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Chevy Volt costs $40,000 to build.
- Thread starter obeygiant
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Why can't we let the market drive the production of these new technologies? At $40k this thing is not a viable option, i read that the average household income of a volt buyer is $170k a year. Now, every one of those are getting a $7500-$10,000 government tax credit. So in short we are giving $10k tax credits to the 1%ers you guys hate so much.
When the technology gets there these things will be cheaper to manufacture and wont need government money to sell. We are running a $16 trillion dollar debt, let people pay for their own cars.
When the technology gets there these things will be cheaper to manufacture and wont need government money to sell. We are running a $16 trillion dollar debt, let people pay for their own cars.
Because as you pointed out, the cost of these vehicles will guarantee the market will reject them without help. And this isn't the electronic industry where companies like Apple can quickly adapt to a changing market. Cars take 4-6 years to develop. Auto manufactures can't adapt as quickly if one day the market demanded 12 MPG SUV's, but tomorrow demands 50 MPG hybrids. Toyota took a gamble and lost a lot of money with the Prius for 5 years before the gamble paid off with Katrina causing gas prices to soar to $4 a gallon and instantly changed the markets demands. And Toyota was able to take that gamble because they had their own government backing them and helped Toyota develop the Prius.
A 16 Kw Lithium-ion battery will not magically come down in price to where the Volt can be sold at $25,000 on day 1. New technology will cost you and that is what the Volt is. GM couldn't afford to price the Volt at $20,000 like the Prius and lose $20,000+ on each model sold. Not even Nissan could do that with the Leaf and is priced at $33,000. Or Ford with the Focus Electric at $39,000.
Because the market never drives environmentalism.
Environmentalism is always more expensive than the status quo with results that won't be seen until the future. Yet it's almost always worth it because you're inevitably screwed if you do nothing.
Here in LA, our skyline used to be full of smog. People were never gonna pay for smog checks on their own so the local government stepped in and required them. People complained it was a ploy to get tax money but look, in 2012 I can now walk to Little Tokyo and breathe at the same time.
And a Volt owner is not a 1%er. Unless you think everyone who owns a comparably priced SUV is also a 1%er.
I think that's typical, the prius used to cost as much or more than they sold it for as well. Long term, they make out.
That being said, I don't think I am interested in a coal burning car (Volt), but this could pave the way for more efficient electric motors, that could be powered by batteries that could be charged with the sun instead of being plugged in.
That being said, I don't think I am interested in a coal burning car (Volt), but this could pave the way for more efficient electric motors, that could be powered by batteries that could be charged with the sun instead of being plugged in.
I really don't get the everything is powered by coal logic on this board
Your car is charged by whatever source your local utility uses to generate electricity. If they use coal, it's coal. If they use nuclear, it's nuclear. If they own a solar farm, it's solar. Chevy has no say in it
In the same vein, if your Volt is powered by coal, so is your computer, your phone, your air conditioner, your fridge, and everything else you own that comes with a plug. And so is the gas station down the street that you use to fill up your ICE vehicle in protest of coal.
I am all for solar, wind, hydro, and nuclear electricity production. 54% of the electricity in the USA is from coal. I am not against the coal industry either, as of right now we still rely on fossil fuels and I don't see that as a problem.
But to claim this car produces no emission is false as of right now. It might at produce it where it sits, but it produces it while it's being charged.
Yes, the electricity that is charging the Volt could very well be coal. But, a power plant is more efficient than an ICE powered car. So while we still use fossil fuels to charge out vehicles, we are getting our energy from a more efficient source than regular ICE powered cars do.
A more important matter when it comes to electric vehicles IMHO is the battery. Mining for the materials is very dirty and what to do once the battery is worn out completely( even after giving them to power plants to help store electricity)?
Yet converting energy from a fossil fuel to electricity in a power station is more efficient than millions of cars burning petrol for kinetic energy
I don't think you can go by price alone. Who can afford a $40k vehicle that struggles to carry more than two people? Whereas my SUV can carry 7 or so. I can also use it to pull my boat.
I am comfortable with burning coal for electricity for the present, but the coal industry's "clean coal" lies are a farce. What do you think of "clean coal"?
As for the Volt, America is only harming itself by using the car as a political football. You can criticize it as much as you want, and there are valid criticisms to be made, but by sinking the Volt we are putting our country behind once again when it comes to hybrid vehicle technology and all related technologies. Europe and Japan will outcompete us in this market, and that is bad for our economy. It is a lose-lose scenario to try and kill the Volt at this point, since it kills any chance the GM will ever build a better, cheaper version in the future. It has it's flaws, but it still could be a viable product if less politicians got involved.
