Confederate Flag Avatars: Time to say Goodbye

[dotnet]

Censorship is a poor idea and usually ends up giving whatever you tried to censor a bigger stage.

I don't care if you want to associate yourself with symbols of oppression, idiocy or religion. You can wear a dunces hat or walk the street with your tackle hanging out – it's not going to offend me, but it will tell me a lot about you.

 

[Blue Velvet]

OK, now I feel I have to weigh in again here, because there’s so much BS being flung about:

Dismissing this issue as about people being ‘offended’, is a cute rote trick by conservatives to dismiss the importance of the issue (especialy to coloured people) and in many cases, provide false equivalence between liberal priorities that do little harm (gay marriage, for instance, that clearly offend social conservatives). ‘Oh, people are just offended’, they say. Like being offended over the colour purple as someone said upthread or that the younger generation are trophy kids. Defend your position on the merits of the topic, not how you’re still butthurt over something else that happened months ago or that this is a result of European thinking. C’mon, your argumentation sucks. Step it up a gear and stop whining over split milk.

The very real problem about being permitted to disseminate textual or symbolic messages strongly associated with white supremacy is:

It’s a symbol of genuine hate. White supremacy has killed and damaged the lives of millions of people in the United States. It continues to do so. Implicit endorsement of such symbology runs against MacRumors’ stated mission and business strategy and its audiences.

Those who cannot seem to wrap their heads this get have no idea about running a business. If you disagree with this, try starting one or more threads anywhere on the forums about c0Ons or anything close. It will be an instructive experience.

Someone upthread said: “It’s not like Nazi Germany and the ovens blah blah.” More crappy reasoning. Let’s unpack this glib statement.

• The population of the Confederacy at the outbreak of the war was around 9m, with an estimated 750,000 slaves. That represents just over 8% of the population. Their prime value was as labour.

• Nazi Germany had a population of 90m. They also absorbed millions more by expansion. My father who lived in Hollland as a child in the early 40s, saw his neighbours taken away. The Nazis had no use for the Jewish, Gypsy and Gay population, except to strip them of their wealth, set them to work in prison camps, kill the weakest or the most ‘deviant’. They did this in the context of a highly industrialised society, decades after the principles of mass production were known. If we take the oft-cited 6m Jews, just based on German population at the time, that’s a smaller proportion. America has never addressed reconciliation; instead it’s brushed its crimes against humanity under the carpet, because conservatives and the white majority have been fed a line of BS for generations. Your little property in the South or the inherited wealth that you may have, the privilege you now have, has mostly like been built on the broken bones of the native population or the profits of slavery.

As for those won’t read long posts, perhaps you should: you might learn something new, instead of blurting out only what you know already.

As Ta-Nahesi Coates says: In America, it is traditional to destroy the black body — it is heritage. For those who can’t be swayed, I know you won’t read it (it’s too long TLDR LOL DERP). That’s OK. But for those who think of themselves as thoughtful conservatives, it could be useful in understanding what lies behind the thoughts of the substantial majority of the black population.

Just on a personal note about ignoring forum members, political content and so on, a few years ago I became a bit obsessed about one particular forum member and the sheer quantity of fringe BS he was shovelling onto this forum. One fringe position was over-turning the Civil Rights Act (thank you grade A dick, Rand Paul.) But he was eventually banned and PRSI policy was changed as a result, but it took its toll. His mini-mes also did what they could to brief against me. I even had the privilege of pretty insulting threads being created about me, because the men-children of this forum couldn’t handle some smack-downs and tough love. I’m also tagged on Urban Dictionary along with Doctor Q, a fantastic honour.

As it’s said, ‘Men are afraid that women will laugh at them.’

As a moderator though, I felt I could’t ignore anyone’s content, just to keep tabs on people’s stuff. I still don’t have anyone on my ignore list. However, personally I don’t find it difficult to ignore posts. I just occasionally pop by and if I see something a bit whack, I’ll report it. Doing otherwise leads to a life and mind of anxiety and general un-chilledness.

