Chicago Auto Show: 2008 Pontiac G8

[Lord Blackadder]

I think the Koreans were associated with the Japanese industry's reputaion by many consumers, and they did work hard to improve their quality. Some are still crap, but they also have made some pretty solid cars, such as the current Tiburon.

GM, on the other hand, will never be able to associate itself with the Japanese.

 

[Draygin]

Here we go again.

What athorities do you go with. I was commenting on the fact that car magazines found Pontiac to be a performance brand. The original post asked, who considers Pontiac a performance brand anymore. Obviously only Euro centric sidline fans disagree.

As for the GTO simply being reskinned, na, the engine was from the us, suspension Pontiac as was the interior. About the same as the Firbird and Camaro, but the working Holden used were from the US. The Zeta platform is part of the Pontiac future as is many other RWD and AWD cars. As I said, Pontiac is going back to the flagship of performance for GM. Chevy was holding back the other divisions of GM since the 40s or better. If you want to argue with me please stick to the context.

 

[Draygin]

Let's hope not.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

What athorities do you go with. I was commenting on the fact that car magazines found Pontiac to be a performance brand. The original post asked, who considers Pontiac a performance brand anymore. Obviously only Euro centric sidline fans disagree.

Car magazines find Pontiac to be a performance brand, and average brand, or a worthless brand depending on which one you read. My point was that car magazines cater to a target audience, and their reviews are invariably biased in that target audience's direction. Magazines can make objective observations too, I won't deny that, but just because some magazine pronounces something means nothing to me unless they back it up with facts I deem convincing. It has absolutely nothing to do with Eurocentrism on my part.

As for the GTO simply being reskinned, na, the engine was from the us, suspension Pontiac as was the interior. About the same as the Firbird and Camaro, but the working Holden used were from the US.

Essentially you've described a reskin...the styling was mildly re-worked (with fake hood scoops...gag), the interior was altered, and the name was changed. I know nothing about the suspension being changed. What did they replace? If all they did was re-tune the ride that's hardly anything to get excited about. I'm not trying to knock GM for bringing an Aussie car over here, I think it was a great idea. I just don't think it's fair to say that GM North America is responsible for the GTO, since it's a Monaro with superficial changes.

The Zeta platform is part of the Pontiac future as is many other RWD and AWD cars. As I said, Pontiac is going back to the flagship of performance for GM. Chevy was holding back the other divisions of GM since the 40s or better. If you want to argue with me please stick to the context.

My argument has been consistent - Pointiac is just a re-brand of other GM cars. If GM wants Pontiac to be taken seriously by the motoring public, and not just GM fans, they need to make cars that are substantially different from the grocery-getters. That means doing more than adding body cladding and spoilers and tacking on racy names. They also need to stop resurrecting famous musclecar names and attaching them to turds like the current Impala.

I'm not just knocking GM for fun - in fact my biggest source of irritation is the fact that I think that GM has the potential and capability to make lots of great cars (and does make a few), but they're just too lazy to actually do it. They'd rather sit back on their SUV and truck profits than compete as agressively as they could in the tough compact car and midsize sedan markets.

The GTO was a step in the right direction, even if the hot-rodder old farts didn't appreciate it. The Solstice is downright exciting. The 'vette is also excellent. But right now pretty much everything else is not so exciting. Hopefully you are right about the next generation of models, because GM needs to fundamentally change what it markets as "performance cars".

 

[aloofman]

Car magazines find Pontiac to be a performance brand, and average brand, or a worthless brand depending on which one you read. My point was that car magazines cater to a target audience, and their reviews are invariably biased in that target audience's direction. Magazines can make objective observations too, I won't deny that, but just because some magazine pronounces something means nothing to me unless they back it up with facts I deem convincing. It has absolutely nothing to do with Eurocentrism on my part.

The two car mags that I read most often (Car & Driver, Road & Track) have considered Pontiac pretty much a joke for at least 10 years. Like I said earlier, they were (and are) genuinely excited about the Solstice and liked the GTO. Not that I take all they say as gospel (C&D, in particular, has a huge pro-BMW bias), but somebody can't insist to me that Pontiac is respected and expect me to just believe that.

My argument has been consistent - Pointiac is just a re-brand of other GM cars. If GM wants Pontiac to be taken seriously by the motoring public, and not just GM fans, they need to make cars that are substantially different from the grocery-getters. That means doing more than adding body cladding and spoilers and tacking on racy names. They also need to stop resurrecting famous musclecar names and attaching them to turds like the current Impala.

