualify that by saying some caches etc may not be cloned, so would not be copied back and this might have a benefit, but you could safe boot instead)

If you want to upgrade to Ventura just use Software Update and it will replace your Monterey System Volume with a Ventura System volume and link it to your existing Data volume. You can use a bootable installer for this instead of Software Update but there is no need, and no benefit from erasing either the old System Volume or the Data Volume in advance. You do not need to migrate the Data Volume in from a backup. Setup Assistant would not be involved.

It is useful to have a bootable installer for when things go wrong. It is also essential if you want to install a different macOS from the version in your Recovery onto an external, or to avoid re-downloading the installer if you have a few machines to do.

Man, I thought this would be uncomplicated! While your comments are appreciated, most of them don't apply. Let me explain.

First, I rarely, if ever, have issues with any of my Macs. One important reason is that I keep my machines lean, mean, and clean. In actuality, I am doing cleanup every day. Most of that involves permanently removing deleted EMails. I use Thunderbird, and it is easy to do that with it. Not sure about other EMail programs, but I suspect most folks do not do that. I also keep my software up to date. Such tasks go along with what you said about the System Volume needing to be in a clean slate. And also my Data Volume is as clean as possible.

Secondly, whenever I move to a new Mac OS, I always do a clean, fresh installation of the new OS (after using Disk Utility to Erase and Format the internal SSD), followed by the migration of the Data Volume. As it is, when I am ready to do the move, I first perform my usual weekly (Saturday) tasks: run Onyx, TechTool Pro, and then do a SuperDuper! backup. The Data Volume copied by SD would be as clean as possible, so no issues with it. I have been following that clean installation method for so long, and it has always worked very well for me. I sometimes do it "within the same OS", ie, if for example I am running V1 of the OS, and V2 is released, there are times when I will again do a clean, fresh installation of V2. There are other times where I will just do the software update. In either case, never have an issue.

In actuality, I recently needed to do a re-installation of V12.6.1 on my Mini. What happened is when I tried to install the initial version of Ventura, V13.0, onto an external SSD, I lost my start-up chime. I did read about the issue and checked and re-checked and re-rechecked the settings within the Sound System Preference panel (and yes, my external speakers were on and worked fine (no issue in getting sound from applications)). One of the recommended fixes was to re-install the OS. That is exactly what I did, and I got the start-up chime back. But when it happened recently again, a clean installation did not correct the issue.

In any event, I'll just stick with my steps that I stated above, They seem to be fine.

Of course there is now the issue of no longer being able to boot from an external SSD that contains a backup made by either CCC or SD with a Mac running Ventura. Note though that Vudman claims just the opposite (but not sure which backup/cloning program). As I suspect you saw, I have requested clarification from him.

 

[Chozun]

I tried all of them too - CCC SuperDuper etc. Try using Disk Utility - cleanest simplest method by far. I imaged my Monterey internal NVMe (Source) to my external NVMe (Destination), so that I had a bootable volume BEFORE upgrading to Ventura 13.01 (plus Time Machine x2). Worked like a charm, and fast.

So Disk Utility can create a bootable clone. Hmm, never knew that. Wonder what are the advantages and disadvantages of using it over CCC, SuperDuper!, or whatever.

Can you make that bootable volume using Disk Utility with V13.0.1 of Ventura as the source OS on your internal NVMe?

I actually already have a bootable backup/clone, made with SuperDuper! of my Monterey systems for each of my Macs onto external Samsung SSDs.

 

[MBehr2]

So Disk Utility can create a bootable clone. Hmm, never knew that. Wonder what are the advantages and disadvantages of using it over CCC, SuperDuper!, or whatever.

Can you make that bootable volume using Disk Utility with V13.0.1 of Ventura as the source OS on your internal NVMe?

I actually already have a bootable backup/clone, made with SuperDuper! of my Monterey systems for each of my Macs onto external Samsung SSDs.