So, my advice to you is this; don’t become too wound up by individual forum members, don’t reply or even set up poorly-designed online polls that only serve to inflame opinion and initiate a stream of reactionary nonsense, because people that care strongly about something will respond. Those who agree with you but are a bit ‘meh’, will not respond. It’s best to report something anonymously with a solid reason for doing so, you may not always get a reply, but it will be read and it may spark a mod discussion. Personally, I think it's foolish to throw this back to community. There's little clear reasoned arguments from the right in these discussions, and those they put forward are shot through with holes.

Let them have their petty moment in the sun. They’re facing an irresistible tide of public opinion and demographic change in the long run, and these kind of small gestures of defiance really show how weak they. They are in retreat. Take pity or take amusement… or show them the mercy that they would show if the tables were turned. It's an entertaining way to pass a short time PRSI, as long as you don't overdo it.

Your crappy flag and bankrupt 'lost cause' is a joke. The South will not rise again.

 

[haxrnick]

OK, now I feel I have to weigh in again here, because there’s so much BS being flung about:

Dismissing this issue as about people being ‘offended’, is a cute rote trick by conservatives to dismiss the importance of the issue (especialy to coloured people) and in many cases, provide false equivalence between liberal priorities that do little harm (gay marriage, for instance, that clearly offend social conservatives). ‘Oh, people are just offended’, they say. Like being offended over the colour purple as someone said upthread or that the younger generation are trophy kids. Defend your position on the merits of the topic, not how you’re still butthurt over something else that happened months ago or that this is a result of European thinking. C’mon, your argumentation sucks. Step it up a gear and stop whining over split milk.

The very real problem about being permitted to disseminate textual or symbolic messages strongly associated with white supremacy is:

It’s a symbol of genuine hate. White supremacy has killed and damaged the lives of millions of people in the United States. It continues to do so. Implicit endorsement of such symbology runs against MacRumors’ stated mission and business strategy and its audiences.

Those who cannot seem to wrap their heads this get have no idea about running a business. If you disagree with this, try starting one or more threads anywhere on the forums about c0Ons or anything close. It will be an instructive experience.

Someone upthread said: “It’s not like Nazi Germany and the ovens blah blah.” More crappy reasoning. Let’s unpack this glib statement.

• The population of the Confederacy at the outbreak of the war was around 9m, with an estimated 750,000 slaves. That represents just over 8% of the population. Their prime value was as labour.

• Nazi Germany had a population of 90m. They also absorbed millions more by expansion. My father who lived in Hollland as a child in the early 40s, saw his neighbours taken away. The Nazis had no use for the Jewish, Gypsy and Gay population, except to strip them of their wealth, set them to work in prison camps, kill the weakest or the most ‘deviant’. They did this in the context of a highly industrialised society, decades after the principles of mass production were known. If we take the oft-cited 6m Jews, just based on German population at the time, that’s a smaller proportion. America has never addressed reconciliation; instead it’s brushed its crimes against humanity under the carpet, because conservatives and the white majority have been fed a line of BS for generations. Your little property in the South or the inherited wealth that you may have, the privilege you now have, has mostly like been built on the broken bones of the native population or the profits of slavery.

As for those won’t read long posts, perhaps you should: you might learn something new, instead of blurting out only what you know already.

As Ta-Nahesi Coates says: In America, it is traditional to destroy the black body — it is heritage. For those who can’t be swayed, I know you won’t read it (it’s too long TLDR LOL DERP). That’s OK. But for those who think of themselves as thoughtful conservatives, it could be useful in understanding what lies behind the thoughts of the substantial majority of the black population.

Just on a personal note about ignoring forum members, political content and so on, a few years ago I became a bit obsessed about one particular forum member and the sheer quantity of fringe BS he was shovelling onto this forum. One fringe position was over-turning the Civil Rights Act (thank you grade A dick, Rand Paul.) But he was eventually banned and PRSI policy was changed as a result, but it took its toll. His mini-mes also did what they could to brief against me. I even had the privilege of pretty insulting threads being created about me, because the men-children of this forum couldn’t handle some smack-downs and tough love. I’m also tagged on Urban Dictionary along with Doctor Q, a fantastic honour.

