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well than perhaps it is good that this happened..

people will trust icloud (and by result Apple) less

I don't think that is really what apple wants to come of this..

I don't see why people would trust Apple Less. This is more a case of users who lack common sense and also not fully understanding the T&C's and technology. I think a better phrase would be that people will think twice about what they do with their data and perhaps even what data they are storing where.
 
I don't see why people would trust Apple Less. This is more a case of users who lack common sense and also not fully understanding the T&C's and technology. I think a better phrase would be that people will think twice about what they do with their data and perhaps even what data they are storing where.

I don't know who would want to use icloud if it wasnt safe/secure.
 
well than perhaps it is good that this happened..

people will trust icloud (and by result Apple) less

I don't think that is really what apple wants to come of this..

There's no reason to trust Apple less. All consumer-level, basically free cloud services are vulnerable in one way or another. And I'm sure Apple will expedite adding two-factor security in more areas now that there is more visibility, even though for the average user it's probably not necessary because no one wants to see our normal humdrum pictures. There IS reason to be more educated about keeping your ultra-sensitive stuff more secure and how to do it.

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I don't know who would want to use icloud if it wasnt safe/secure.

iCloud is safe enough for the average person. Believe me, no one is clamoring to see your or my personal pictures.

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I understand fully the difference, and I appreciate it myself. I'm perfectly willing to say to someone who uses "123abc" for their bank password, when their money is stolen, "Well, that's hardly a surprise--you should have expected that to happen." while also fully believing that the person who stole the money belongs in prison every bit as much as the guy who breaks into an unoccupied house to loot the place.

But I see a difference between noting that bad things happen when you use weak passwords and what seems to me to be the victim blaming happening in this incident, which is the attitude that they deserved it because of their lack of security. That attitude implicitly absolves the criminal of blame, and further it's particularly bad when the crime isn't a simple theft or getting your computer infected by a virus but something irrevocable and private like getting photographs of your naked body stolen and shared among random strangers.

To me it gets into the same territory as telling someone not to walk around alone at night in a bad neighborhood and saying "It's her fault that she got raped for walking home from that party alone." The former is unfortunately good advice, but it does not then make it the victim's fault when something that should never happen does.


I think in deeper terms this gets at a moral issue, initially started by the hacker subculture decades ago, that many tech-heads have developed that "if you can, it's okay". That is, that if a system is poorly protected, it's the sysop's fault for not locking the doors better when an enterprising hacker figures out how to get in, and whatever happens at that point is fair game. It treats electronic breakins as an abstract; there is this chunk of data that's locked up, and if a clever person knows how to bypass those locks, they get the benefit of mucking around with it--defacing a homepage, sharing secrets, using services for free, etc. It hand-waves away that there are real-world impacts of an electronic break-in--labor to fix things, loss of income, stolen money or identities, deep violations of privacy--and that the people doing so are, more often than not today, just another sort of criminal who prefers to work from a living room or basement instead of with a crowbar and lockpick.

In the physical world, we expect banks to have vaults and security cameras and silent alarms and armed guards because they hold very valuable things, but we still consider bank robberies terrible crimes and rarely if ever fault the bank when one is attempted or pulled off. Similarly, private citizens take basic precautions--lock their doors and windows, maybe leave a light on or put up a fence--but when someone picks a lock or breaks a window to rob the house, no one says "Well, it's their fault for not putting in steel bars and an alarm system." We just say "That's terrible, I hope they catch the guy." If someone gets robbed because they forgot to lock their front door, or left a window open, most people likely say the same thing.

It seems to me that the digital world should be treated similarly--reasonable levels of security are, of course, advisable and should be practiced. And places that have very important things--banks, large businesses with a lot of credit card and private data--should have very stringent security in place to protect that stuff. But crimes committed there are still crimes, and should be treated and viewed as such by society, instead of as somehow different.

Of course, online is also a place where people can and do regularly make violent threats, say horribly racist and misogynistic comments, and spew vitriol in a comment thread that one would never consider face to face because it would get you either arrested or punched in the face.