This was my point exactly. Only people who already like Pontiac think of it as a performance brand, the rest of the car-buying public is unconvinced. If GM made cars that convinced me of it, that would be pretty cool.

 

[quagmire]

The two car mags that I read most often (Car & Driver, Road & Track) have considered Pontiac pretty much a joke for at least 10 years. Like I said earlier, they were (and are) genuinely excited about the Solstice and liked the GTO. Not that I take all they say as gospel (C&D, in particular, has a huge pro-BMW bias), but somebody can't insist to me that Pontiac is respected and expect me to just believe that.

I think C&D has a huge bias to Honda as well. I question though C&D's latest comparo of the G35 and 328i. I mean WTF? 306 HP in the G35 vs 230 HP in the 328i. Not a fair comparison. Why didn't they do the 335i? More expensive then the G35 could of been the reason( the 328i was already more expensive then the G35)? If it is that then they should of done the 335i and then knocked it down for costing more. Even though I am sure the BMW would of made it up in the subjective tests......

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I think Car & Driver has a very pro-Honda, Pro-BMW bias. To be fair, BMW and Honda both consistently sell cars that are built to a high standard and fun to drive. But they tend to overlook good efforts by other manufacturers sometimes. Whenever they do a sports sedan roundup, The BMW 3-series wins, even though it's very expensive and not always the highest-performer. A WRX might not be as refined as a 335xi, but it's a LOT cheaper and faster too.

The G35 is a great effort from Nissan, and sales have shown that people agree with me on that. I'd probably take one over most 3-Series sedans.

 

[aloofman]

I think C&D has a huge bias to Honda as well. I question though C&D's latest comparo of the G35 and 328i. I mean WTF? 306 HP in the G35 vs 230 HP in the 328i. Not a fair comparison. Why didn't they do the 335i? More expensive then the G35 could of been the reason( the 328i was already more expensive then the G35)? If it is that then they should of done the 335i and then knocked it down for costing more. Even though I am sure the BMW would of made it up in the subjective tests......

Some of their cutoffs for the comparos are kind of loopy, and they always print several letters from readers complaining about it. They're never going to please everyone or get all the cars of a universally-accepted class. You're right though, they almost always find a way to get the BMW on top anyway. So much so that, on the rare occasions that the BMW doesn't win, they acknowledge their "perceived" bias and use it to claim they don't have a bias at all!

I personally don't find their Honda bias as severe, but that's at least partly because every Honda car in my family has been practically bulletproof, so it tends to dovetail with my own anecdotal (read: scientifically useless) experience. One thing's for sure though: C&D will ding other cars for bland styling, but they give Hondas a free pass on it.

 

[quagmire]

I personally don't find their Honda bias as severe, but that's at least partly because every Honda car in my family has been practically bulletproof, so it tends to dovetail with my own anecdotal (read: scientifically useless) experience. One thing's for sure though: C&D will ding other cars for bland styling, but they give Hondas a free pass on it.

Did you read the 6 Mid size sedan comparo? With the base Sebring, Accord, Aura, Camry, Altima, and Optima? I found some of their comments and overall writing a bit absurd. When reviewing the Aura XE, they said that it got the lowest fuel economy. Well no d'uh, it has a V6 vs a 4 banger. Yet, they didn't attribute the lowest fuel economy was due to it being a V6. Although, I hope the reader would know that it has the lowest fuel economy because it is equipped with a V6 even if C&D didn't mention it. That one of the major complaints was with the trunk getting fingerprints fingerprints.... I mean come on. I know we all want to keep our cars looking nice. But, having fingerprints as a major negative for crying out loud.

Then when they got to the Accord, there writing style changed. It went from the professional writing of the other vehicles to almost gloating and bragging like. Yes, it won. But, it doesn't mean you can lose your professionalism over it..... Yes, Honda does make good cars. Before the new Civic, they were bland for my taste( Accord, old Civic) or ugly( Ridgeline, new CR-V). Of course looks are subjective so that is just my opinion. I do like the Accord Coupe concept that was at NAIAS. So the 2008 Accord looks promising.

 

[Draygin]

My argument has been consistent - Pointiac is just a re-brand of other GM cars. If GM wants Pontiac to be taken seriously by the motoring public, and not just GM fans, they need to make cars that are substantially different from the grocery-getters. That means doing more than adding body cladding and spoilers and tacking on racy names. They also need to stop resurrecting famous musclecar names and attaching them to turds like the current Impala.