As it’s said, ‘Men are afraid that women will laugh at them.’

As a moderator though, I felt I could’t ignore anyone’s content, just to keep tabs on people’s stuff. I still don’t have anyone on my ignore list. However, personally I don’t find it difficult to ignore posts. I just occasionally pop by and if I see something a bit whack, I’ll report it. Doing otherwise leads to a life and mind of anxiety and general un-chilledness.

So, my advice to you is this; don’t become too wound up by individual forum members, don’t reply or even set up poorly-designed online polls that only serve to inflame opinion and initiate a stream of reactionary nonsense, because people that care strongly about something will respond. Those who agree with you but are a bit ‘meh’, will not respond. It’s best to report something anonymously with a solid reason for doing so, you may not always get a reply, but it will be read and it may spark a mod discussion. Personally, I think it's foolish to throw this back to community. There's little clear reasoned arguments from the right in these discussions, and those they put forward are shot through with holes.

Let them have their petty moment in the sun. They’re facing an irresistible tide of public opinion and demographic change in the long run, and these kind of small gestures of defiance really show how weak they. They are in retreat. Take pity or take amusement… or show them the mercy that they would show if the tables were turned. It's an entertaining way to pass a short time PRSI, as long as you don't overdo it.

Your crappy flag and bankrupt 'lost cause' is a joke. The South will not rise again.

I know this is hard to understand. But, just because you're offended does not mean everyone else is. You can continue to be offended for them and I'm sure it's appreciated though.

 

[Renzatic]

I know this is hard to understand. But, just because you're offended does not mean everyone else is. You can continue to be offended for them and I'm sure it's appreciated though.

I think it's your complete lack of self awareness, and your refusal to see that there are deeper meanings to things besides their surface appearances that offends me the most. You can believe what you want to believe, so long as you're smart about it. You're not. You get off on the thrill of offending others, and pat yourself on the back when you bait someone into a response.

Glib asides, to ape from BlueVelvet, are your sword, your shield, and the maximum extent of your reasoning. I've never seen you offer anything more.

 

[Blue Velvet]

I know this is hard to understand. But, just because you're offended does not mean everyone else is. You can continue to be offended for them and I'm sure it's appreciated though.

I'm not offended. Being patronised in such a pygmy-like fashion is hilarious. Clearly with such a rapid response time, you immediately glommed onto your one useless 'argument', just repeating it to beat that dead horse as though repeating this claim adds to its strength. Characterising the import of this symbol as people 'getting offended' is the weakest tea of false equivalencies. The reason why I know this is, that no conservative has defended the use of confederacy symbology on its merits, instead seeking to describe it as people 'getting offended'. Its a denigration and devaulation of the liberal stance. The best argument I've seen is the censorship argument, but upon closer examination, that also falls apart.

Anyway, another one who reads and responds without understanding. However, I will not 'ignore' you. I may just condescend and mock you… if I can be bothered. Or could I just choose to actually literally ignore you given I have no damn idea who who are or why your views matter.

This is my last post, I've exhausted my views already and have laid out my case against the tide of obfuscation in this crappy thread. Dinner time is calling and I've got some work to do; life has to move on.

Cheers!

 

[tgara]

Moreover, I confess myself surprised that you fail to see - and cannot see - why this flag is so offensive to many others.

You don't know me, so do not presume to know what I can see or not see. I perfectly well understand that the confederate flag may be viewed by some as offensive, particularly when it was used by the KKK. As an American who has studied our history, I can equally see how the flag is a source of southern pride and what significance it has to my fellow Americans from the southern states whose ancestors fought and died in the Civil War. Someone, I forget who, posted about this earlier in the thread. And given those two competing interpretations, my default position is to let people use it.

I think it is you who fail to see why this flag is a source of southern pride, history, and heritage.