I missed the post where someone said the people "deserved" what they got. Can you point it out to me? I don't think anyone here did. I certainly didn't.
 
I don't know who would want to use icloud if it wasnt safe/secure.

IMO It's safe and secure for the average person and day to day documents, but I wouldn't put my utmost personal pictures, documents or data up there. Basically I treat cloud sites like temp. storage or areas that I wouldn't care if the information hosted got out.

If anyone is hosting their bank records or personal images that are nudes or graphic then that's at their own risk....just as the T&C state.
 
Sounds like Apple is in damage control mode to prevent bad press for their appointment next week. :)

So far, this recent statement proves nothing.
Just as other statements don't prove that Apple has really done something specifically wrong in relation to all of this.
 
IMO It's safe and secure for the average person and day to day documents, but I wouldn't put my utmost personal pictures, documents or data up there. Basically I treat cloud sites like temp. storage or areas that I wouldn't care if the information hosted got out.

If anyone is hosting their bank records or personal images that are nudes or graphic then that's at their own risk....just as the T&C state.

Here is the applicable section of the T&C for iCloud:

APPLE DOES NOT REPRESENT OR GUARANTEE THAT THE SERVICE WILL BE FREE FROM LOSS, CORRUPTION, ATTACK, VIRUSES, INTERFERENCE, HACKING, OR OTHER SECURITY INTRUSION, AND APPLE DISCLAIMS ANY LIABILITY RELATING THERETO.

Last revised: September 18, 2013
 
For one, why would Apple advertising two-factor security guarantee people would a)see the ad and b) use the feature? I suppose they could take away the freedom to choose a person's security level and deal with people complaining even more about Apple creating a restricted system people can't personalize. Also, iCloud has never been advertised as an iron fortress of security. It's advertised as a convenient way to backup your stuff and share it across your devices. If you want something with an iron fortress guarantee, you need to go somewhere else. Anyone with half a brain should know you don't put super sensitive material on something simple like iCloud.

I didn't say taking away freedom, there would still be both options. My point is, how can a user make an educated choice to be prudent and more secure if they aren't presented with such choice or informed?

I do agree with your assessment about not storing sensitive data on the cloud. But the problem is that Apple is no longer giving us a choice. We are expected to trust Apple now. For example, I was able to sync notes, calendar and contacts via usb before. I can't anymore, there is only iCloud sync.

You may say, oh well, that's not sensitive data. Why not? Maybe you have an important date on your calendar that someone could exploit. Especially if you are a celebrity.

Ok so, I could stop using Apple's default apps, and try to workaround the paranoia and use some other 3rd party apps and design this whole strategy to be more secure about everything. This is NOT mainstream. Most users have no clue about this, they buy Apple to use something that works, an ecosystem where everything fits together and you don't have to read huge manuals to do things.

iCloud is expected to be secure, that's what Apple is telling us by removing usb sync from iTunes and forcing iCloud sync.
 
So what makes other services more secure? We've all known its limitations but suddenly Apple is the only unreliable company because some creepy perverts were obsessive enough to guess passwords and weak security questions of celebrities? This is pathetic.
 
So what makes other services more secure? We've all known its limitations but suddenly Apple is the only unreliable company because some creepy perverts were obsessive enough to guess passwords and weak security questions of celebrities? This is pathetic.

Well if Apple indeed allowed for infinite password tries at any level, then that's not really smart. Google sends you an email if your password was entered wrong several times I think.
 
I don't see why people would trust Apple Less. This is more a case of users who lack common sense and also not fully understanding the T&C's and technology.
Apple has always prided itself with making products that "just work". You should not be required to be a technology geek to safely use them. I don't think you can reasonably expect most users to understand, for example, how iCloud backup works and that it is possible for others to simply download your entire device contents if they somehow obtain your Apple password. Also, most of the iCloud services get turned on by default when you activate iCloud during the device setup process. I bet most people never change the settings and probably don't fully understand what all of them do.
 
