Chicago Auto Show: 2008 Pontiac G8

[aloofman]

The one thing that I always wondered about was why drop Oldsmobile and keep Buick. I thought Olds was the better brand name. With regards to Pontiac and Saturn, Aren't they in roughly the same price range. Don't they kill each other in the market.

Olds became a brand without much of a market, in kind of a forgotten zone that was too much like Chevy and Saturn. Buick, on the other hand, DOES have a market: old people.

Pontiac and Buick as they are now yes, they don't add much. But, in the future Pontiac at least has a purpose. Cheap RWD performance. The G6 and G5 looks like they will be going RWD in the future. Nothing is set in stone and things can change, but from what I am reading at a GM forum I go to Pontiac's lineup is going RWD. Buick though I am not so sure. I mean the Enclave is a nice CUV. Buick is going for affordable luxury. But, I am not so sure that Buick can shake its image. If Cadillac can, I guess Buick could too, but it might be too late.

PS: that response with the merging was aimed at MacNut.

Oh, I know it was meant for him, I just figured that responding to you was responding to both.

All of these GM divisions are just brand names though. How many car buyers think "sporty" when Pontiac's name comes up, even though that's the clear intention? The best RWD sports car of all of them is a Corvette, after all. And what's Saturn's mission now that it's no longer a stand-alone division?

Of course, all of these brand issues would be semantic if GM just made better cars.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

GM has badge engineered themselves to death. Most auto enthusiasts know that the only difference between a "sporty" hipster Pontiac, rental-fleet-bound Chevy and geriatric-express Buick is some sheet metal and options packages. Same platform, same drivetrains, same switchgear. Sure, they tune engines, drivetrains and suspensions differently but they are still quite similar. Plus people are aware of that cookie cutter-ness - this perception is perhaps even more important than the real similarities.

They aren't the only ones to do it of course, but are perhaps the worst offenders. Every carmaker does some parts-bin bingo here and there but American carmakers are the biggest badge-engineerers around, and I think that has a lot to do with lower percieved-quality.

 

[aloofman]

American carmakers are the biggest badge-engineerers around, and I think that has a lot to do with lower percieved-quality.

The badging has been around since the early days of GM, so I'm not sure that it's directly related to quality perceptions. The reason GM amassed these brands in the first place was to beat Ford's styling blandness. And for a long time, these brands really were distinguished enough from each other that someone could consider themselves a "Chevy man." But long ago they stopped trying to do much more than attach a different logo to the car.

A friend of mine knows someone who had a Dodge back in the early 1980s. It had a Chrysler logo on a different part of the car.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

It has been around for a long time, it's true, but there was a time when all of those different badges represented totally different automobiles. After the Japanese invasion things got more and more cookie cutter, and bespoke chassis for different models died out almost entirely.

And I think it does relate at least partially to GM's image problem. Extensive badge-engineering carries with it a whiff of engineering laziness. Cars that use the same platform, same drivetrains and many other shared components are that much less different and unique than two cars that are completely different. When you market one as a sports car and another as a family car, people expect them to be different. Badge-engineering erodes that uniqueness, at least for some people.

 

[quagmire]

Problem is that we're not going to see Pontiac make there own platforms, engines, transmissions, etc. We're not going to see Chevy make their own engines, platform, etc. GM doesn't have the money for it anymore and probably will never have the money to do it again unless they shrink big time( brand wise). We are going to see the 3.6 V6 in many cars, the LS2 in different cars, etc. There might be the occasional exclusive engine for a brand for a bit, but I bet it will find its way into another brand car.

 

[aloofman]

And I think it does relate at least partially to GM's image problem. Extensive badge-engineering carries with it a whiff of engineering laziness. Cars that use the same platform, same drivetrains and many other shared components are that much less different and unique than two cars that are completely different. When you market one as a sports car and another as a family car, people expect them to be different. Badge-engineering erodes that uniqueness, at least for some people.

Right, but is that a quality issue? Do people link that bland sameness with being poorly built? It seems to me more like two issues hammering them at the same time than symptoms of the same problem.

Re GM not differentiating the brands very well: For example, I think Nissan does a much better job distinguishing the 350Z from the Infiniti G35, even though they are mechanical clones of each other.

 

[darkwing]

I love Holden. I have a 2006 GTO (Monaro) with a turbo kit from STS Turbo.

 

[blitzkrieg79]

Indeed. But I'll still take a 100+BHP/Litre V8 or V10 from the likes of Audi or BMW over the the yanks stuborness to stick to the archaic pushrod, thanks.