But, nevertheless, there are matters of courtesy and consideration and maybe the possibility of putting some thought into not deliberately setting out - by use of a known controversial and contentious emblem - to offend, or to give offence.

Do you remember when the Supreme Court handed down the Obergefell decision in June? Our president decided that evening to light up the White House in the Gay Rainbow colors, a controversial and contentions emblem to some. That was a bare majority 5-4 decision with many Americans not agreeing with gay marriage. The president deliberately used that emblem on the White House to put a presidential imprimatur on the decision, to which many people disagree. Why did he do that? Where was his courtesy? Where was his consideration for the other half of the country, the people with a different view? Personally, I think he did it to rub that victory in the faces of people with an different viewpoint. And it was an unpresidential gesture, another in a long line of unpresidential gestures and actions, because, well, that's how he rolls.

So I agree with others when they say they find your selective outrage a bit disingenuous.

 

[haxrnick]

I think it's your complete lack of self awareness, and your refusal to see that there are deeper meanings to things besides their surface appearances that offends me the most. You can believe what you want to believe, so long as you're smart about it. You're not. You get off on the thrill of offending others, and pat yourself on the back when you bait someone into a response.

Otherwise known as feelings. I don't let them jade my view on issues. I don't care if I offend others because that is their problem and choice, not mine.

 

[stroked]

You don't know me, so do not presume to know what I can see or not see. I perfectly well understand that the confederate flag may be viewed by some as offensive, particularly when it was used by the KKK. As an American who has studied our history, I can equally see how the flag is a source of southern pride and what significance it has to my fellow Americans from the southern states whose ancestors fought and died in the Civil War. Someone, I forget who, posted about this earlier in the thread. And given those two competing interpretations, my default position is to let people use it.

I think it is you who fail to see why this flag is a source of southern pride, history, and heritage.


Do you remember when the Supreme Court handed down the Obergefell decision in June? Our president decided that evening to light up the White House in the Gay Rainbow colors, a controversial and contentions emblem to some. That was a bare majority 5-4 decision with many Americans not agreeing with gay marriage. The president deliberately used that emblem on the White House to put a presidential imprimatur on the decision, to which many people disagree. Why did he do that? Where was his courtesy? Where was his consideration for people with a different view? Personally, I think he did it to rub that victory in the faces of people with an different viewpoint.

So I agree with others when they say they find your selective outrage a bit disingenuous.

One of the best replies so far. I nominate you for a trophy point, whatever that is.

 

[QuantumLo0p]

Thank goodness there are still many people who believe the constitution is not living and breathing. Living and breathing is simply a way to unequally apply the constitution and law to individuals and/or groups. The 14th amendment bans doing that unless one doesn't believe in the Constitution. It is clear on this.

 

[stroked]

Thank goodness there are still many people who believe the constitution is not living and breathing. Living and breathing is simply a way to unequally apply the constitution and law to individuals and/or groups. The 14th amendment bans doing that unless one doesn't believe in the Constitution. It is clear on this.

The Constitution has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[0000757]

You don't know me, so do not presume to know what I can see or not see. I perfectly well understand that the confederate flag may be viewed by some as offensive, particularly when it was used by the KKK. As an American who has studied our history, I can equally see how the flag is a source of southern pride and what significance it has to my fellow Americans from the southern states whose ancestors fought and died in the Civil War. Someone, I forget who, posted about this earlier in the thread. And given those two competing interpretations, my default position is to let people use it.

I think it is you who fail to see why this flag is a source of southern pride, history, and heritage.

I'm thinking you're forgetting the point of the Civil War. The whole reasoning for the Civil War was that South Carolina declared they would formally leave the Union if Lincoln was elected and the Republican party took control of the government? Why? Because South Carolina's economy during the time period relied on AA Slavery to survive, and the Republican party's platform was to remove slavery across the entire union.