Yes, the volume is bootable. I had to play around with the sub volumes because I had "Show All Devices" enabled. I think I had already installed Ventura on the external NVMe first before I tried this, as I was satisfied Ventura 13.01 was stable enough. So I just imaged my original Monterey 12.6.1 overtop of the Ventura 13.01 - and after that, I did a test boot from the external, and it worked. There are a few examples on the Internet I remembered seeing, and thought I would try it. Like when I installed Ventura on an external NVMe drive attached to my MBAM1 - just drag the installer onto the drive, and macOS automatically starts installing on the drive. Both tidbits of info I picked up when researching how to make bootable volumes for both M1 and intel machines. Enjoy!

 

[Mike Boreham]

In any event, I'll just stick with my steps that I stated above, They seem to be fine.

That's fine. My opinion is that your practices made perfect sense in the days of single combined system and data volumes, but continuing them in the era of the SSV and separate Data volume means you are doing things unnecessarily.

 

[yellowhelicopter]

I had this problem on MM M1 (just restarts after installing some files and that's it, no errors) when I was installing by usual way (Apple store installer) and my external drive was connected to USB-C port. All went fine when I temporarily connected it to USB-A, just for the sake of installation. I know, iMac M doesn't have USB-A, but just for information.

 

[Chozun]

I had this problem on MM M1 (just restarts after installing some files and that's it, no errors) when I was installing by usual way (Apple store installer) and my external drive was connected to USB-C port. All went fine when I temporarily connected it to USB-A, just for the sake of installation. I know, iMac M doesn't have USB-A, but just for information.

That's confusing! What difference (besides speed) does the port to which the SSD is connected to make? Both of my Samsung T7 1TB external SSDs came with both USB-C/Thunderbolt and USB-A cables. I've been trying to do the installation of Ventura via one of my Thunderbolt ports on my 2020 M1 Mac Mini, but no luck. Yet I can make a SuperDuper! backup to that SSD via that same connection, and the SSD is subsequently bootable. As Tom Cruise said, "I have the need, the need for speed".

 

[Chozun]

That's fine. My opinion is that your practices made perfect sense in the days of single combined system and data volumes, but continuing them in the era of the SSV and separate Data volume means you are doing things unnecessarily.

As I stated above, assuming neither CCC nor SD can not work the same with Ventura, and thus backup only the Data Volume (and then of course the external SSD is not bootable), I already stated how I would proceed in case of a disaster,

Yet some other folks are saying they can install Ventura onto an external SSD, and it is bootable. Similarly, according to Vudman, "Yes, I can boot from it. I make a clone with Get Backup Pro. imac 2019. USB 3.0 connection via satechi hub". And in a subsequent post, he seemed to imply that CCC also works!

 

[Chozun]

Yes, the volume is bootable. I had to play around with the sub volumes because I had "Show All Devices" enabled. I think I had already installed Ventura on the external NVMe first before I tried this, as I was satisfied Ventura 13.01 was stable enough. So I just imaged my original Monterey 12.6.1 overtop of the Ventura 13.01 - and after that, I did a test boot from the external, and it worked. There are a few examples on the Internet I remembered seeing, and thought I would try it. Like when I installed Ventura on an external NVMe drive attached to my MBAM1 - just drag the installer onto the drive, and macOS automatically starts installing on the drive. Both tidbits of info I picked up when researching how to make bootable volumes for both M1 and intel machines. Enjoy!

You stated "just drag the installer onto the drive, and macOS automatically starts installing on the drive.". I never heard of that before, ie, just dragging the installation file onto the device. The usual instructions are to 1) launch the installation file, and 2) point to the device where you want to install it (the same is true for just about all applications installed and/or upgraded via a .dmg file). I'd like to see link that describes this.

PS: OK, I just tried that, ie, dragged the Ventura OS 13.0.1 Installation file onto my Samsung T7 1TB SSD. But nothing subsequently happened, ie, after the file was copied, it did not launch. Would like a clear explanation of exactly what you did, and where you saw that suggestion.

