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Carriers Object to Apple's Plans for Built-In iPhone SIM Even as GSMA Moves Forward

So what?

I don't get why this is bad for consumers or carriers

The technology could allow customers to buy the iPhone and sign up for service on Apple's website and start using it immediately.
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Isn't this how it is now? I walked out of an apple store with a working phone.

Closer to the operators' hearts, it could allow customers to switch more easily from one to another or insist on shorter-term contracts.
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So the idea is that this embedded SIM isn't locked to one Carrier? Thats great for consumers. Not so good for the carrier, but I highly doubt that they're going to subsidize your iPhone AND give you a shorter contract. Now you'll have the choice of $600 Unlocked iPhone or $200 Unlocked iPhone with a 2 year carrier contract. Either way, your GSM iPhone still isn't going to work on Verizon or Sprint and I felt that T-Mobile was less reliable than AT&T when I had them.

The only way this makes any difference to anybody is that now you can use your iPhone on a different carrier while traveling abroad and potentially switch carriers without buying a new phone.

As for the "my phone died and I need my contacts on my old nokia" argument, how often does that really happen. I'm not saying that it doesn't, but that it shouldn't be the reason that we prevent technology from evolving.

Ultimately, I think the consumer will see little difference in the day to day use of our phones.
 
spazzcat said:
This is based on what if "I break my phone". Do you break your phone a lot? There is a reason the cell phone companies are against this and its because it benefits the customer.
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An example of when I like to put my Sim in an old phone is if I am going to do something that puts a much greater risk to my phone being broken but I still want a phone with me.
For example when I go skiing again I do not plane to take my blackberry up on the mountain with me. I plan to just throw my sim in my old phone so if I break a phone I break one I do not care about. At the end of the day of skiing I will take the sim out of the spare phone and put it back in my blackberry for when I go out to dinner or around town.

Another time is when I go mountain biking I have done it. My junk phone I have dropped into the muddy water and all I did was wipe it off make sure it was still on and then tossed it back into my bag. If it was my blackberry I more than likely would of pulled the battery then worried about it. Junk phone if it breaks who cares I have 2-3 more I can use.
 
In essence, the difference between the two is that with the current method, you are physically tied down to a particular SIM card. If you lose your phone, you have to visit the carrier and get a new one. With this method, that is no longer necessary. Also there would be no more need to physically swap SIM cards if you want to go from one phone to another. You would already have the SIM card in each phone and ready for use at whichever carrier you choose to use.
 
They want to withhold their subsidies? No problem, that means no ETF.

Something that has gotten out of hand anyways. I dont mind paying an ETF if I dont honor the contract.

Poor carriers. Guess they like their 20yr old ways too much.
 
JAT said:
Ok, I'm not singling this post out, except that it really highlights what I want to say....

I don't get it. What are you people talking about?

The SIM function and the concept of network compatibility is what gives us this option. It doesn't matter if the card is removable or not. People have argued in this thread that you need a removable card to switch easily, other people are arguing that you need a non-removable card to switch easily. Seriously, does this even affect anyone but the people who make SIM cards? And then only the removable versions, the storage/ID tech is still necessary.
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sure in theory, a built-in sim may sound like a great idea but it gives Apple and even carriers even more control over your iPhone.

people in this thread seem to think that built-in sim registration is going to be this magical system that will allow you to use your phone on any carrier at any time.

consider the following:

1. Apple will need to partner with each carrier to support registration and payment
2. Carriers could refuse to participate in Apple's system.
3. A lot of the smaller carriers could be left out
4. Assuming Apple is partnered with a carrier in the first place, you will need a data or Wifi connection on the phone to register with Apple's system or even worse, you will need to tether to itunes on a computer to switch

compare that to if apple just sold an unlocked iphone that could accept any sim card.

1. No special agreement between Apple and a carrier is required
2. All you need to do is buy the sim card and put it in your phone

it is pretty clear to me that the choice that provides the most freedom to the customer is an unlocked cell phone with a removable sim card.
 
Fraaaa said:
I actually thought that this was exactly what Apple is aiming for.
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Not really... the fact that your SIM is not removable doesn't mean you won't have a SIM ID you can register to use pay-as-you-go service.

The whole point it being able to switch carriers without having to get a new sim for each carrier. This is going to be a Universal SIM card that doesn't need to be removed.
 
profets said:
How in the world would a sim-less phone suddenly allow customers to switch more easily or insist on shorter-term contracts??
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I don't get that, either. If anything, that should make it slightly more difficult to switch carriers.
 
ruinfx said:
compare that to if apple just sold an unlocked iphone that could accept any sim card.

it is pretty clear to me that the choice that provides the most freedom to the customer is an unlocked cell phone with a removable sim card.
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Yeah, IF Apple would ever do that :

http://store.apple.com/ca/configure/MC603C/A?mco=MTgxNTgyMjI

Not every country is like the US. Apple already does this. There is no benefit to the no-SIM method.