South Carolina's decision to leave the Union inspired the other states, specifically those who wanted to preserve slavery. The idea about States' Rights being the source of the Civil War is only half-true. Yes, it was about giving States decisions, but it was over the decision to enslave a race and treat them as a sub-human class. Why anyone would be prideful of such a situation is ridiculous and honestly shocking.

There have been so many events, both on a larger scale, and a smaller scale, where the root was preserving something that is basically a violation of human rights. Germans with ancestors/relatives who were in WWI and WWII do not fly the Weimar Republic Symbols/Nazi flag or the symbols of the Third Reich, for example. That's a situation that's obviously more extreme, but there is nothing prideful about fighting for slavery.

The history it contains is NOT something that should be celebrated. It should be taught, studied, and understood, but it should NOT be celebrated. The Civil War has its roots in slavery, aggression, violence, and isn't a "heritage" that should be celebrated.

Not to mention, the flag has lost the meaning of the Civil War, and ever since has been a SYMBOL of Racial Superiority. This isn't the first symbol this has happened to. The Swastika is a similar symbol that has had the same effect applied to it. What was once a buddhist(?) symbol of peace has become a symbol of violence. Similarly, that's what has happened to this symbol. EVEN though it has that history behind it, that's not what it means in a modern day context.

 

[sartrekid]

I second the suggestion to put obnoxious posters on your ignore list.

I just had a look at who's still on mine and it was an interesting trip down memory lane. Some have been there for years. Mostly maladjusted, tactless, discourteous jerks who think they're being edgy and badass but simply come across as inadequate attention-seekers, seriously lacking in social-skills.

As a potential forum improvement, I think it would be great if we could see who was on everyone's ignore list. Or at least publish "ignore counts" (this person is ignored by 10,256 members). Making it public would reign-in some of the deliberate jack-assery, since offenders would see their audience vanishing in a publicly embarrassing way.

They'd soon get the message.

I don't think that's a good idea. The main purpose of this thread - as I understand it - is whether or not abasement and deliberate acts of offense and discrimination should be categorically disallowed or not. It started out with the symbol of the Confederate flag but it's much more than that; it's about whether or it is acceptable to willfully showcase ignorance towards a person or group, whether it's aggressive humiliation or not, whether it's hurtful to someone or an entire group of people or not.

I'm strictly and categorically against purposefully demeaning anyone, even if that someone holds views that are racist, bigoted, or just generally deprived of human decency. As much as none of these things exist in my world and surroundings, I am fully aware that they are not representative. I'm not sure if you were 100% serious or tongue-in-cheek, but if the former, then I think it would promote counter-hatred, something that is equally destructive. You can't fight fire with fire. That's a tiresome platitude, but it's true.

To cite Dr. House: "People don't change". I've long given up even trying. Thus, like someone else has already stated a few posts back, I'm just going to accept it and move on and put everyone who makes me feel ashamed to be of the same species on my ignore list and be done with it.

 

[QuantumLo0p]

The Constitution has nothing to do with this thread.

Censorship and discrimination are indeed timeless concepts, my friend.

 

[Oudinot]

I'm thinking you're forgetting the point of the Civil War. The whole reasoning for the Civil War was that South Carolina declared they would formally leave the Union if Lincoln was elected and the Republican party took control of the government? Why? Because South Carolina's economy during the time period relied on AA Slavery to survive, and the Republican party's platform was to remove slavery across the entire union.

South Carolina's decision to leave the Union inspired the other states, specifically those who wanted to preserve slavery. The idea about States' Rights being the source of the Civil War is only half-true. Yes, it was about giving States decisions, but it was over the decision to enslave a race and treat them as a sub-human class. Why anyone would be prideful of such a situation is ridiculous and honestly shocking.

There have been so many events, both on a larger scale, and a smaller scale, where the root was preserving something that is basically a violation of human rights. Germans with ancestors/relatives who were in WWI and WWII do not fly the Weimar Republic Symbols/Nazi flag or the symbols of the Third Reich, for example. That's a situation that's obviously more extreme, but there is nothing prideful about fighting for slavery.

