Class Action Lawsuit Against Apple for Offering Refurbished Replacement Devices Under AppleCare Moves Forward

[AFDoc]

I'm not surprised apple is nickel and diming customers

Lol you win an award.... can't say for what because the MR police will smack my hands.....

Apple has one of the best customer support chains in place. Apple is in no way Nickel and Diming anyone.
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equivalent to new != new

you left off a big part of the statement in the paperwork... "equivalent to new in performance and reliability"

Kinda changes things and makes your argument moot.
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I agree with this. If you're paying an extra, you should get a new phone, not a used one. How much is the phone + AppleCare? $1500 just to get a used device is a rip off in my opinion.

So if you pay for a warranty on any product you expect a brand new replacement? Brand new car, brand new washer, brand new stove..... your thinking is silly at best.

 

[konqerror]

This is so disgusting. From an environmental perspective forcing a company to use all new parts is simply unconscionable.

They are free to sell the refurbs as refurbs.

To take your "disgust" further, note that some companies like IBM used to sell new products with potentially refurbished parts. You should advocate that new products should be banned by the government and laws prohibiting this repealed: everything is a refurb.

 

[Donnation]

I always buy from Apple's refurbished site as those items are essentially brand new. They have no scratches or marks and I have never, ever gotten a bad device.

That being said, there was one time that I had to get an iPhone replaced under Apple Care. It was a young kid doing the replacement and the one they brought out had dust under the screen. He tried to play it off as "normal" and that there was a tolerance level of dust and this fell within it. I asked to speak with the manager and told him to bring me a device that was brand new, or at least looked brand new. Within a few minutes they brought me one that was perfect.

So I do think that there have been times that Apple has tried to replace things with less than perfect devices.

 

[calzon65]

Getting a replacement that is Apple "certified" (whatever certified means) is not such a bad deal as long as Apple is not representing the replacement is new. Saying a replacement is new is misleading.

What really grinds me is how hard Apple works against third-part repair facilities, that is the real travesty.

 

[clutchm3]

I replaced one of my XS Max and the product name/code changed. That was a bit strange...I guess different numbers for replacements?

 

[Val-kyrie]

Product and component failures follow what's called a "bathtub curve." Over a large population of devices there are statistically the most failures at the beginning and at the end of life period - think a graph shaped like a bathtub. In between these periods of high failure rates, failures are at their lowest frequency and are mostly random.

Refurb units should be a bit further past their early bathtub curve failures, so one could make the argument that a refurbished product is actually more reliable than a new product.

Not when it came to the replacements I received for my faulty iPhone(s) 6+. I went through 4 phones and each replacement was worse than the one that preceded it. One was even bent when I received it.

This is so disgusting. From an environmental perspective forcing a company to use all new parts is simply unconscionable. Second, they have a vested interest in making sure my second experience is better than the first if the first resulted in a failure. I believe Apple tests the crap out of those replacement units. I will endure a second failure to make sure perfectly good reconditioned parts or whatever stay in use. Disgusting.

Not necessarily. Apple has a vested interest in getting the consumer past the warranty. That is all.

Don't believe me... check on those faulty keyboards, flex cables, etc. Faulty design replaced with faulty design. Apple does not repair. Apple replaces.

 

[kingax1]

I was actually upset they replaced my iphone. I dont care if they fixed it and took a month and replaced the parts with used parts, but its never the same phone my wife bought for me for Christmas.

They should at least make it an option to wait longer to have your stuff fixed, rather than them fixing it and giving it to someone else for their replacement.

My phone also was in better condition (almost pristine) than the refurb which at close glance has mild scratches on back and noticeable wear around the metal frame.

 

[ikramerica]

1/2 the Apple products I have bought since 2003 have been refurbished. They carry the same warranty and are more likely to be problem free in many cases because they have been refurbished. I just bought a refurb 8+256 on 11 launch day for $600. My MBP is refurb. So was my previous. And my previous.

Within 30 days you have right to ask for new replacement. After 30 days you are entitled to repair or replacement with an “as new” unit. It might be new, it but be refurb.

Refurbished can also mean returned with in 30 days of purchase. Apple completely resets and repackages them. Many manufacturers just sell them as “open box.”

 

[CarlJ]

What part of “equivalent to new replacements” was not understood...

The part where some people thought they could make a lot of money off this. Sigh.

 

[ikramerica]

I was actually upset they replaced my iphone. I dont care if they fixed it and took a month and replaced the parts with used parts, but its never the same phone my wife bought for me for Christmas.

They should at least make it an option to wait longer to have your stuff fixed, rather than them fixing it and giving it to someone else for their replacement.

My phone also was in better condition (almost pristine) than the refurb which at close glance has mild scratches on back and noticeable wear around the metal frame.

You should have refused it and demanded a pristine one. iOS devices are supposed to have a new outer shell and no screen scratches.

“You will receive a “like new” device with genuine Apple replacement parts (as needed) that has been thoroughly cleaned and inspected. Refurbished iOS devices will come with new battery and outer shell.”