I'm not just knocking GM for fun - in fact my biggest source of irritation is the fact that I think that GM has the potential and capability to make lots of great cars (and does make a few), but they're just too lazy to actually do it. They'd rather sit back on their SUV and truck profits than compete as agressively as they could in the tough compact car and midsize sedan markets.

As I have been saying, Pontiac has just been given the green light to compete with Chevy. First time in the history of GM they have been able to do it freely instead of behinde closed doors. I have given many examples and those who just don't like American cars will never like American cars. I have yet to be impressed with a so called performance car from Japan, but look at the future of Pontiac and what they have done in the last two years. They are leaving Chevy behind where two years ago it was Chevys goal to shut down most of GM.

Just because you don't like Pontiac doesn't make it a week brand. In fact GM builds the transmition for the Rolls and the same trany was used on BMW V12 prototypes since BMW could not build an automatic trany to withstand the engine.

 

[aloofman]

As I have been saying, Pontiac has just been given the green light to compete with Chevy. First time in the history of GM they have been able to do it freely instead of behinde closed doors. I have given many examples and those who just don't like American cars will never like American cars. I have yet to be impressed with a so called performance car from Japan, but look at the future of Pontiac and what they have done in the last two years. They are leaving Chevy behind where two years ago it was Chevys goal to shut down most of GM.

So you're saying that GM is now giving Pontiac the potential to finally be the performance brand it claimed to be for years?

By my count, Pontiac has exactly one sports car: the Solstice. And its clone is a Saturn.

Among its other vehicles are an SUV, a wagon, a couple of compacts and a couple of midsize sedans. None of these cars put up performance numbers for their class.

My point -- and it has been all along -- is that Pontiac claims to be a performance brand, but only existing Pontiac fans think it is. The general car-buying public does not. I would love for Pontiac to build a sports car that I could salivate over. It's not a matter of me disliking Pontiac. It's a matter of the current and recent Pontiac lineup.

 

[quagmire]

So you're saying that GM is now giving Pontiac the potential to finally be the performance brand it claimed to be for years?

By my count, Pontiac has exactly one sports car: the Solstice. And its clone is a Saturn.

Among its other vehicles are an SUV, a wagon, a couple of compacts and a couple of midsize sedans. None of these cars put up performance numbers for their class.

My point -- and it has been all along -- is that Pontiac claims to be a performance brand, but only existing Pontiac fans think it is. The general car-buying public does not. I would love for Pontiac to build a sports car that I could salivate over. It's not a matter of me disliking Pontiac. It's a matter of the current and recent Pontiac lineup.

And you expect GM to replace all of those cars all at once? It takes time when the decision is made to convert a whole brand to RWD. The only RWD platforms GM has that is viable for Pontiac's use is Zeta, Sigma, Kappa, and Y-Body. Pontiac is getting 2 Zeta's( G8 and GTO). Sigma won't happen. Too expensive for Pontiac's price range. Y-Body definitely won't happen. As well as being expensive, did you hear the fit 'Vette fans had when they gave the Y-Body to Cadillac to make the XLR? They will refuse to buy a 'Vette if it goes to Pontiac. So that leaves the G6 and G5( possibly could go on Kappa, but I doubt it unless GM wants the G5 to cost like $18K. GM already loses $10K on each Kappa sold) without a RWD platform. Holden though is said to be developing a mid size platform that could underpin the next G6.

As for the Torrent. It is going to GMC in the next gen. The Vibe is the hazy part. Not sure on its future.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

As I have been saying, Pontiac has just been given the green light to compete with Chevy. First time in the history of GM they have been able to do it freely instead of behinde closed doors.

I highly doubt that GM would want one of its "divisions" to compete with another. Pontiac should be competing against Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Volkswagen and possiby BMW/Mercedes for business. Unfortunately, they seem to be unable to expand their business beyond their existing base of brand-loyalty.

I have given many examples and those who just don't like American cars will never like American cars. I have yet to be impressed with a so called performance car from Japan, but look at the future of Pontiac and what they have done in the last two years. They are leaving Chevy behind where two years ago it was Chevys goal to shut down most of GM.

...and I guess some people who don't like Japnese cars will never like Japanese cars.

But it isn't that simple. America has produced many world-class automobiles, but if you look back you'll see that American car manufacturing today is a shadow of what it once was in terms of innovation, quality, and market penetration.