The history it contains is NOT something that should be celebrated. It should be taught, studied, and understood, but it should NOT be celebrated. The Civil War has its roots in slavery, aggression, violence, and isn't a "heritage" that should be celebrated.

Not to mention, the flag has lost the meaning of the Civil War, and ever since has been a SYMBOL of Racial Superiority. This isn't the first symbol this has happened to. The Swastika is a similar symbol that has had the same effect applied to it. What was once a buddhist(?) symbol of peace has become a symbol of violence. Similarly, that's what has happened to this symbol. EVEN though it has that history behind it, that's not what it means in a modern day context.

You don't know anything, Jon Snow!

 

[Oudinot]

The South will not rise again.

As you were, it already has!

 

[vrDrew]

So, my advice to you is this; don’t become too wound up by individual forum members, don’t reply or even set up poorly-designed online polls that only serve to inflame opinion and initiate a stream of reactionary nonsense,

Points taken. Thanks for your reasoned and detailed post.

As I general rule, I detest online polls, and if I'd given a little more thought to it, I wouldn't have included one. The evidentiary value of the results from a self-selecting, doubly-anonymous sampling like the one I created is negligible. Lesson learned. Mea Culpa.

I do think the issue is timely. And, from my perspective, seeing a little Confederate flag show up in PRSI threads so soon after a national tragedy - and what I thought was a general (if not universal) consensus against that symbol, was a little jarring. Something I felt was worthy of at least discussion. If nothing else, those professing their support for the display of the symbol got to express their rationale for so doing. And as Blue Velvet pointed out, the rationale is slender at best.

The arguments against censorship in general were more compelling, especially coming from those who otherwise expressed disgust at the symbol in question. Obviously in the online sphere censorship is something reserved for the truly unacceptable - child porn, profanity, etc. Lesson #2 learned.

One final note: I do a tremendous amount of work with people involved in sales. And one of the most valuable characteristics of successful salespeople is a strong ability to project empathy. The ability to see things from your customer's point of view is a tremendous asset in closing a deal, no matter what it might be that you are selling. And that is, by and large, something I see lacking in so many of the arguments I see made from Conservative points of view. Saying "I don't think its offensive, ergo your feelings on the matter are irrelevant and tyrannical" comes across as not just selfish, but ultimately self-defeating. It might be more productive to frame it as "I understand why you might feel that way. However here are historical reasons #1,2, 3 etc. why you might want to reconsider. Or at least be more tolerant of my history, heritage, point of view."

 

[Renzatic]

Otherwise known as feelings. I don't let them jade my view on issues. I don't care if I offend others because that is their problem and choice, not mine.

Yeah, god forbid you learn something, and quit painting whole groups of people with a large brush. Seeing complex issues as the multifaceted things they are, and treating them as such is a "liberal" thing, I guess. And we all know how much you hate liberals.

 

[Renzatic]

I do think the issue is timely. And, from my perspective, seeing a little Confederate flag show up in PRSI threads so soon after a national tragedy - and what I thought was a general (if not universal) consensus against that symbol, was a little jarring.

Dredging up old controversy on top of new tragedies is a recent trend, it seems.

The shootings here in Chattanooga really brought it out in some people. Shortly afterwards, some people decided to hang American flags from a bridge off Lee Highway. That's perfectly understandable, given what had just happened. But one asshat, oh yes, he decided to place a Confederate flag right alongside them. It was gone the next day, at least.

Some people just don't understand there's a time and a place...

 

[stroked]

Saying "I don't think its offensive, ergo your feelings on the matter are irrelevant and tyrannical" comes across as not just selfish, but ultimately self-defeating. It might be more productive to frame it as "I understand why you might feel that way. However here are historical reasons #1,2, 3 etc. why you might want to reconsider. Or at least be more tolerant of my history, heritage, point of view."

More hypocrisy from the left. He doesn't want to re-frame any of their rude comments. Tolerance is the last thing he wants. This thread is proof of that.