Amazing Iceman said:
The whole point it being able to switch carriers without having to get a new sim for each carrier. This is going to be a Universal SIM card that doesn't need to be removed.
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And thus you will require a new SIM and carrier based activation for every phone you want to use, instead of simply swapping the SIM. You will also be stuck to the carrier list supported by the device rather than any carrier offering a standard SIM card.

Less choice, less freedom, The Apple Way is the Right Way. :rolleyes:
 
KnightWRX said:
Hum, you have to activate it. What makes you think carriers will let you simply activate a "2nd phone" or deactivate an existing one ? There's way too much involved that a SIM makes dead simple.
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That's because you're backwards thinking. Technology is moving forward. You really think software can't handle activating a phone without physically swapping SIMs? Really??? You have got to be kidding me. Ultimately, your point is utter nonsense because that is exactly what they are proposing to do.

And now you're moving from "this gives consumers less control" to "the carriers aren't going to let the consumer do it." Which basically proves my point.
 
KnightWRX said:
Hum, you have to activate it. What makes you think carriers will let you simply activate a "2nd phone" or deactivate an existing one ? There's way too much involved that a SIM makes dead simple.

You guys are good at trying to make up some imaginary scenarios that involve carrier network features that don't yet exist. Meanwhile, some phones are even moving to dual SIM slots because vendors, carriers and users realise SIM swapping simply works easily and conveniently.

.....
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Bingo.. The sim model works perfectly right now. For all these new methods to work, there's going to have to be changes made to networks and carriers to support whatever new tech the sim-less phones will use... activating OTA, switch accounts, etc. but of course we know the carriers will do as little as possible to help consumers. Thats what I worry about. I know right now I have full control with using a sim card. What we don't know is how a carrier will handle the new system, and what options they'll give. what if they decided to not allow grey-market phones on their network similar to how cdma (sprint,vzw) carriers do?

I guess that brings us to the most important point.. we really don't know how this new sim-less tech will work. They haven't even decided it yet.. the gsma will have some group investigate the best way to implement this over the next few months.

Some info from GSMA site about the announcement:

The task force will analyse market requirements and deliver a technical solution as an evolution of the current SIM provisioning mechanisms. The proposed embedded SIM solution will include programmable SIM card capabilities to enable remote activation.

The group is expected to complete the analysis of market requirements by January 2011. The resulting technical solution will be built on the principles of openness and standardisation. Devices featuring the new SIM activation capability are expected to appear in 2012. Traditional SIM-supported devices will continue to work on existing networks.
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We need to hope they really do follow openness and standards as current gsm/sim methods do.. and that the carriers will properly comply with those standards.
 
KnightWRX said:
I was the one who said that. Paying a 2nd line or 2nd phone ? No, see, I have had Cellphones for the last oh... 12 years. Each time I upgrade, I simply keep the old one around. If anything happens, I plop my trusty SIM in there and I don't lose any calls, all without having to pay anything extra to my carrier or even calling them or hoping they have some kind of OTA activation that works for my particular scenario.

I've had to do this about 3-4 times in the last 12 years. It was painless and just plain worked each time. I've also had to plop my SIM in my friend's phone a few times to turn on call forwarding after forgetting to charge my phone. That also just worked.
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Contradiction highlighted. That is exactly what you did, then. You bought new phones just because, which sounds expensive to me, at least when discussing the iPhone and similar. I tend to use mine till they break, or if I do upgrade, the old one tends to go to someone else. If it was an iPhone or Incredible, I'd Ebay it to pay for the new one. I can't get my FiL to upgrade his Nokia 5190. Yes, the one from 19xx.
 
newagemac said:
That's because you're backwards thinking. Technology is moving forward. You really think software can't handle activating a phone without physically swapping SIMs? Really??? You have got to be kidding me. Ultimately, your point is utter nonsense because that is exactly what they are proposing to do.
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What you do not get is the carrier MAY let you do it but they are going to charge a fee every single time you switch phones. Fee justified to them because it requires changes to their system Plus there is often there can be a 10-15 min lag before your sim will be switch or turned on. Look at Verizon which has no sim. It can take a little itme for them to get a phone switch in the system.