 

[Tanbam]

I’ve got a pretty big family that uses a lot of Apple devices, so I’ve purchased quite a few refurbished devices. Of maybe ten refurbished units that I’ve gotten, three of them had issues. One of the problems with refurbished devices is that sometimes there are weird faults that cannot be reproduced during testing and can get shipped out as passing.

One of the refurb phones that I got had a big speck of dust under the screen, so I had it replaced pretty easily. Another one had a flaky GPS that sometimes crapped out. It worked most of the time, but every once in a while, it would just stop working. Of course, it never malfunctioned at the Genius Bar, so my daughter just lived with it like that until she got a new phone later on.

I bought a refurbished iPad Pro, and sometimes the touchscreen would become unresponsive. There were some things that would make it happen more often, usually holding it vertically while charging, like using it while I was laying in bed. Hitting the sleep button and waking it up would generally get it working again, but the pencil always worked. I got it swapped out under warranty just before it expired, but now I’m in the habit of using the "stylus” with my probably refurbished, working perfectly, replacement.

I don’t have any problem getting a refurbished unit for a warranty replacement, as long as it’s fully functional and looks new. I’d definitely be on the lookout for odd, intermittent faults, though.

 

[Chazz08]

Not all the time. Ive received replacements with scratched screens, former iCloud still logged in bc they never wiped the old phone.

Then that's not from Apple. In order for a phone to be taken in, it HAS to have Find My iPhone turned off. Systematically, it is impossible for them to take a trade in from a phone with FMI still turned on. Same with Verizon, as I used to work there. As for the other carriers and Asurion, I can't say. I do know Asurion's phones are pretty much horrible. At least in my experience getting a replacement from them. Apple's is by far superior.
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I'm guessing this might be the difference. I sure haven't been able to tell any of my refurbs apart from a brand new one aside from the box. But, I think the more thorough testing means you're more likely to get a failure that 'fell through the cracks' on the new ones, whereas it would probably be caught on the refurb.



I'm not sure I'd call the discount steep, but there is a bit of a discount, which is a nice bonus. I think they discount them to move them out, as a lot of people seem to think new is somehow better. I suppose one could say the discount is more a marketing thing.

I'm not sure if you've ever bought one (I'm guessing not), but could you explain how they aren't equivalent? As I said above, I sure can't tell any difference.

Yeah, $50-$100 off is not a steep discount.... His logic isn't sound with that statement. haha. Why would they sell it for the same price?

 

[randyhudson]

I got a refurbed iPad Pro and the camera and LED stopped working after a few months.

 

[ATC]

I always buy from Apple's refurbished site as those items are essentially brand new. They have no scratches or marks and I have never, ever gotten a bad device.

That being said, there was one time that I had to get an iPhone replaced under Apple Care. It was a young kid doing the replacement and the one they brought out had dust under the screen. He tried to play it off as "normal" and that there was a tolerance level of dust and this fell within it. I asked to speak with the manager and told him to bring me a device that was brand new, or at least looked brand new. Within a few minutes they brought me one that was perfect.

So I do think that there have been times that Apple has tried to replace things with less than perfect devices.

I think part of the issue is that the quality of Apple's replacements can vary wildly. I've had numerous iPhones replaced through AppleCare over the years and it was completely random whether I got a perfect unit or one that's visibly trash and should never have passed inspection.

One time I got an iPhone 5 replacement that was so bad, looked like it was dragged on gravel it had so many scratches and dents that I was shocked taking it out of the box. Thankfully Apple replaced it with a good one right away - they always took care of me when I brought issues to their attention.

Hopefully if nothing else, maybe Apple will tighten up QA on their replacement units.

 

[konqerror]

Refurb units should be a bit further past their early bathtub curve failures, so one could make the argument that a refurbished product is actually more reliable than a new product.

There's a hole in your logic. That logic may be true if the refurb units were all buyer's remorse returns. However, many refurb units were returned due to faults and damage. Those units are known to have failed, so you have to consider the possibility of faulty repair and faulty diagnostics (an intermittent fault is not found and the defective unit is sent out).

In other words, by its very nature, the initial population of refurbs have far more defects than production models and there is no guarantee, as you are implying with the bathtub curve, that the repair process can bring this value down.

 

[macmyworld]

I believe the section of this lawsuit where the plaintiffs define "New" and "Refurbished" is what's going to eat them alive. Apple's wording of "equivalent to new replacements" is what will save them in this lawsuit. Apple's definition of "equivalent to new replacements" means Apple can take a refurbished product, change out all the parts that need replacing with "new parts" and use that product under their definition. This lawsuit is frivolous. The only way I can see this lawsuit carrying any weight is if the products they received as replacements exploded while they were taking selfies next to their Avocado Toast or if Apple refused to fix their replacement product if it was having problems.

Agreed. Apple lawyers are not stupid and reading the language is pretty obvious. The lawsuit will lose due to the language. I’m really surprised the judge let this through.

Not saying I agree with how Apple handled this, but again. The language is clear..

 

[SchmeeX]

Interesting, considering refurbished products sold via the Apple store on line come at a steep discount.

Logic stands to reason that if refurbished were truly equivalent to new they wouldn’t be discounted...

...and that concludes this session of armchair lawyering.