 

[haxrnick]

Yeah, god forbid you learn something, and quit painting whole groups of people with a large brush. Seeing complex issues as the multifaceted things they are, and treating them as such is a "liberal" thing, I guess. And we all know how much you hate liberals.

I don't hate liberals at all. I hate that they hate America and I pity them for that. Liberals are pretty entertaining to be honest and I'm surrounded by them out here in Seattle.

 

[Renzatic]

I don't hate liberals at all. I hate that they hate America and I pity them for that. Liberals are pretty entertaining to be honest and I'm surrounded by them out here in Seattle.

The fact you think all liberals hate America tells me all I need to know about you.

 

[vrDrew]

I hate that they hate America and I pity them for that.

I'll be honest and say I don't even understand how you can come to that conclusion.

The truth is liberals love their country every bit as much as anybody else.

Where I think liberals might disagree with you is this: We love America so much we are disappointed when it fails to live up to its principles. When we read about "all men created equal" and "no law respecting an establishment of religion" we tend to take them at their word. Which means, regardless of our own religious faith - we get uncomfortable seeing Bible verses taught in publicly-funded schools.

And that thing about "all men created equal"?

Yeah. The fact that a hundred fifty years after the end of slavery. Fifty years after the signing of the voting rights act. Americans are still waving a flag that (in our opinion at least) represents strenuous attempts to put that to the lie.

Thats the reason I started this thread.

Not because I hate America. Its because I love America. And know that Americans can, and must - as we have done throughout our history - do better.

 

[MacDawg]

Hey, let's not lose sight of what this thread is really about.

OP’s title is - Confederate Flag Avatars: Time to say Goodbye
OP’s poll is - Should MacRumors allow Confederate Flag Avatars
OP’s request is - “I respectfully ask that present and future members of the MR community be prohibited from choosing as their avatar, iconography of the Confederate Flag.”

Simple. Straightforward.

So, what this thread isn’t…

It is not an argument over free speech.
As the OP has observed, “…participation here is not a matter protected by the First Amendment of the US Constitution.” Many members have already found that out while discussing other matters, so that isn’t the issue.

It is not an argument over the merits of liberal v conservative ideology.
Much has been made in the thread over liberals and conservatives, but that isn’t the issue either. Both sides have their champions and are eagerly willing to fight, whether there is a battle or a windmill to chase, but this isn’t the thread to debate either ideology.

It is not an argument over States Rights v Slavery as the impetus of the Civil War.
Since the earliest of times culture have sought to re-write and re-interpret their history and past. The arguments over the Civil War are no different in that regard and won’t be solved here, and discussion over this doesn’t really contribute to the premise of the thread.

It is not an argument over origin and/or historical significance of the Confederate Flag.
The OP makes this clear, “This is not the place to debate or discuss the detailed history of the flag in question…” The original intent of the flag v what it has come to mean is subjective. For some it is a symbol of racism. For others it isn’t. To state unequivocally what it means to everyone is disingenuous. It clearly means different things to different people.

It is not an argument over whether the flag is offensive to some/many.
Related to the above, this really deserves a separate point. Clearly most people would admit that the Confederate Flag is offensive to some/many. The percentages will vary, but there isn’t really a debate that the number of people who find the Confederate Flag offensive is greater than zero. One might take exception to the OP’s words that “for a significant majority of people, both in the United States and elsewhere, the Confederate flag has come to represent, not Southern pride or military prowess, but in fact an institutional and societal racism that a great many users find deeply offensive.” That ‘significant majority’ is an unproven assumption and is an attempt to dismiss the debate and prejudice the original premise of the thread. But again, the poll/premise isn’t “do you find the Confederate Flag offensive”, but rather “Should MacRumors allow Confederate Flag avatars.” We have seen throughout the thread there are some who find the flag offensive, but who don’t support a ban.

It is not an argument over whether the flag should fly over State Capitols or be sold on merchandise, etc.
That too, would be a separate argument. This is about MR and nothing else. In reality, all of the above arguments belong in the PRSI (which incidentally I have on my ignore list). However, the reason this thread remains in “Site and Forum Feedback” is because it is supposed to be a discussion over site rules, policy and enforcement.