If you count the source it's not zero emission. Whether or not people want to count the source is up for debate because the source can vary from a lot of coal to zero coal. And even if you do, the EV carbon footprint ends up being less than the carbon footprint of an ICE vehicle. On top of that there are a ton of benefits gained by switching to electric vehicles. For one, the US doesn't have to be subject to oil market forces that are beyond its control. The consumer cost per mile gets halved when using an electric, will eventually become cost efficient as MFG costs go down, and may even become cheaper through Smartgrid billing. Third, US utilities are slowly transforming their portfolios to have a significant % of renewable generation and coal will eventually drop out of the picture.
On the otherhand, an ICE vehicle will always burn 100% petrol.
Being able to afford a $40K EV does not make someone a 1%er. Ironically there are plenty of EV owners out there who can't afford a boat.
You wanna talk about a 1%er EV, go look at the high end Model S. The $40K Volt (with $10k of it paid for by the Feds) and the cheaply made Leaf are not what rich people want to own.
It would be absurd to suggest that driving the Cadillac Escalade (which costs more than the Volt) makes you a '1%er', wouldn't it?
used to be filled with smog? please leave the city and stare at it from outside.
I don't have a problem with burning coal as well, and yes burning coal now is cleaner than it was 20 years ago. Same with burning any type of fossil fuel.
Things are changing, but for the average person right now, the technology is still too expensive. I imagine that will change soon.
Things are changing, but for the average person right now, the technology is still too expensive. I imagine that will change soon.
What america needs is to get rid of the backwards legislation restricting diesel engines. Our emission standards on them aren't making thing any cleaner but they do succeed in keeping fuel efficient diesels off the market and way more expensive and less fuel efficient.
There is a massive difference between "cleaner than it was 20 years ago", which is a reasonable stance, and simply "clean", which is a flagrant lie. I know a few people who work in the power industry, and they know that the 'clean coal' campaign is 90% misrepresentation. This is particularly true when such lies are used to shield the coal industry from implementing further environmental controls.
If we demand that the average person be able to afford the technology before we take it seriously, things won't change. Hybrids are not the solution to any potential energy crisis on their own - they are one quite small piece. But a lot of politicians are battling tooth and nail to hamper America's development of better hybrid technologies - technologies that can have a real knock-on effect in other alternative energy fields, since mugh of the technology is directly transferrable. Cheaper, better batteries are (for instance) something a lot of industries want.
Amen. It's happening, but only very slowly.
Well duh, my point isn't LA is now the cleanest city in the world - my point is smog levels here have dropped because of legislation.
When people aren't running around with face masks and nobody's talking about acid rain anymore, obviously something must've happened
Go look it up
Yeah but it still has the ridiculous equipment that does nothing but add costs and kill fuel economy that the world market CRD diesel's don't have and those burn perfectly clean. All the manufacturers are bringing over their models they only sell in Europe but the problem is they aren't bring the best feature which is the diesel engine. (the european models gas engines usually suck compared to the ones they offer in the US as a large percentage of people get the diesel) The rest of it is sometimes better sometimes worse depending on the model. The new escape (kuga in Europe) is definitely not a better value than the one it replaced, its way more expensive, uglier, and less utilitarian. The ground clearance is less as well. Ford has a lot of good things going for them but they are successful now because of the current escape, current fusion, and several other models which didn't come from Europe. They now are doing this One ford plan where they want to replace all the US models with European models and the replacements are not always better but they have been each time much more expensive. The focus price went up several thousand as did the escape (which currently is doing so well because its a great value and doesn't look like a jellybean on wheels like everyone else in the class). The biggest mistake of all though is discontinuing the escape hybrid. Its the best selling american hybrid right now because its the most useful of them all. I love ford a lot but their decisions lately have been a little questionable, see 2013 mks/mkt.
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It has everything to do with taxes. Europeans tax gasoline (petrol) more heavily than diesel. Here, it is not really cheaper to run a diesel, at least in a broad sense. It works in certain niches, but not generally.
Ground clearance on the Escape is largely irrelevant IMO. Most SUVs, even full-sized models, never navigate anything taller than a speed bump. Even Subarus have more ground clearance than the current Escape.
I think most European Fords are better than their American counterparts. The Focus, the best small Ford in years, was not designed in the US but in the UK.
I think Americans have a huge sense of entitlement. Our car and fuel prices are artificially low, and we hold to the unreasonable notion that we can somehow keep it that way forever. I think the reality is just getting used to higher prices, buying smaller viehicles and driving less.
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The diesel grand cherokee in europe gets 28 mpg in the city. There gas v6 version here gets 16 in the city. Chrysler plans to bring the diesel here for the 2013 model year. EVen with the slightly higher diesel price here the extra fuel economy far outweighs the slight price hike per gallon.
Right, the US gets a diesel truck and under 30mpg - not the 50-60mpg hatchbacks. And that is ridiculous. My Subaru already gets 28mpg.
That isn't to say I don't think it's a good idea to put a diesel in the Grand Cherokee - I do - but we aren't seeing the really fuel-sipping cars over here yet. Where, for example, is the diesel Fiat 500?