Chicago Auto Show: 2008 Pontiac G8

[Draygin]

Someone remind me again why the Pontiac name still exists? (Or Buick, for that matter?) Does anyone besides domestic brand apologists think Pontiac is really a performance brand?

Solstice, GTO, G6. As far as Buick goes, Caddy with class not flash. Buick is the highest in customer satisfaction in GM last I heard. And as far as performance, Solstice and the GTO according to Motor Trend comparos would be worth buying three of the Solstice over the BMW or three GTOs over the Mercedes. In the late 80s the GTA was only outhandled by the Lamborgini and the Ferarri. Pontiac has in a nut shell told Chevy move aside were ready to compete with the world. They're done holding themselves back for Chevy.

Now ads can't show suicide because it is insensitive even though it was in a dream. .

Can you offend someone who has committed suicide? That's a joke I agree, you are either correct or incorrect. The Snickers add was Fn' funny. People need to grow a little skin. If it were a gay man and a gay woman the same people who were offended would find it funny. The idiot who said he felt it was funny but not for the intended reason is too stupid to realize he was ammuzed FOR the intended reason.

"""Obviously. But in the real world, I don't see how a large-displacement, OHV engine has to be more reliable than a smaller-displacement, OHC engine. """

Drive the two for a few years. Small displacement engines are notorious for burning up. They rev higher to get the same performance with the same or inferior alloys. There is more stress on less metal. It's not rocket science. You have x amount of matter doing x amount of work. Larger displacement can DISPLACE more wear and stress.

 

[GoCubsGo]

truly a work of art no doubt but the aerial should be a shark fin not that lame ass wire thing. details folks.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

"""Obviously. But in the real world, I don't see how a large-displacement, OHV engine has to be more reliable than a smaller-displacement, OHC engine. """

Drive the two for a few years. Small displacement engines are notorious for burning up. They rev higher to get the same performance with the same or inferior alloys. There is more stress on less metal. It's not rocket science. You have x amount of matter doing x amount of work. Larger displacement can DISPLACE more wear and stress.

I'm going to have to call you out on that one...while you are right, in theory, that a smaller, higher-revving engine is less reliable - the practical reality is that a modern small-displacement OHC engine will run just as long as a modern OHV engine.

The reliability myth dates to a time before engine internals could be forged or milled cheaply out of the high-quality steel and aluminum available today. OHV engines are plenty reliable - but so are OHC engines. Nowdays rust will claim a car before the engine dies anyway...unless it's Italian, in which case it will rust and the engine will break equally quickly.

Does anyone besides domestic brand apologists think Pontiac is really a performance brand?

Solstice, GTO, G6.

Well, the GTO is nice but it ain't a Pontiac...credit the Aussies, apparently they've shown us how to build a real musclecar instead of FWD V6 "sports sedans" with the exact same engines and 4-speed auto as every other GM sedan...

The Solstice seems pretty nice, but the G6 is only average...I thought the interior was not up to the same standard as the Altima, Accord or TSX. I drove one briefly and thought the suspension was ok, but the 4-speed auto was stupid (DOWNSHIFT! PLEASE!) and the steering was overboosted. The G6 would be a success in my mind if they made it AWD or RWD and tossed in the 260HP turbo I-4 from the Solstice GXP.

In fact, Pontiac needs to make all of their cars RWD or AWD to differentiate them from the millions of anonymous Buicks and Chevys out there using the same platform and drivetrain. A little sheetmetal and stiff suspension just isn't enough - but I will say it's an improvement over the Grand Am. The new engines put out competitive power numbers, which is good.

As far as Buick goes, Caddy with class not flash.

They are less flash, I'll give you that. But the average age of a Buick owner is...dead...and the ride is frighteningly floaty. Fine if your cruising along to get your pension check but any attempt at "handling" and you'll be crying "abandon ship!". They should come with lifeboats.