An absolute atomic 10% discount on refurbished products. They should be ashamed. /s
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I treat phones like toothbrush or underwear. Always new and never used/refurb. You never know if a phone has taken a dive in a fully loaded crapper and I don't expect hazmat level cleaning from Apple after watching repair videos and condition of Apple refurbs inside or any company for that fact.

I believe all refurbished units are required to have a new screen and enclosure.

 

[AndrewR23]

Then that's not from Apple. In order for a phone to be taken in, it HAS to have Find My iPhone turned off. Systematically, it is impossible for them to take a trade in from a phone with FMI still turned on. Same with Verizon, as I used to work there. As for the other carriers and Asurion, I can't say. I do know Asurion's phones are pretty much horrible. At least in my experience getting a replacement from them. Apple's is by far superior.
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Yeah, $50-$100 off is not a steep discount.... His logic isn't sound with that statement. haha. Why would they sell it for the same price?

It was from Apple. In store replacement. White box. 5S. 2013. Genius was as dumbfounded as I was. Got a different one and was on my way.

 

[Kabeyun]

It’s as though the plaintiffs never bothered to read the warranty fine print. Not that that ever stopped a lawyer from trying to strike pay dirt.

And people posting here should learn the differences between 1. new, 2. refurbished, 3. remanufactured, and 4. used. Apple’s warranty promises you’ll get 1, 2, or 3 (i.e. “new or equivalent to new in performance and reliability”). You’re not getting a used anything, so calm down. And if it looks new, performs as new, lasts as new, and warrants as new, who cares? Everything else is psychology, so I suggest redirecting the outrage du jour to something that matters.

 

[Amazing Iceman]

This is a Class Action Lawsuit against Apple that I agree on.
Throughout the years I had several iPads replaced under AppleCare, and until the iPad Air 2, the display on the replacement device had a different color temperature (warmer), lower brightness and it seemed of inferior quality.
Apple denied it, but I could see the difference side to side, between a cool and white background vs. a yellowish background.

 

[SteveW928]

... Apple is in no way Nickel and Diming anyone. ...

No, they are premium, they $5 and $10 us, hehe.

I think part of the issue is that the quality of Apple's replacements can vary wildly. I've had numerous iPhones replaced through AppleCare over the years and it was completely random whether I got a perfect unit or one that's visibly trash and should never have passed inspection.

Hmm, I wonder if it is different under AppleCare or at the stores, than when you just order a refurb from the site? As mentioned above, I've never been able to tell any difference from a brand new device.

There's a hole in your logic. That logic may be true if the refurb units were all buyer's remorse returns. However, many refurb units were returned due to faults and damage. Those units are known to have failed, so you have to consider the possibility of faulty repair and faulty diagnostics (an intermittent fault is not found and the defective unit is sent out).

In other words, by its very nature, the initial population of refurbs have far more defects than production models and there is no guarantee, as you are implying with the bathtub curve, that the repair process can bring this value down.

That makes sense, except I'm guessing refurb devices undergo WAY more testing than the new ones do. But, yes, the input side should have more bad units for refurb, for sure (or at least one would hope).

 

[Terrinb]

I agree with this. If you're paying an extra, you should get a new phone, not a used one. How much is the phone + AppleCare? $1500 just to get a used device is a rip off in my opinion.

Then don't buy the phone. Apple isn't misleading people about the warranty or what Apple care provides. Further, if Apple couldn't operate this way, the cost for Apple Care would go way up.

 

[John.B]

Prediction:
Superyachts for each of the lawyers.
$2 vouchers toward new iPhone purchases for the class members.

 

[macfacts]

I believe the section of this lawsuit where the plaintiffs define "New" and "Refurbished" is what's going to eat them alive. Apple's wording of "equivalent to new replacements" is what will save them in this lawsuit. Apple's definition of "equivalent to new replacements" means Apple can take a refurbished product, change out all the parts that need replacing with "new parts" and use that product under their definition. This lawsuit is frivolous. The only way I can see this lawsuit carrying any weight is if the products they received as replacements exploded while they were taking selfies next to their Avocado Toast or if Apple refused to fix their replacement product if it was having problems.

A jury trial will see those as weasel words.

 

[redpandadev]

I was actually upset they replaced my iphone. I dont care if they fixed it and took a month and replaced the parts with used parts, but its never the same phone my wife bought for me for Christmas.

They should at least make it an option to wait longer to have your stuff fixed, rather than them fixing it and giving it to someone else for their replacement.

My phone also was in better condition (almost pristine) than the refurb which at close glance has mild scratches on back and noticeable wear around the metal frame.

They certainly have the option to repair it. If it’s not something they can do in-house they can send it out to a repair center. I’ve had this done. Also, if you really did receive a replacement that had noticeable wear, tell them about it so they can replace it again. That isn’t normal or expected. You’d have a tough case if you left the store with it, however. They want to help you, and may even believe you, but it’s a rather unbelievable when they’ve replaced hundreds of phone a week for years and years and never seen a single one with cosmetic damage out of the box. Unless we’re talking slate gray iPhone 5 in which case just about all of them (including literally new) have scratches out of the box.