 

[yellowhelicopter]

That's confusing! What difference (besides speed) does the port to which the SSD is connected to make? Both of my Samsung T7 1TB external SSDs came with both USB-C/Thunderbolt and USB-A cables. I've been trying to do the installation of Ventura via one of my Thunderbolt ports on my 2020 M1 Mac Mini, but no luck. Yet I can make a SuperDuper! backup to that SSD via that same connection, and the SSD is subsequently bootable. As Tom Cruise said, "I have the need, the need for speed".

Yes, the same here.

In my case it was CCC though, not SuperDuper, but it cloned Monterey/Ventura fine to SSD via USB-C connection, and the drive was made bootable. However, no luck with the same connection when I was using installer from Apple store. It reboots in the end after copying files and return the system to the pre-installation state without any errors. The same installer works just fine when drive(s) connected via USB-A. The same situation repeats when I need to do just a minor update of macOS, I need to switch my external bootable drive to USB-A each time for that. I positive because I tried several times and with two different drives (one of them was HDD, other SSD) and it always the same - CCC worked with either connection, Apple installers only with USB-A.

 

[Chozun]

Yes, the same here.

In my case it was CCC though, not SuperDuper, but it cloned Monterey/Ventura fine to SSD via USB-C connection, and the drive was made bootable. However, no luck with the same connection when I was using installer from Apple store. It reboots in the end after copying files and return the system to the pre-installation state without any errors. The same installer works just fine when drive(s) connected via USB-A. The same situation repeats when I need to do just a minor update of macOS, I need to switch my external bootable drive to USB-A each time for that. I positive because I tried several times and with two different drives (one of them was HDD, other SSD) and it always the same - CCC worked with either connection, Apple installers only with USB-A.

OK, but still confusing! How exactly did you install Ventura onto the external Drive? You say this: "it cloned Monterey/Ventura fine to SSD via USB-C connection". What do you mean by Monterey/Ventura? Do you mean either/or? If that's the case, did you first update and/or install V13.0.1 of Ventura onto your internal SSD?

Again, please explain exactly the steps you went through to install Ventura onto your external SSD. And if you installed Ventura there, how is the external SSD bootable?

 

[yellowhelicopter]

OK, but still confusing! How exactly did you install Ventura onto the external Drive? You say this: "it cloned Monterey/Ventura fine to SSD via USB-C connection". What do you mean by Monterey/Ventura? Do you mean either/or? If that's the case, did you first update and/or install V13.0.1 of Ventura onto your internal SSD?

I connected external drive to USB-A port, downloaded installer from Apple store and run it.

Before that (when I didn't yet know that USB-A would help) I used CCC to clone Monterey from internal to external when it was connected to USB-C port, it also worked.

Chronology:

- External drive was connected to USB-C, I tried to install Monterey on it from scratch with system update utility - failed.
- Used CCC to clone Monterey 12.5 from internal drive to it - success.
- Some time later tried to update Monterey on the external from 12.5 to 12.6 with system update utility - failed
- Connected 3.5" HDD in enclosure to USB-A (simply hadn'd other cable available) and just for experiment tried to install Monterey on it with the utility - success (to my big surprise! here I thought that maybe the connection type was the culprit)
- Switched the external to USB-A port and again tried to update Monterey from 12.5 to 12.6 with the utility - success!
- Some time later downloaded Ventura 13.0 installer from store and tried to update external to Ventura thinking that the installation problem might have been fixed (was connected via USB-C) - failed
- Reconnected the drive to USB-A port and run the installer - success

Now I didn't try to use ССС to clone Ventura via USB-С, but I'm sure it would work just as it worked with Monterey.

Again, please explain exactly the steps you went through to install Ventura onto your external SSD. And if you installed Ventura there, how is the external SSD bootable?