Apple has always prided itself with making products that "just work". You should not be required to be a technology geek to safely use them. I don't think you can reasonably expect most users to understand, for example, how iCloud backup works and that it is possible for others to simply download your entire device contents if they somehow obtain your Apple password. Also, most of the iCloud services get turned on by default when you activate iCloud during the device setup process. I bet most people never change the settings and probably don't fully understand what all of them do.

Yes but, if you were the type of person that takes nudies of herself with the phone, wouldn't you check those settings just to make sure? :)
 
At the end of the it's not so much that they are idiots for using simple passwords, it's that they are idiots for taking nude pictures at all. If you're a celebrity then you're a major target and it's moronic to take self nudes if you don't want them leaked.

http://www.eonline.com/news/567562/kate-upton-reveals-what-has-prevented-her-from-posing-nude

^^^Talk about irony. Kate Upton is one of the most desired women on the planet and she does something dumb enough like taking nudes on a cell phone. I just don't understand how naive someone can be. I'm paranoid about that and im a nobody and no one would want to see me so a girl who is one of the biggest targets on the planet for takes them voluntary?
 
Apple has always prided itself with making products that "just work". You should not be required to be a technology geek to safely use them.

You don't have to be a tech geek to use iCloud Safely. You are expected to read the directions and T&C's though. That's not too much to ask for users is it? You also do have to exhibit some common sense. Uploading files you would be hurt or embarrassed to get out is a no no for people with common sense. Again, not too much to ask of the average user I think.

I don't think you can reasonably expect most users to understand, for example, how iCloud backup works and that it is possible for others to simply download your entire device contents if they somehow obtain your Apple password.

Really? You don't think it's reasonable that users understand how the system they are using works? It's not difficult stuff. Read the words and use some common sense. Most people I think do quite clearly understand the ramifications if a hacker gets a hold of their Apple Password. It's pretty simple, they will then become you and have the ability to take your stuff. In all seriousness, if people using an iPhone can't understand that, then perhaps they need to not use the phone.

Also, most of the iCloud services get turned on by default when you activate iCloud during the device setup process. I bet most people never change the settings and probably don't fully understand what all of them do.

They are turned on but you as the user still opt-in and have to agree. You are given a choice. I know as I just set up my new iPad air like two weeks ago and didn't restore it from a back up, I started brand new. Again, if someone doesn't take the time and invest the effort to understand in full what they are doing, then they have no one to blame but themselves should something go wrong. That's what I meant when I said these actors were either ignorant or simply didn't care.
 
Yes but, if you were the type of person that takes nudies of herself with the phone, wouldn't you check those settings just to make sure? :)

Plus, technically when the person isn't taking a picture of themselves, they don't even hold the rights to the photo. The person taking the photo does (according to the porn site disputing Jennifer Lawrence's demands to take them down). She would have to name the person taking the photos to have them demand to have them removed. Although I wonder how that works when it's your phone someone else is using. Does that mean when you are on vacation and ask someone to use your phone so you can get a picture in front of a cool fountain, THEY own the rights to the photo? That seems strange.
 
Plus, technically when the person isn't taking a picture of themselves, they don't even hold the rights to the photo. The person taking the photo does (according to the porn site disputing Jennifer Lawrence's demands to take them down). She would have to name the person taking the photos to have them demand to have them removed. Although I wonder how that works when it's your phone someone else is using. Does that mean when you are on vacation and ask someone to use your phone so you can get a picture in front of a cool fountain, THEY own the rights to the photo? That seems strange.


The framing, focusing, exposure etc is considered the art.

Not the equipment.
 
You don't have to be a tech geek to use iCloud Safely. You are expected to read the directions and T&C's though. That's not too much to ask for users is it?
What directions? Unless people actively search for knowledgebase articles on Apple's support site, all they see is this: "Automatically backup your camera roll, accounts, documents and settings when this iPhone is plugged in, and connected to Wifi". How many persons on the street do you think understand that they are opening themselves up to security risks by using this function? Even here on this forum, where people probably have an above-average technical understanding of Apple's products and services, many were surprised to learn what you can do using e.g. Elcomsoft's forensic tools.