There are a number of American cars that have impressed me like the Corvette, the 'Vette engined Firebird, the Mustang SVT Cobra (with independent rear suspension), the SVT Contour and SVT Focus, the Caprice based Impala SS, the Dodge Neon ACR (or 1st-gen R/T), the Dodge Charger/Chrysler 300C...

...at the same time, there are a lot of Japanese and European cars that impress me as well. And no offence, but you are crazy if there isn't a single Japanese car that impresses you.

Just because you don't like Pontiac doesn't make it a week brand. In fact GM builds the transmition for the Rolls and the same trany was used on BMW V12 prototypes since BMW could not build an automatic trany to withstand the engine.

Chrysler engines are used (in a modified form) in Bristols as well. GM's transmissions may be strong, but Pontiac's image could be stronger. I think they have the potential to be a true performance brand, but right now they're not quite there.

 

[MacNut]

My biggest gripe and this goes to all the car makers is that they have gotten into a pattern of making every car look the same. There was a point where every Ford looked alike and every GM looked alike. The worst was when you were not able to tell the difference between a Mustang and Taurus and a Corvette from any other Chevy. Its like the designers just gave up and said, we don't care anymore about design. It has gotten better but they still need to do more to design more unique looking vehicles.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

That lack of uniqueness is the result of several factors:

1. Crash protection dictates certain basic layouts and proportions.

2. Platform/drivetrain sharing.

3. Sharing of "design DNA" elements between models, such as trademark grilles.

So you'll never see cars that look as radically different as you did 30 years ago. Still, anonymity is the worst enemy of today's cars.

 

[Swarmlord]

<snip> A WRX might not be as refined as a 335xi, but it's a LOT cheaper and faster too.

<snip>

I'm surprised that even more people haven't realized what a great deal the WRX is. I have the sportwagon version which serves as both sportscar and utility vehicle and it was relatively cheap.

The only thing tempting me from getting another is the bulging biceps of the new FJ Cruiser. It's going to be tough on me when it comes time to decide between the two.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The only thing tempting me from getting another is the bulging biceps of the new FJ Cruiser. It's going to be tough on me when it comes time to decide between the two.

I've kicked the tires on a new FJ Cruiser and they're a bit expensive I thought...I've never seen one within $4k of the base price, they were all pushing $28-30k. If I was going 4x4 I'd probably get a Tacoma instead (not that those are particularly cheap either).

 

[aloofman]

And you expect GM to replace all of those cars all at once?

Again, you miss my point. They're not a performance brand right now. That's what the issue was. They may be in the future if they really play their cards right, but "potential" is another way of saying you haven't done it yet.

 

[blitzkrieg79]

Just to correct Lord Blackladder, no way in hell is the Subaru WRX (0-60 around 5.5 sec.) faster than the new BMW 335 (0-60 around 4.8 sec) so there is some difference. STi is in the 335 league, it's still a bit cheaper than 335 but than again it's not as refined as 335, it's all the little details that make a BMW a BMW and separate it from most of the other car companies who try to imitate it :::cough::: Infiniti ::: cough::: 335 is a luxury sports sedan, STi is just a sports sedan (zero luxury). Add to that the fact that BMW offers 4 years of free maintenance service on it's cars these days whether it's an oil change or time to replace worn break pads.

I am a fan of motorsports and love the cars such as STi or EVO but if I had the money I would definately pick BMW over them all.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Just to correct Lord Blackladder, no way in hell is the Subaru WRX (0-60 around 5.5 sec.) faster than the new BMW 335 (0-60 around 4.8 sec) so there is some difference.

True, I should have said STi. The WRX competes more with the 328xi, and frankly the WRX compares favorably there, being lighter and cheaper. BMW has the brand image but the WRX is the real deal for a lot less.

STi is in the 335 league, it's still a bit cheaper than 335 but than again it's not as refined as 335, it's all the little details that make a BMW a BMW and separate it from most of the other car companies who try to imitate it :::cough::: Infiniti ::: cough::: 335 is a luxury sports sedan, STi is just a sports sedan (zero luxury). Add to that the fact that BMW offers 4 years of free maintenance service on it's cars these days whether it's an oil change or time to replace worn break pads.

A couple points:

-IMHO both the currrent 3 Series and WRX are ugly, so there's no winner on stlye.