Yes, of course it has been bootable in both cases (cloning with CCC via any connection, or using installer or system update utility via USB-A connection). Actually, I'm now using it as my main drive. The only inconvenience is that I have to switch to USB-A port each time I want to update macOS.

 

[Chozun]

I connected external drive to USB-A port, downloaded installer from Apple store and run it.

Before that (when I didn't yet know that USB-A would help) I used CCC to clone Monterey from internal to external when it was connected to USB-C port, it also worked.

Chronology:

- External drive was connected to USB-C, I tried to install Monterey on it from scratch with system update utility - failed.
- Used CCC to clone Monterey 12.5 from internal drive to it - success.
- Some time later tried to update Monterey on the external from 12.5 to 12.6 with system update utility - failed
- Connected 3.5" HDD in enclosure to USB-A (simply hadn'd other cable available) and just for experiment tried to install Monterey on it with the utility - success (to my big surprise! here I thought that maybe the connection type was the culprit)
- Switched the external to USB-A port and again tried to update Monterey from 12.5 to 12.6 with the utility - success!
- Some time later downloaded Ventura 13.0 installer from store and tried to update external to Ventura thinking that the installation problem might have been fixed (was connected via USB-C) - failed
- Reconnected the drive to USB-A port and run the installer - success

Now I didn't try to use ССС to clone Ventura via USB-С, but I'm sure it would work just as it worked with Monterey.





Yes, of course it has been bootable in both cases (cloning with CCC via any connection, or using installer or system update utility via USB-A connection). Actually, I'm now using it as my main drive. The only inconvenience is that I have to switch to USB-A port each time I want to update macOS.

OK, congratulations! Weird that you were able to update from Monterey to Ventura on the external (Monterey-based) SSD connected to the USB-A port, versus the USB-C port. Given that my new Samsung T7 1TB SSD came with both cables, I will definitely try it. Actually, I will first try to install Ventura onto that external SSD connected to the USB-A port.

If that's successful, I wonder if I could then connect that external SSD to the USB-C (actually Thunderbolt) port on the Mini and boot the Mini up from that external SSD. It would be faster, as would running my apps.

If it works, the tip for you will be in the mail!

 

[yellowhelicopter]

If that's successful, I wonder if I could then connect that external SSD to the USB-C (actually Thunderbolt) port on the Mini and boot the Mini up from that external SSD. It would be faster, as would running my apps.

That's what I do. I switch back to USB-C/thunderbolt port after installation or update and it boots and works properly, no problems.

 

[Chozun]

OK, congratulations! Weird that you were able to update from Monterey to Ventura on the external (Monterey-based) SSD connected to the USB-A port, versus the USB-C port. Given that my new Samsung T7 1TB SSD came with both cables, I will definitely try it. Actually, I will first try to install Ventura onto that external SSD connected to the USB-A port.

If that's successful, I wonder if I could then connect that external SSD to the USB-C (actually Thunderbolt) port on the Mini and boot the Mini up from that external SSD. It would be faster, as would running my apps.

If it works, the tip for you will be in the mail!

IT WORKS!!!! Yes, connecting the Samsung External T7 1TB SSD via USB-A led to a successful clean installation of Ventura, OS 13.0.1, onto it, and Set-up assistant ran like normal and allowed me to migrate everything from the internal SSD on my Mini. Subsequent booting from that external SSD worked as expected. However, one caveat.

I wanted to see if that external SSD would boot with it attached to one of the USB-C (actually Thunderbolt) ports on the Mini. So, after restarting the Mini in my Monterey system (still on the internal SSD), I ejected the SSD from the USB-A port, then reconnected it to the USB-C port. Went to the Startup Disk Preference Pane, and selected that external SSD to restart (it did show up). But no go, ie, the Mini restarted from its internal SSD. So, I then turned off the machine, restarted and held down the power button, and the external SSD subsequently showed up as a choice to boot from. Selected it, and voila! The Mini booted from that external SSD.