And T&C? Are you kidding? Who reads pages after pages of smallprint legalese when setting up an exiting new toy?
You also do have to exhibit some common sense. Uploading files you would be hurt or embarrassed to get out is a no no for people with common sense. Again, not too much to ask of the average user I think.
I bet many average users don't even realize that their phone is uploading files in the background.

But this discussion is really going in circles. I don't buy the notion that Apple shares no responsibility in keeping their users' information safe, especially since they try to push people into using cloud services at every opportunity. And being a developer myself, I also think that Apple's security system, while very solid in the way it uses cryptographic methods, has serious flaws when it comes to usability. As regrettable as this incident is, I'm glad that they will now finally be forced to make improvements in this area.
 
The framing, focusing, exposure etc is considered the art.

Not the equipment.

True. But I effectively hired the person to take the photo and supplied the equipment. Since no payment was designated or limitations on my rights to the final product expressed, couldn't one assume that all rights to the final product would be transferred at the completion of the transaction?

This is all theoretical, of course.
 
What directions? Unless people actively search for knowledgebase articles on Apple's support site, all they see is this: "Automatically backup your camera roll, accounts, documents and settings when this iPhone is plugged in, and connected to Wifi". How many persons on the street do you think understand that they are opening themselves up to security risks by using this function? Even here on this forum, where people probably have an above-average technical understanding of Apple's products and services, many were surprised to learn what you can do using e.g. Elcomsoft's forensic tools.

And T&C? Are you kidding? Who reads pages after pages of smallprint legalese when setting up an exiting new toy?
I bet many average users don't even realize that their phone is uploading files in the background.


But this discussion is really going in circles. I don't buy the notion that Apple shares no responsibility in keeping their users' information safe, especially since they try to push people into using cloud services at every opportunity. And being a developer myself, I also think that Apple's security system, while very solid in the way it uses cryptographic methods, has serious flaws when it comes to usability. As regrettable as this incident is, I'm glad that they will now finally be forced to make improvements in this area.
That's not really an excuse for not finding out and looking into something, and just believing whatever one wants to believe without actually knowing. The real world doesn't work that way, whether it's convenient or fair or not, reality is reality.
 
What directions? Unless people actively search for knowledgebase articles on Apple's support site, all they see is this: "Automatically backup your camera roll, accounts, documents and settings when this iPhone is plugged in, and connected to Wifi". How many persons on the street do you think understand that they are opening themselves up to security risks by using this function? Even here on this forum, where people probably have an above-average technical understanding of Apple's products and services, many were surprised to learn what you can do using e.g. Elcomsoft's forensic tools.

And T&C? Are you kidding? Who reads pages after pages of smallprint legalese when setting up an exiting new toy?
I bet many average users don't even realize that their phone is uploading files in the background.

But this discussion is really going in circles. I don't buy the notion that Apple shares no responsibility in keeping their users' information safe, especially since they try to push people into using cloud services at every opportunity. And being a developer myself, I also think that Apple's security system, while very solid in the way it uses cryptographic methods, has serious flaws when it comes to usability. As regreattable as this incident is, I'm glad that they will now finally be forced to make improvements in this area.

100% agreed. The fact is Apple is not just pushing but in some cases forcing people to use iCloud without an alternative. There used to be usb sync for everything, now it's limited.

Like I said before, Apple is primarily at fault here. It's not just about nude pictures and recklessness; suppose these girls just took non-nude pictures, it'd be a breach an invasion of privacy nonetheless. And there is nothing the user can do, it's a vulnerability that Apple needs to fix.
 
100% agreed. The fact is Apple is not just pushing but in some cases forcing people to use iCloud without an alternative. There used to be usb sync for everything, now it's limited.

Like I said before, Apple is primarily at fault here. It's not just about nude pictures and recklessness; suppose these girls just took non-nude pictures, it'd be a breach an invasion of privacy nonetheless. And there is nothing the user can do, it's a vulnerability that Apple needs to fix.

1)Turn photo stream off. 2) Don't use a camera phone to take sensitive photos. There. Not "nothing they could have done".