Sim it is switch sim out and boom done.
What I love about this thread is it is truly showing who the apple Apologizes are. I have seem people scream bloody murder about CDMA and no sim card problem but Apple is turning around and basicily doing the same thing and it is now the best thing since sliced bread.
 
newagemac said:
That's because you're backwards thinking. Technology is moving forward. You really think software can't handle activating a phone without physically swapping SIMs? Really??? You have got to be kidding me. Ultimately, your point is utter nonsense because that is exactly what they are proposing to do.
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Having worked with such automated provisionning systems in a past life, I know first hand that as soon as you cross the boundaries of what the system allows, the provisionning will fail and require manual intervention.

You think every case will be allowed OTA activation ? Dream on. Backwards thinking is better than dreaming of unicorns and fairies any day of the week.

newagemac said:
And now you're moving from "this gives consumers less control" to "the carriers aren't going to let the consumer do it." Which basically proves my point.
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Carriers might not be able to let consumers do it. Not all carriers might have the deals with Apple, Apple might not want to let some carriers in, smaller regional ones might not have the proper provisionning infrastructure.

All this to solve what exactly ? What is forward and better about a SIM you can't remove from the phone. That seems backwards to me.

JAT said:
Contradiction highlighted. That is exactly what you did, then. You bought new phones just because, which sounds expensive to me, at least when discussing the iPhone and similar. I tend to use mine till they break, or if I do upgrade, the old one tends to go to someone else. If it was an iPhone or Incredible, I'd Ebay it to pay for the new one. I can't get my FiL to upgrade his Nokia 5190. Yes, the one from 19xx.
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That's nice of you, I tend to upgrade my phones as soon as the "oh shiny!" bug bites, which leaves me with right now about a 4 phones lying around the house that work perfectly well, some close to 10 years old.

No contradiction on my part, I already paid for the phone, I want the new phone, I'm not paying any extras.
 
People should really learn to read linked articles. I suspect a lot of the detractors would not be complaining as much if they were reading this instead of an article about Apple.
 
Rodimus Prime said:
What you do not get is the carrier MAY let you do it but they are going to charge a fee every single time you switch phones. Fee justified to them because it requires changes to their system Plus there is often there can be a 10-15 min lag before your sim will be switch or turned on. Look at Verizon which has no sim. It can take a little itme for them to get a phone switch in the system.

Sim it is switch sim out and boom done.
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So like KnightWRX you're finally agreeing that this gives the consumers more control, but that the carriers are going to do things to try and keep the consumer from having more control over their own phone like Apple is pushing for with this initiative. Thanks for agreeing with me. ;)
 
profets said:
No, relying on a carrier to activate your phone on the network instead of a simple sim swap is what makes it harder.
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Well in that case, you simply don't understand what's being proposed, since that is exactly the opposite of how this system is intended to work.
 
newagemac said:
So like KnightWRX you're finally agreeing that this gives the consumers more control, but that the carriers are going to do things to try and keep the consumer from having more control over their own phone like Apple is pushing for with this initiative. Thanks for agreeing with me. ;)
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If the carriers can block this new method, the consumer does not have more control, he has less.

Thank you for finally seeing the light.

SIM swapping is free
"Infrastructure financing through administrative fees on each use of the provisionning system which might not allow the operation you want so you'll need to call anyway" probably won't be.

I'd rather just keep my trusty SIM. You guys know that we've had these SIMless phones available for quite a while now already right ? They're called CDMA/TDMA phones. :rolleyes:

paradox00 said:
Well in that case, you simply don't understand what's being proposed, since that is exactly the opposite of how this system is intended to work.
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No, this is exactly what the GSMA is proposing, automated OTA provisioning systems. It is exactly what others are proposing here too. Systems which could have fees. SIM swapping is free.
 
KnightWRX said:
If the carriers can block this new method, the consumer does not have more control, he has less.

Thank you for finally seeing the light.

SIM swapping is free
"Infrastructure financing through administrative fees on each use of the provisionning system which might not allow the operation you want so you'll need to call anyway" probably won't be.

I'd rather just keep my trusty SIM. You guys know that we've had these SIMless phones available for quite a while now already right ? They're called CDMA/TDMA phones. :rolleyes:



No, this is exactly what the GSMA is proposing, automated OTA provisioning systems. It is exactly what others are proposing here too. Systems which could have fees. SIM swapping is free.
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And you know that you can dial a code on those CDMA phones and change your phone....
 
newagemac said:
So like KnightWRX you're finally agreeing that this gives the consumers more control, but that the carriers are going to do things to try and keep the consumer from having more control over their own phone like Apple is pushing for with this initiative. Thanks for agreeing with me. ;)
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no I am saying it gives the consumer A LOT less control. They will be eatting fees every time they want to change phones.
Compared to sim card just swap it out and done. ZERO interaction with the carriers and no approval process to go threw.
 
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