So far, the few applications I ran (Thunderbird, Brave, Onyx, LibreOffice, and Magic Number Machine) all work fine. Need to do some more testing, especially SuperDuper!. What I will need to do for that is to connect one of my Samsung 850 Pro 512 gig SSDs to the USB-A port, launch SuperDuper!, and backup/clone my Ventura based system to the MacMini backup partition (I have another one on another SSD). I can then see what results.mIf I get too "chicken" to do that, I have another external SSD I can use that has some empty space on it. That might be safer.

In any event, MANY, MANY thanks to yellowhellcopter for the tip. I now can test Ventura like I wanted to.

 

[Chozun]

I wonder what Apple's explanation would be regarding this USB-A versus USB-C anomaly. Really, really baffling, to say the least.

 

[scouser75]

I've just bought an external drive to backup my MBP running Ventura. Previously, I know we could use CCC to backup, clone and make a bootable drive with CCC, but what's the situation now? I'm a touch confused.

 

[diego.caraballo]

I've just bought an external drive to backup my MBP running Ventura. Previously, I know we could use CCC to backup, clone and make a bootable drive with CCC, but what's the situation now? I'm a touch confused.

You need to right-click your destination disk, and then click "Legacy Bootable Copy Assistant".
On the next screen choose "Bootable System clone using Apple's proprietary APFS replicator". You need a empty disk for this type of backup.

 

[scouser75]

Thanks Diego. So I can't have both a bootable disc and backup on the same ext HD?

 

[Mike Boreham]

Thanks Diego. So I can't have both a bootable disc and backup on the same ext HD?

No it doesn't mean that. Because the only way the Sealed System Drive can be copied is with the Apple ASR tool the normal backup options are not available.

 

[chabig]

what's the situation now?

The system volume doesn't need to be backed up on Apple Silicon (AS) or T2 Macs. Because of new security measures and built in fallback systems, it cannot become corrupted and you'll never need to reinstall it. On the AS Macs, if the SSD fails the machine is toast and won't boot from any drive, even an external. You either get the computer repaired or you buy a new one.

CCC backs up the only stuff that's important--your own data. That's all you need to restore to a new machine.

 

[scouser75]

No it doesn't mean that. Because the only way the Sealed System Drive can be copied is with the Apple ASR tool the normal backup options are not available.

Deleted as I just saw chabig's reply 😁

 

[scouser75]

The system volume doesn't need to be backed up on Apple Silicon (AS) or T2 Macs. Because of new security measures and built in fallback systems, it cannot become corrupted and you'll never need to reinstall it. On the AS Macs, if the SSD fails the machine is toast and won't boot from any drive, even an external. You either get the computer repaired or you buy a new one.

CCC backs up the only stuff that's important--your own data. That's all you need to restore to a new machine.

AS = Apple Silicon, which will never fail / become corrupted, right? But the SSD itself can fail, in which case I'm stuffed, unless I have some form of backup? Which is where CCC comes in and this will backup all my files and settings, right?

Sorry guys, I'm new to all this again from my 2009 Mac Pro.

 

[chabig]

Don't apologize. Things have changed. What you said above is correct. The system will never become corrupted, and if the SSD fails you're stuffed, same as if the CPU or any other critical component fails. A CCC backup will preserve your data and settings until you get the machine fixed or replaced.

 

[scouser75]

Thank you mate for the assurance.

I'll download CCC tomorrow and backup everything. I'm guessing I can have several backups and if needed choose which one to use?

 

[Mike Boreham]

Thank you mate for the assurance.

I'll download CCC tomorrow and backup everything. I'm guessing I can have several backups and if needed choose which one to use?

You don't need to back up the SSV, only your -Data volume, which is what the default CCC mode is. CCC smart updates this. The -Data volume contains absolutely all your data, apps and settings. When you need to restore you can migrate from this with Migration Assistant or Setup Assistant.