Seriously, technology is making so many people brain dead and weak. Too many people want to live without being held accountable for any stupid things they do.
 
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Apple has always prided itself with making products that "just work". You should not be required to be a technology geek to safely use them. I don't think you can reasonably expect most users to understand, for example, how iCloud backup works and that it is possible for others to simply download your entire device contents if they somehow obtain your Apple password. Also, most of the iCloud services get turned on by default when you activate iCloud during the device setup process. I bet most people never change the settings and probably don't fully understand what all of them do.
Many things are simplified, but it doesn't mean that people shouldn't be responsible and still look into them. Just because a mortgage might take a couple of signatures (yes, it takes more) doesn't mean that people suddenly get to go around saying they had no idea they actually had to make timely payments or this or that, right? The real world is the real world, and while ignorance might be bliss, it doesn't excuse anything nor does it really help much with reality when reality comes around and makes itself known (for lack of a better phrase).

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100% agreed. The fact is Apple is not just pushing but in some cases forcing people to use iCloud without an alternative. There used to be usb sync for everything, now it's limited.

Like I said before, Apple is primarily at fault here. It's not just about nude pictures and recklessness; suppose these girls just took non-nude pictures, it'd be a breach an invasion of privacy nonetheless. And there is nothing the user can do, it's a vulnerability that Apple needs to fix.
What vulnerability would that be?
 
Many things are simplified, but it doesn't mean that people shouldn't be responsible and still look into them. Just because a mortgage might take a couple of signatures (yes, it takes more) doesn't mean that people suddenly get to go around saying they had no idea they actually had to make timely payments or this or that, right? The real world is the real world, and while ignorance might be bliss, it doesn't excuse anything nor does it really help much with reality when reality comes around and makes itself known (for lack of a better phrase).

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What vulnerability would that be?

From the Macrumors article we are discussing:

"...some of the leaked photos is in line with the use of the ElcomSoft software and possibly the iBrute software, which exploited a vulnerability in Find My iPhone to allow hackers unlimited attempts to guess a password. Apple has, however, patched the exploit, and has suggested iBrute was not a factor in the attacks. "

Yeap, Apple was at fault.
 
From the Macrumors article we are discussing:

"...some of the leaked photos is in line with the use of the ElcomSoft software and possibly the iBrute software, which exploited a vulnerability in Find My iPhone to allow hackers unlimited attempts to guess a password. Apple has, however, patched the exploit, and has suggested iBrute was not a factor in the attacks. "

Yeap, Apple is at fault.

Did you read the part where Apple said that the people didn't use that flaw or do you just not believe Apple?
 
From the Macrumors article we are discussing:

"...some of the leaked photos is in line with the use of the ElcomSoft software and possibly the iBrute software, which exploited a vulnerability in Find My iPhone to allow hackers unlimited attempts to guess a password. Apple has, however, patched the exploit, and has suggested iBrute was not a factor in the attacks. "

Yeap, Apple is at fault.
"in line" doesn't mean that it was used, and in fact more information saying it wasn't used for this and that plenty of other methods, and even places not even related to iCloud/Apple, were involved. So, while there was a security issue that Apple already fixed, the information so far doesn't show that it was used for this. So, again, what vulnerability is there that Apple needs to fix?

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Did you read the part where Apple said that the people didn't use that flaw or do you just not believe Apple?
And that it was already fixed too.
 
"in line" doesn't mean that it was used, and in fact more information saying it wasn't used for this and that plenty of other methods, and even places not even related to iCloud/Apple, were involved. So, while there was a security issue that Apple already fixed, the information so far doesn't show that it was used for this. So, again, what vulnerability is there that Apple needs to fix?

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And that it was already fixed too.

Right, but I don't know why some people here keep shifting blame back to the users when clearly there is stuff that Apple was at fault. I agree the user shares responsibility, but Apple does too.

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Did you read the part where Apple said that the people didn't use that flaw or do you just not believe Apple?

You tell me, should I trust Apple? Apple "suggested" it was not a factor, but the investigation is still ongoing.
 
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