What this thread is…

This thread is a call for banning the use of the Confederate Flag as an avatar on MR.
The OP stated, “I am asking that MacRumors moderators and staff consider a ban on users creating avatars that feature or consist mainly of images of the Confederate Flag.”

So, the thread really needs to focus on the MR rules and the Administration's application of them.

Within the MR Rules, Avatars are listed under “Minor Problems”.

Avatar and signature content. Avatars and signatures, as well as other profile fields, must comply with all forum rules, including those against profanity, explicit sexual content, insults against groups or individuals, referral links, and cannot be in other ways offensive. Members will be required to change avatars or signatures that are deemed too controversial or that are particularly annoying or distracting to other members. Note that signatures may include links to your own site or business as long as you do not make posts whose purpose is to call attention to your signature.

So at issue here isn’t “is the Confederate Flag offensive”, but rather, “is it offensive, controversial, annoying, distracting, insulting enough to members for MR Administration to require someone to change it.”

With that in mind, the issue of Confederate Flag avatars should be handled the same way as any other issue.

If you find something offensive on MR…

1. Report it - That’s the standard and recognized procedure. Report it and make your case. I have reported things in the past. Sometimes they change. Sometimes they don't. I lived.

2. Use the Contact Us Form - If you aren’t happy with the response or lack thereof from reporting it, then use the Contact Us Form to communicate directly with the Administration of the site, state the case, ask for clarification, etc.

3. Ignore it - If you don’t get the outcome you hoped for, then just ignore it. There are many things in life we disagree with and choose to ignore. We do it every day in all types of settings and circumstances and somehow we survive.

4. Put users on ignore list - If it is too hard to ignore, then put users on the ignore list so they won’t be seen. The more you call attention to them, the more they act out. Once they see they aren’t getting attention, they move on to something else.

The OP opted for making a poll and creating a public referendum on the matter. In fairness, that could be considered a part of the purpose of Site and Forum Feedback. The OP has had the opportunity to make the case for banning Confederate Flag avatars. The poll results are public, even though they are not binding on the Administration.

For what is is worth…

Some things don’t matter
Some things are worth fussing about
Some things are worth fighting over
Some things are worth dying for
Choose wisely​

In my opinion (and that is all that it is), this isn’t a watershed crisis for MR, a Rosa Parks moment or an “I have a dream” speech, but each member has to make their own decision about how important they want to make this issue with the MR Administration. Just remember the “law of unintended consequences.” When you limit your field of vision and make choices and decisions based on a subset of the whole, you risk losing sight of the big picture.

When I take time to step away from my keyboard, take a deep breath and look at the grand scheme of things, someone’s choice of MR avatar falls under “some things don’t matter” for me. Your mileage may vary.

 

[rhett7660]

@MacDawg,

Well stated.

 

[displaced]

@MacDawg,

Well stated.

Quite. That's possibly the most sensible message I've seen on these forums for nigh-on a decade.

A Confederate Flag avatar against someone's name is (for me) no different to seeing someone wth the flag on their belt-buckle.

Individuals may like to display that flag for a variety of reasons. Hell, over here in the UK I could go to a supermarket and pick up a t-shirt with it on without the foggiest idea what it stood for. I'd hazard a guess that the majority of people outside the US wouldn't have a clue. That's in stark contrast to a Nazi flag which is a symbol of hatred world-wide.

Of course, should someone choose to have the flag as their avatar, I'm probably going to factor in something of what I know about that flag into whatever that user posts. It is an image loaded with with history.

Those who choose to display it need to live with the fact that viewers won't know if they're doing so because they sympathise with the idea that blacks are an inferior species that God placed on this planet to serve the White Man, or simply because they like eating hot grits whilst watching The Dukes of Hazzard.

It isn't until I get to know (sorta) that person via the content of their posts that I'll actually decide where on that spectrum they fall.