-The WRX (base price ~$25k) is more comparable to the 328xi (base price $34k)

-The STi (base price ~$33k) is comparable to the 335Xi (base price a whopping ~$41k)

The Subaru is almost 9 THOUSAND DOLLARS cheaper in both cases. And that's just factoring the base MSRPs. It's is also lighter by a few hundred pounds, so I suspect it would more than hold its own on a road course agains the BMWs.

I am a fan of motorsports and love the cars such as STi or EVO but if I had the money I would definitely pick BMW over them all.

I tend to agree with you on that, but given the choice between these three with my $41k+:

1. A new Corvette

2. A 335xi

3. An Evo X plus 9 grand

The BMW would probably rank #3. It has the lowest power-to-weight ratio, is only a couple grand less than the Corvette and possibly the slowest on a road course.

I'm interested to see where the M3 ends up on the price scale if the 335xi is already well into the 40s.

 

[blitzkrieg79]

True, I should have said STi. The WRX competes more with the 328xi, and frankly the WRX compares favorably there, being lighter and cheaper. BMW has the brand image but the WRX is the real deal for a lot less.

Well, the luxury part has it's price which usually means adding more weight (3 series recompensates it a bit by great weight distribution, almost 49-51 front/back, thats great engineering; sometimes a car may be light but if it's not balanced well it won't drive well either). BMW may have the brand image but it also has a better fit and finish than a Subaru, again, it's the little things that add up.

A couple points:

-IMHO both the currrent 3 Series and WRX are ugly, so there's no winner on stlye.

-The WRX (base price ~$25k) is more comparable to the 328xi (base price $34k)

-The STi (base price ~$33k) is comparable to the 335Xi (base price a whopping ~$41k)

The Subaru is almost 9 THOUSAND DOLLARS cheaper in both cases. And that's just factoring the base MSRPs. It's is also lighter by a few hundred pounds, so I suspect it would more than hold its own on a road course agains the BMWs.

Different strokes for different folks. Actually the new BMW 3 series sedan is the best looking car in it's price range IMO. WRX on the other hand has never been pretty but that is not the point for those types of cars where function comes in front of aesthetics, what may look ugly to most people, I bet that in WRX or EVOs case is there for aerodynamic/performance reason.

As far as price goes, if performance is the only thing someone is looking for then a car such as STi or EVO offers the best bang for the buck. But if you want performance along with some luxury then you'll want to look somewhere else. STis and EVOs ride stiff, loud, not a car I would want for long trips or daily congested traffic commutes.

I tend to agree with you on that, but given the choice between these three with my $41k+:

1. A new Corvette

2. A 335xi

3. An Evo X plus 9 grand

The BMW would probably rank #3. It has the lowest power-to-weight ratio, is only a couple grand less than the Corvette and possibly the slowest on a road course.

I'm interested to see where the M3 ends up on the price scale if the 335xi is already well into the 40s.

I am a fan of multipurpose vehicles so a car such as Corvette is out (unless I would really hit it big in a lottery but then again I would buy an European exotic lol), I really like the 4 door performance sedans which offer Corvette-like performance while also allowing you to ride more comfortably with 4 of your friends as well as packing up groceries from a store in a decent size trunk.

Also, the new 335 engine rated at 300HP is highly underrated, few independent dyno-tests showed the car achieving 360HP, also, a car with 335 sedan weight and 300HP engine wouldn't launch a car in 4.8 seconds, but it does so the engine is much more powerful than advertised.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Well, the luxury part has it's price which usually means adding more weight (3 series recompensates it a bit by great weight distribution, almost 49-51 front/back, thats great engineering; sometimes a car may be light but if it's not balanced well it won't drive well either). BMW may have the brand image but it also has a better fit and finish than a Subaru, again, it's the little things that add up.

The luxury is nice, but not $9k nice for me. Especially considering that I might be able to afford an EVO/STi someday, but a new BMW is simply out of reach for a lot of the people shopping for a performance car.

Different strokes for different folks. Actually the new BMW 3 series sedan is the best looking car in it's price range IMO. WRX on the other hand has never been pretty but that is not the point for those types of cars where function comes in front of aesthetics, what may look ugly to most people, I bet that in WRX or EVOs case is there for aerodynamic/performance reason.

Bangle ruined BMW. But that's just personal opinion. Even with the toned-down looks of the 3 Series it's a step backwards from the last generation. The new 3-Series Coupe is the best looking of the bunch but they are all pretty anonymous.

The Evo looks pretty good, and the Subaru...well, I like it becuase it is fast and cheap, lets leave it at that. The BMW is a little faster, much more expensive, and not much (if any) better looking.