Ehhhh, I see you are just one of those guys that just loves HP. Anyway, as Quagmire mentioned in his earlier post, if you really wanna measure performance of an engine forget the displacement and the number of cylinders and just go with amount of horsepower/torque produced per actual weight of the engine and in that department your German cars look pretty pathetic as they are mostly heavy constructions compared to Japanese/American counterparts. European cars look very good aestheticaly and have nice interiors but thats about it, Japanese got them beat when it comes to performance per dollar and when it comes to quality I would rank Europeans behind Japanese, US, and even Koreans as Hyundai made great strides towards producing reliable cars.

We all know about British cars quality, French and Italians are not better, and Germans are definately NOT what they used to be, however due to their rich history they still have a big name for themselves but quality wise they definately went down.

I know this is not a good example but look at this years Dakar Rally. VW (Europes largest automaker) created Race Tourage 2 with impressive engine (on paper) and was actually doing great and then the quality issues arised and they didn't have one car in top 3 this year after all the big money invested and big words spoken. A car can look great on paper but you can't ignore quality issues (sometimes due to bad engineering and making high HP engines which the blocks can't reliably handle)

 

[dllavaneras]

It's meh for me. Nothing too spectacular...

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Right, but is that a quality issue? Do people link that bland sameness with being poorly built? It seems to me more like two issues hammering them at the same time than symptoms of the same problem.

Re GM not differentiating the brands very well: For example, I think Nissan does a much better job distinguishing the 350Z from the Infiniti G35, even though they are mechanical clones of each other.

I don't want to hammer the issue too much, because I think you have a good point...it's just that if they have four brands in the same market and are too lazy to make them more then superficially different (but still expect us to see them as different cars), what does that that say about the amount of effort they put into other aspects of design, like building reliable, smooth-revving and lightweight engines or sourcing interior bits that won't fall off after a month?

But I've said my bit...I'm really not that angry.

....although the only GM car I could see myself buying is a Corvette.

 

[Abstract]

Re GM not differentiating the brands very well: For example, I think Nissan does a much better job distinguishing the 350Z from the Infiniti G35, even though they are mechanical clones of each other.

That's because Nissan has 2 brands: Nissan and Infinity.
Toyota has 2 "main" brands: Toyota and Lexus
Honda has 2 main brands: Honda and Acura.

It's easy to understand that one is general, and one is part of the same company's luxury wing.


GM has..........I can't even name the brands, or tell you the difference between them. A smart way to conduct business is to make it clear where the car fits in the lineup. There's no point making 10 SUVs if 4 of them look similar/identical on paper. It clouds the message, and the distinguishing features of the cars in their lineup.

If I were GM, I'd just make 3 brands, and one would be Cadillac as my luxury brand. They don't need Pontiac, Saturn, AND Saab. Keep one or 2, and ditch the rest. Saab can make their Euro-styled cars, cheap and midpriced. Pontiac can make their American cars, cheap and mid-priced. If someone wants to stick to rear-wheel drive cars (which is what Quagmire says about Pontiac), then have a list of cars in the Pontiac brand that's clearly marked "Rear-Wheel Drive Models" in their catalogue. I think Chevy would be a great brand for ALL their trucks and SUVs and such. Actually, I'd do what the other brands do and just have separate regular and luxury lines since it's so vividly clear for buyers.

The one thing that I always wondered about was why drop Oldsmobile and keep Buick. I thought Olds was the better brand name. With regards to Pontiac and Saturn, Aren't they in roughly the same price range. Don't they kill each other in the market.

That's silly, silly goose. Oldsmobile has the word OLD in it. Yes, old people are supposed to buy those cars, but not even old people want to be told they're old.

 

[MacNut]

That's silly, silly goose. Oldsmobile has the word OLD in it. Yes, old people are supposed to buy those cars, but not even old people want to be told they're old.

Then who was buying Buicks. It wasn't the 20 something down the street. Besides Tiger Woods I don't know many young Buick drivers.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Besides Tiger Woods I don't know many young Buick drivers.

He doesn't drive Buicks - GM pays him millions of dollars to drive them on TV.

 

[aloofman]

....although the only GM car I could see myself buying is a Corvette.

Agreed. For the money, it's the best sports car available. Not that I have the money.

 

[MacNut]

He doesn't drive Buicks - GM pays him millions of dollars to drive them on TV.

Exactly, and if he's not driving a Buick who is, I never see any new Buicks on the road.