In the late 80s the GTA was only outhandled by the Lamborgini and the Ferarri. Pontiac has in a nut shell told Chevy move aside were ready to compete with the world. They're done holding themselves back for Chevy.

I like the GTA, but there are a lot of cars from the late '80s that could outhandle it. Still, the basic recipe was good - big engine, rear-drive, swoopy coupe styling...too bad we need the Aussies to do that for us these days.

 

[quagmire]

truly a work of art no doubt but the aerial should be a shark fin not that lame ass wire thing. details folks.

This is technically a concept. But, this is what the G8 will look like minus a few things( like the wheels). I am sure it will gain a shark fin. I don't think that wire can receive the Onstar and XM signal. The wire is the standard old AM/FM antenna.

PS: Rumors are that the G6 is going RWD in the next gen. So is the G5. The Torrent is going to GMC. Only issue is the Vibe. No word on its fate although the latest is it is still on. Also, the G6 now has the 3.6 DOHC V6 making 252 HP with GM's new FWD 6 speed auto in the GTP.

 

[joepunk]

A bit late in the comments here but I'll go ahead anyway.

Looking at the Pontiac G8 in first post it looks like there are two flared nostrils on the hood of the car.

 

[quagmire]

A bit late in the comments here but I'll go ahead anyway.

Looking at the Pontiac G8 in first post it looks like there are two flared nostrils on the hood of the car.

Yeah. they're called hood scoops. It has been a Pontiac tradition to have them. But, not sure if they will be carried over to the production vehicle.

 

[Draygin]

The reliability myth dates to a time before engine internals could be forged or milled cheaply out of the high-quality steel and aluminum available today. OHV engines are plenty reliable - but so are OHC engines. Nowdays rust will claim a car before the engine dies anyway...unless it's Italian, in which case it will rust and the engine will break equally quickly.

It's not a myth and your getting away from the point I was making to the other post. Larger displacement with the same metals will last longer. A "1/4 of the same metal will never hold as much as a "1. Yes the newer engines will last longer, but the larger displacement will do more work and last longer. If that were not the case they would put smaller engines in pickups and work trucks.

Well, the GTO is nice but it ain't a Pontiac...credit the Aussies, apparently they've shown us how to build a real musclecar instead of FWD V6 "sports sedans" with the exact same engines and 4-speed auto as every other GM sedan...

Pontiac brought the idea back. They did it while others talked about it. The Aussies weren't held back by Chevy and they were working on the Holden in conjunction with Pontiac. The last GTO was only to be a stepping stone. Now Chevy is taking the credit again with the Camaro. The first prototype on the platform came from Buick. Your view on the Buick will soon be changed as it was in the 80s with the GN.

The Solstice seems pretty nice, but the G6 is only average...I thought the interior was not up to the same standard as the Altima, Accord or TSX. I drove one briefly and thought the suspension was ok, but the 4-speed auto was stupid (DOWNSHIFT! PLEASE!) and the steering was overboosted. The G6 would be a success in my mind if they made it AWD or RWD and tossed in the 260HP turbo I-4 from the Solstice GXP.

Yes, the G6 is rather plain, but nice for what it is. The car mags were all over it as a step in the right direction for GM to shake off the cheap ass Chevy image. It was considered a step to compete on a global scale. The G6 is to get the same turbo four and a beefed V6.

In fact, Pontiac needs to make all of their cars RWD or AWD to differentiate them from the millions of anonymous Buicks and Chevys out there using the same platform and drivetrain. A little sheetmetal and stiff suspension just isn't enough - but I will say it's an improvement over the Grand Am. The new engines put out competitive power numbers, which is good.

Look at pontiacs plans for the future.

They are less flash, I'll give you that. But the average age of a Buick owner is...dead...and the ride is frighteningly floaty. Fine if your cruising along to get your pension check but any attempt at "handling" and you'll be crying "abandon ship!". They should come with lifeboats.

Look at Buicks future plans, but my point was Buick is around because it covers a market that may not be yours, but it has a very loyal market none the less. They are high quality.