As far as price goes, if performance is the only thing someone is looking for then a car such as STi or EVO offers the best bang for the buck. But if you want performance along with some luxury then you'll want to look somewhere else. STis and EVOs ride stiff, loud, not a car I would want for long trips or daily congested traffic commutes.

I've spent my whole life driving cheap cars so far, so frankly the refinement argument is somewhat lost on me. I used to drive a Toyota pickup with no power steering, intermittent wipers or ABS, and a crappy bench seat. Yes, I've driven luxury cars here and there and been impressed by their quietness and solidity, but frankly I value performance over comfort (to a degree - I won't be ripping the seats and dash out to save weight!)So I'm used to a harsh ride, I just want a fast ride. A WRX or Evo would be the most luxurious car I've ever owned.

I am a fan of multipurpose vehicles so a car such as Corvette is out (unless I would really hit it big in a lottery but then again I would buy an European exotic lol), I really like the 4 door performance sedans which offer Corvette-like performance while also allowing you to ride more comfortably with 4 of your friends as well as packing up groceries from a store in a decent size trunk.

I too am a fan of sports sedans - they might not look as good as coupes but it's so very nice to have the ability to take 3 passengers and some luggage when neccesary.

I'm also a fan of the European sports sedans and hot hatches. I love the 335xi, it's just too expensive in the face of cheaper go-fast sedans. I'd love to own one, I just couldn't justify $41k for it.

Now the M5/M6 is a different story. If anything it's uglier than the 3 Series, and frighteningly expensive. But oh, the performance. BMW makes fantastic cars, but IMO they make the most sense on the upper end of the price scale.

Also, the new 335 engine rated at 300HP is highly underrated, few independent dyno-tests showed the car achieving 360HP, also, a car with 335 sedan weight and 300HP engine wouldn't launch a car in 4.8 seconds, but it does so the engine is much more powerful than advertised.

360 at the wheels, or the flywheel? I don't understand why they would underrate it by that much...they don't have a power limit to worry about like Nissan did with it's significantly underrated Skyline GTRs (which made 12%+ more power at the flywheel than officially quoted).

 

[quagmire]

It is rumored that the Twin Turbo DI Inline 6 is underrated. Some say it is 300/300 at the wheels, 350 HP at fly wheel, etc. But, we won't know until we see more dyno's on the 335i.

A little off topic... GM released 2006 operation and 4Q results. In 2006 GM lost $2 billion in 2006. A huge improvement over 2005's $10.5 billion loss and ~$10 billion less then what Ford lost in 2006. GM made $950 million in 4Q 2006. $770 million came from the sale of GMAC, but GM made $180 million excluding the sale of GMAC. So far so good GM. The turnaround plan is so far working. Now just for the UAW in September.

PS: It will help GM if you cut the execs paychecks and pension plan.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/14/gm-makes-a-buck-in-q4-2006/

 

[Lord Blackadder]

It is rumored that the Twin Turbo DI Inline 6 is underrated. Some say it is 300/300 at the wheels, 350 HP at fly wheel, etc. But, we won't know until we see more dyno's on the 335i.

I can see it making 350 at the flywheel and putting 300 on the ground, but if it was delivering 350 at the wheels they'd say so I think. Suffice to say it's got power.

PS: It will help GM if you cut the execs paychecks and pension plan.

Amen to that - the financial disparity between corporate executives and the rest of the working world is reaching unprecedented proportions...it's sickening to watch a struggling company bleed itself white while the execs flee with their massive golden parachutes.

 

[quagmire]

I can see it making 350 at the flywheel and putting 300 on the ground, but if it was delivering 350 at the wheels they'd say so I think. Suffice to say it's got power.

Yeah it has power. My dad and I test drove it back in October. Acceleration and handling was incredible. My dad is looking into a replacement for his 2002 BMW 330xi. My bro has it now and he is currently driving around the Aura. I think it will come down to the 335xi( hoping BMW will add xDrive to the 335) and the new CTS with the DI 3.6 V6 and AWD. As much as I like the CTS, I do feel the BMW is the better machine. We will have to drive them both to really determine which one is better.

Amen to that - the financial disparity between corporate executives and the rest of the working world is reaching unprecedented proportions...it's sickening to watch a struggling company bleed itself white while the execs flee with their massive golden parachutes.

Yeah, it isn't like Wagoner will go bankrupt making $900,000 a year and Lutz making $600,000 a year. But, most big American companies are at fault too.