 

[Superdrive]

Give me a B-body or maybe even a D-body and we'll be talking. A nice full-size car is what GM needs back in its lineup. This G8 is probably a step in that direction and as close to a real body on frame style vehicle we'll get for a long time.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Give me a B-body or maybe even a D-body and we'll be talking. A nice full-size car is what GM needs back in its lineup. This G8 is probably a step in that direction and as close to a real body on frame style vehicle we'll get for a long time.

Unless you get a Crown Vic.

Right now Ford and GM are still in business because they sell lots and lots of trucks that are high-profit margin and dodge some of the emissions and safety standards imposed on cars. Otherwise they'd already be history.

GM should dump at least one or two more "divisions" and focus more on bulding the remaining couple brands than badge engineering one platform into 10 "different" cars.

 

[MacNut]

The Crown Vic is nothing more then a Mercury Sable with a beefed up frame. I myself like a bigger car, they are great in snow and if Im in a crash I have some protection. The downfall for Ford in my opinion was when they dumbed down the Mustang and turned it into just a normal car with a Mustang logo.

 

[MacBoobsPro]

What is this I see? An American car that hasn't been designed with a ruler? Someone from Europe must have designed it...

Or Japan

 

[MacNut]

Or Japan

It looks like a Honda Civic to me.

 

[Roy Hobbs]

Or Japan

That thing is ugly.....

 

[aloofman]

Exactly, and if he's not driving a Buick who is, I never see any new Buicks on the road.

Old people. Seriously, the surveys indicate their average driver is in their mid-60s or older.

The Crown Vic is nothing more then a Mercury Sable with a beefed up frame. I myself like a bigger car, they are great in snow and if Im in a crash I have some protection.

Since the Crown Vic sells better, maybe it's the Sable that's the clone. (Not that it matters.) My grandmother had a Crown Vic that I drove numerous times. It was solid, comfortable and had some giddyup, but ride and handling were terrible, like trying to park a boat at a pier. It's not a bad car, just not a style that's popular anymore.

Unless you get a Crown Vic.

Right now Ford and GM are still in business because they sell lots and lots of trucks that are high-profit margin and dodge some of the emissions and safety standards imposed on cars. Otherwise they'd already be history.

To be fair, the foreign makers are taking advantage of the same lower requirements. They just didn't get into the game until more recently. The newest problem for GM and Ford is really that Toyota, Nissan, and Honda have jumped into the big truck market and succeeded. Their cash cows have real foreign competition now in trucks, not just in cars. The Japanese makers already make money on small cars, unlike the Big Three.

Did anyone else think it was bizarre that GM's Super Bowl ad showed a robot worrying about being laid off? It's either really lame or incredibly insensitive. Maybe both.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The Crown Vic is nothing more then a Mercury Sable with a beefed up frame. I myself like a bigger car, they are great in snow and if Im in a crash I have some protection. The downfall for Ford in my opinion was when they dumbed down the Mustang and turned it into just a normal car with a Mustang logo.

The Crown Vic platform was around before the guy who designed the Sable was born. Slight exaggeration, but only just. The Sable is a unibody midsize sedan with a FWD V6 drivetrain. The Corwn Vic is a full size sedan with a detuned version of the Mustang V8, ladder frame and weighs two tons. Totally different cars.

The Sable, Taurus, Impala, Camry, Accord and Bonnevile are all much smaller than the Crown Vic. The ladder chassis gives them the ruggedness of a truck, whuch is why cops and taki drivers use them.

 

[Markleshark]

Or Japan

Which, ill have you know is based on the Renault 17 (Or at least the early Lancers were), again, designed in Europe.

 

[quagmire]

Did anyone else think it was bizarre that GM's Super Bowl ad showed a robot worrying about being laid off? It's either really lame or incredibly insensitive. Maybe both.

Are you apart of this group?

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/02/08/suicide-prevention-group-tells-gm-to-pull-robot-ad/

Seriously, I know people were going to be offended by the ad. You can't avoid it with ads like these. But, I can't stand how this country has become so politically correct. If I say black instead of African American, I will offend people and they will call me racist, I can't say Happy Christmas or I will offend people who aren't christian. Now ads can't show suicide because it is insensitive even though it was in a dream. While we're at it we should ban murder, suicide, rape, etc from ads, games, movies because they'll offend some group who are trying to rather prevent an event or helping people to get over a murder, suicide, rape, etc. But, this should be in its own thread so I am going to end it here.