I like the GTA, but there are a lot of cars from the late '80s that could outhandle it. Still, the basic recipe was good - big engine, rear-drive, swoopy coupe styling...too bad we need the Aussies to do that for us these days.

Not according to Motor trend and Car and Track. That's why I mentioned it. It was not my opinion. I was shocked to find out it far outhandled the Vette and the Porche. In fact nothing under $100 grand came close according to Car and Driver.

Does anyone besides domestic brand apologists think Pontiac is really a performance brand?

Check out these sites....

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...bnw=129&prev=/images?q=pontiac+daytona&gbv=2&

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...s?q=pontiac+daytona&gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en&sa=G

Or just google Pontiac Crwaford.

 

[aloofman]

Check out these sites....

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...bnw=129&prev=/images?q=pontiac+daytona&gbv=2&

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...s?q=pontiac+daytona&gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en&sa=G

Or just google Pontiac Crwaford.

Do NASCAR wins make you want to buy a Monte Carlo too? Give me a break. Race cars have almost nothing in common with production vehicles. Different production methods, different materials, different designs, and WAY different budgets. If race results were the ultimate indicator of car trends, we'd all be driving Audi diesels right now.

 

[blitzkrieg79]

Do NASCAR wins make you want to buy a Monte Carlo too? Give me a break. Race cars have almost nothing in common with production vehicles. Different production methods, different materials, different designs, and WAY different budgets. If race results were the ultimate indicator of car trends, we'd all be driving Audi diesels right now.

Car companies (excluding commercial/marketing reasons) use racing for research/studies, maybe not everything but actually more than few technologies for production cars are derived from race cars, especially suspensions and engine technology. Is the race bred Monte Carlo the same as the production type? Of course not, but it does offer a race car like performance and ride not found in many other production vehicles.

 

[aloofman]

Car companies (excluding commercial/marketing reasons) use racing for research/studies, maybe not everything but actually more than few technologies for production cars are derived from race cars, especially suspensions and engine technology. Is the race bred Monte Carlo the same as the production type? Of course not, but it does offer a race car like performance and ride not found in many other production vehicles.

It's not a matter of whether the technology of racing yields benefits. It's whether that translates to a performance brand. Is Ford a performance brand? Toyota? Subaru? All three have won various racing circuits many times, but the cars they sell to us are vary a lot. My point is that winning some races doesn't mean that people take their Pontiac passenger cars seriously as "performance" cars, especially on racing circuits that few Americans even follow.

My original point (quite a while ago) is that only someone who's already a GM fan really thinks of Pontiac as a performance brand. To everyone else it's the GM brand that features common parts with other nameplates, but with more aggressive styling. Porsche is a performance brand because everyone agrees that they sell sports cars. Pontiac sells sportier versions of GM's other cars.

 

[Counterfit]

Different production methods, different materials, different designs

That really depends on the series. Until the Charger came back, all Winston/Nextel Cup cars were pushrod, cast-iron V8s, with RWD and a tube frame. The cars they were supposedly based on were all V6 (someitmes supercharged), FWD, unibody sedans. However, WRC cars (and Pro-Rally/Rally America) are built off of production bodies. Granted, they strip out the interior and weld all the body seams, but Subaru sold the Impreza 22B, which was seam-welded. Same goes for most touring cars series.
And then there's the 911 GT1.

 

[Draygin]

You prove my point over and over.

It's not a matter of whether the technology of racing yields benefits. It's whether that translates to a performance brand. Is Ford a performance brand? Toyota? Subaru? All three have won various racing circuits many times, but the cars they sell to us are vary a lot. My point is that winning some races doesn't mean that people take their Pontiac passenger cars seriously as "performance" cars, especially on racing circuits that few Americans even follow.

My original point (quite a while ago) is that only someone who's already a GM fan really thinks of Pontiac as a performance brand. To everyone else it's the GM brand that features common parts with other nameplates, but with more aggressive styling. Porsche is a performance brand because everyone agrees that they sell sports cars. Pontiac sells sportier versions of GM's other cars.

You obviously know nothing about cars as I said. Motor Trend is rather fond of Pontiac saying that cars such as the Solstice (270 bhp out of a tiny 4) is a better buy and more fun to drive than BMW. It's also been said to completely outclass the Miata. The GTO was a better buy than the Mercedes and outperformed the Mercedes counterpart. Pontiac is different than other GMs that was my point. They are moving even further from Chevy over the next few years. Do some research pal.

By the way those picture were not of a racing circuit for Americans only. It's an international class. What are you, one of those tunner guys?

 

[Lord Blackadder]

You obviously know nothing about cars as I said. Motor Trend is rather fond of Pontiac saying that cars such as the Solstice (270 bhp out of a tiny 4) is a better buy and more fun to drive than BMW.

First off that's a subjective judgement, no matter who says it...Which BMW did they compare it to? Some BMWs are better than others. They're all ugly now, but the M sedans and coupes are massively capable.

It's also been said to completely outclass the Miata. The GTO was a better buy than the Mercedes and outperformed the Mercedes counterpart. Pontiac is different than other GMs that was my point. They are moving even further from Chevy over the next few years. Do some research pal.

Again, a magazine's pronouncement is not some sort of law...The GTO is a great car, but even if it trumped all comers you can hardly lay the credit to the suits in Detroit...the Aussies designed and built the car, it was their idea. So other than the GTO, which is a re-skinned Monaro any way you slice it, and the Solstice (a car that a I pray points the way forward for GM), Pontiac sells FWD V6 high-volume GM sedans re-skinned and remarketed as "perfomance" cars.

I'll be frank, I consider the Impala and Monte Carlo to be a joke. No cred except with the NASCAR crowd. Pontics are better, but only just.

I agree that race cars mean little these days - other than SCCA showroom stock and possibly Group N WRC there is no "stock" series any more. Race cars have little to do with what you drive, especially when you are looking at a particular model race car vs its stock version...And branded race car engines are handbuilt by race mechanics and have little resemblence to anything you could buy other than their basic layout.

 

[quagmire]

First off that's a subjective judgement, no matter who says it...Which BMW did they compare it to? Some BMWs are better than others. They're all ugly now, but the M sedans and coupes are massively capable.

Yeah, it is all subjective when preference comes into play. That is why I only use the performance part of the test since that is objective. They compared the Solstice GXP to the Z4 and another expensive roadster.

Again, a magazine's pronouncement is not some sort of law...The GTO is a great car, but even if it trumped all comers you can hardly lay the credit to the suits in Detroit...the Aussies designed and built the car, it was their idea. So other than the GTO, which is a re-skinned Monaro any way you slice it, and the Solstice (a car that a I pray points the way forward for GM), Pontiac sells FWD V6 high-volume GM sedans re-skinned and remarketed as "perfomance" cars.

Yeah, although GM owns Holden, it was Holden who engineered the GTO. And a fine job they did. They produced a fine sleeper. Unlike what many GTO fans say, it did pay respect to the nameplates heritage. The original GTO was a sleeper. Pontiac will continue be reskinned vehicles. But, instead of reskinned Chevy's, they'll be reskinned Holden's or at least be Holden based. Which is fine since Holden isn't sold in the US.

I'll be frank, I consider the Impala and Monte Carlo to be a joke. No cred except with the NASCAR crowd. Pontics are better, but only just.

Considering these nameplates past, yes the current iterations using the old W-Body platform are jokes. Luckily, the Monte Carlo is being killed for the '08 MY from what I hear and the Impala is going RWD in its next generation.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Yeah, it is all subjective when preference comes into play. That is why I only use the performance part of the test since that is objective. They compared the Solstice GXP to the Z4 and another expensive roadster.

I would definitely cross-shop a Solstice with a Z4, if I was into roadsters.

Considering these nameplates past, yes the current iterations using the old W-Body platform are jokes. Luckily, the Monte Carlo is being killed for the '08 MY from what I hear and the Impala is going RWD in its next generation.

That's exactly my point - nobody who looks at the Impalas and Monte Carlos of old could possibly take the current versions seriously. And GM still has not learned something every other car company figured out already - you can't do a V8 FWD car...it just does not work. Cadillac almost killed themselves with that concept, and now it shows up in that Impala monstrosity. GM, please, bring back RWD and people might take you seriously when you talk about performance! (Thank God they never fiddled with an FWD Corvette... )

 

[quagmire]

That's exactly my point - nobody who looks at the Impalas and Monte Carlos of old could possibly take the current versions seriously. And GM still has not learned something every other car company figured out already - you can't do a V8 FWD car...it just does not work. Cadillac almost killed themselves with that concept, and now it shows up in that Impala monstrosity. GM, please, bring back RWD and people might take you seriously when you talk about performance! (Thank God they never fiddled with an FWD Corvette... )

GM almost made the F-Body's( Camaro and Firebird) FWD. Thankfully, Saturn killed that idea..... The program was pretty far along too. There were prototypes of the FWD Camaro's built. Roger Smith has to be the worst CEO in GM's history. GM needs an Alfred Sloan of today.

 

[iGav]

I'd totally forgotten about this thread.

Actually, the "efficiency" of any engine is the ultimate goal - efficiency gets the maximum amount of power out of the fuel and has the smallest amount of parasitic loss due to friction, high rotating mass or inefficient combustion.

Yep. Didn't Max Mosley recently state that the current generation of Formula 1 engines are the most efficient engines in the world?

I must try and dig out that quote.

GM engineers knew the pushrod design's limitations and focused on lightening the engine to compensate for the fact that they needed bigger displacement to get the power they wanted.

I can only conclude that it's an American legacy-legend thing much like the puzzling preference for the archaic live-axle suspension that was eventually employed for the current Mustang, after all the old hot rodders and muscle car owners started throwing their toys out of the pram when it was suggested that the Mustang be based on something a bit more modern.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I can only conclude that it's an American legacy-legend thing much like the puzzling preference for the archaic live-axle suspension that was eventually employed for the current Mustang, after all the old hot rodders and muscle car owners started throwing their toys out of the pram when it was suggested that the Mustang be based on something a bit more modern.

I think it's ridiculous. Modern musclecars shouldn't have to handle like crap because a bunch of old farts say "that's the way we've always done it".

When they die off maybe we'll see a 'Stang with a fully independent suspension. Until then we're screwed.

 

[aloofman]

You obviously know nothing about cars as I said. Motor Trend is rather fond of Pontiac saying that cars such as the Solstice (270 bhp out of a tiny 4) is a better buy and more fun to drive than BMW. It's also been said to completely outclass the Miata. The GTO was a better buy than the Mercedes and outperformed the Mercedes counterpart. Pontiac is different than other GMs that was my point. They are moving even further from Chevy over the next few years. Do some research pal.

By the way those picture were not of a racing circuit for Americans only. It's an international class. What are you, one of those tunner guys?

Try not to resort to name-calling. It makes you look insecure.

Nobody I know that cares about cars reads Motor Trend. When you rotate your Car of the Year among the major automakers, you're not a serious journalist.

You're right, the Solstice was highly praised and still is. All the reviews at the time were hopeful that it was a sign that Pontiac was finally putting out sports cars again, a sure sign that they weren't. Then GM went and diluted that enthusiasm by giving Saturn a clone of it with almost the same performance numbers. That's what I mean: killing your claim to being a sports car maker by giving GM's other divisions the same car.

The GTO was also praised as leading Pontiac's rehabilitation. I know I was excited about it. I was even glad to see that they ditched the plastic cladding. But it's hard to call the GTO a major shot in Pontiac's arm when it sold so poorly that they no longer sell it in the U.S. If your good sports car doesn't sell, then you're not known for your sports cars.

And finally, I never said the pics were of an American circuit. I said that it doesn't have a high profile in the U.S. Not that this means the racing isn't good, just that victories there don't give Pontiac much publicity.

 

[quagmire]

You're right, the Solstice was highly praised and still is. All the reviews at the time were hopeful that it was a sign that Pontiac was finally putting out sports cars again, a sure sign that they weren't. Then GM went and diluted that enthusiasm by giving Saturn a clone of it with almost the same performance numbers. That's what I mean: killing your claim to being a sports car maker by giving GM's other divisions the same car.

Lets look at Toyota then. The Camry and ES350 are very similar. Same platform, engine, trans, and a more luxurious interior. Of course a few tweaks here and there with the other components. But, they are very well differentiated in design. Could the Kappa twins be more differentiated? Yes, but I don't think many people are going to confuse the Sky with the Solstice. The design is overall different. With the Solstice being curvy appealing to women and the Sky being the aggressive looking of the twins. They also share tranny, engine, and a few tweaks to the other components. As I said, the Kappa twins could be more differentiated especially when looking at the Camry and ES350.

The GTO was also praised as leading Pontiac's rehabilitation. I know I was excited about it. I was even glad to see that they ditched the plastic cladding. But it's hard to call the GTO a major shot in Pontiac's arm when it sold so poorly that they no longer sell it in the U.S. If your good sports car doesn't sell, then you're not known for your sports cars.

Weak argument. It didn't sell well due to being bland looking like a 90's Grand Prix, high price, and the GTO fans blasted it for not being true to its heritage( which is wrong as the original GTO was a sleeper as well and not as big of a reason as the price and design).

 

[aloofman]

Lets look at Toyota then. The Camry and ES350 are very similar. Same platform, engine, trans, and a more luxurious interior. Of course a few tweaks here and there with the other components. But, they are very well differentiated in design. Could the Kappa twins be more differentiated? Yes, but I don't think many people are going to confuse the Sky with the Solstice. The design is overall different. With the Solstice being curvy appealing to women and the Sky being the aggressive looking of the twins. They also share tranny, engine, and a few tweaks to the other components. As I said, the Kappa twins could be more differentiated especially when looking at the Camry and ES350.

Like we've covered in this thread before, a lot of it is about perception. Nissan has managed to differentiate the 350Z and the Infiniti G35 mostly because Infiniti has been established as a luxury brand. Toyota has managed the same thing with Lexus, even though, as you said, they're also clones. I'm saying that Toyota, right now, is doing a better job of branding Lexus as a luxury car than GM is at making Pontiac a sports car division.

Your Solstice/Sky comparison makes my point, I think. Since most sports cars are bought by men, why make the Pontiac the curvy, female-friendly car? Wouldn't you want your aggressive-looking sports car to be a Pontiac and the cute one to be a Saturn? This is what I mean by GM screwing up their branding. I want GM to be better at this, but I just don't see it right now.

Weak argument. It didn't sell well due to being bland looking like a 90's Grand Prix, high price, and the GTO fans blasted it for not being true to its heritage( which is wrong as the original GTO was a sleeper as well and not as big of a reason as the price and design).

OK then, how much of a sports car maker can you be if you can't sell your best muscle car because it looks lame? I was rooting for the GTO, I really was. If only to keep Ford from getting complacent about the Mustang, I wanted GM to be in the ponycar game.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

OK then, how much of a sports car maker can you be if you can't sell your best muscle car because it looks lame? I was rooting for the GTO, I really was. If only to keep Ford from getting complacent about the Mustang, I wanted GM to be in the ponycar game.

I really don't understand why the GTO didn't sell - it had all the right features...Corvette engine, RWD. Sure, it looked a bit like the last-gen Grand Prix, but that wasn't a bad looking car. Only posers would turn down a performance car based on style. The WRX is an ugly car, but it sells because it's fast and reasonably priced.

 

[quagmire]

Like we've covered in this thread before, a lot of it is about perception. Nissan has managed to differentiate the 350Z and the Infiniti G35 mostly because Infiniti has been established as a luxury brand. Toyota has managed the same thing with Lexus, even though, as you said, they're also clones. I'm saying that Toyota, right now, is doing a better job of branding Lexus as a luxury car than GM is at making Pontiac a sports car division.

Your Solstice/Sky comparison makes my point, I think. Since most sports cars are bought by men, why make the Pontiac the curvy, female-friendly car? Wouldn't you want your aggressive-looking sports car to be a Pontiac and the cute one to be a Saturn? This is what I mean by GM screwing up their branding. I want GM to be better at this, but I just don't see it right now.

Yes, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan( besides their SUV's. The FX and QX aren't differentiated well) have done great jobs differentiating their vehicles. Congrats to them. And yes again, perception is everything these days. Perception of GM is crap and Toyota is reliable vehicles. Even though in reality GM has improved greatly in quality and Toyota has slipped a bit.

Believe it or not, women these days do play a huge role in car buying. That is why the Solstice is curvy. It attracts women as well as men. Meaning Pontiac has a broader range of customers.

OK then, how much of a sports car maker can you be if you can't sell your best muscle car because it looks lame? I was rooting for the GTO, I really was. If only to keep Ford from getting complacent about the Mustang, I wanted GM to be in the ponycar game.

So what if the next M5 was ugly and doesn't sell well? Does that mean BMW has lost its performance image with the M series? The current lineup and perception of Pontiac isn't what GM wants it to be. But, the product line in the future has high hopes for changing that perception. The G6 and G5 look like they will be going RWD. The Torrent is going to GMC( even though I don't see why Pontiac can't have a sports SUV since BMW has the X5, Porsche has the Cayenne, etc). Of course you now have the G8. Which won't go to another brand. Yes, other brands will use the same Zeta platform, but hopefully they will be more differentiated.

 

[aloofman]

I really don't understand why the GTO didn't sell - it had all the right features...Corvette engine, RWD. Sure, it looked a bit like the last-gen Grand Prix, but that wasn't a bad looking car. Only posers would turn down a performance car based on style. The WRX is an ugly car, but it sells because it's fast and reasonably priced.

Yeah, all I can think is that their main customers were the baby boomers who were specifically nostalgic for the old GTOs, but it didn't resonate with them somehow. Since the Mustang sells very well, the muscle car market would seem to be big enough to accommodate a GTO too. No matter what the trade mags or enthusiasts want, it's the car-buying masses that choose what succeeds.

So what if the next M5 was ugly and doesn't sell well? Does that mean BMW has lost its performance image with the M series?

No, it doesn't, the same way the successful Solstice doesn't make up for years of Pontiac complacency. As you said, GM quality has gotten a lot better, but it takes a while for car buyers to perceive that, and for a reputation to change. It took a long, long time for Honda and Toyota to be widely seen as quality vehicles instead of crappy little Japanese cars. They made good cars before most people realized it. It will take a while for people to realize that GM makes better cars again, especially with the Korean makers making big strides in a fairly short period of time. People have high quality standards now and the competition is just so tough.

 

[quagmire]

No, it doesn't, the same way the successful Solstice doesn't make up for years of Pontiac complacency. As you said, GM quality has gotten a lot better, but it takes a while for car buyers to perceive that, and for a reputation to change. It took a long, long time for Honda and Toyota to be widely seen as quality vehicles instead of crappy little Japanese cars. They made good cars before most people realized it. It will take a while for people to realize that GM makes better cars again, especially with the Korean makers making big strides in a fairly short period of time. People have high quality standards now and the competition is just so tough.

Yes, you're right again. The Solstice doesn't make up for Pontiac's complacency. The Koreans confuse me though. It was only a few years ago the Koreans made POS vehicles. But, now that they make quality vehicles, perception has changed fast for the Koreans, yet not for GM. Maybe because GM is a lot bigger then the Korean companies and GM screwed the customer over more then the Koreans did.