Confederate Flag Avatars: Time to say Goodbye

[throAU]

So why are they using it?

To highlight the hypocrites who get offended by it and demand to ban it whilst espousing the virtues of a country founded on free speech? To troll people? Who knows.

Is it relevant?

I don't like the colour purple, i think we should ban it so i don't get offended by seeing it...

 

[sartrekid]

I don't see where multiculturalism has worked anywhere. Not in England, France, Germany or even in the Scandinavian countries. It doesn't unite the people but places a barrier between them. If I wanted to leave the U.S. and move to another country I feel it would be incumbent upon me to mesh with my new home and not be at odds with it. I would need to learn the language as probably the first step in the process. What's the point to making a new life when all you do is try and resurrect what you new previously had. I just don't get it.

I can attest that multiculturalism does indeed work in some places here, in Germany. It also fails in many places. It hasn't, however, failed as a whole and it doesn't have to create barriers unless people are unwilling to try and work hard on making it work. What you will always be able to observe is that it fails miserably in those areas where segregation is present and where integration is absent.

There are, however, beautiful examples of successful multiculturalism here, places where everyone lives with everyone, where no emphasis is put on race, nationality, and religion, where people simply get along and where differences amplify rather than reduce the quality of people's lives as a whole. That doesn't mean there are no conflicts. Of course there are and not every conflict has or needs a solution. However, people can at least try to not unnecessarily hurt one another and still maintain their identity. People don't lose identities by being accepting and respectful towards the identities of others.

As for barriers; we create barriers. We can also remove them.

 

[Renzatic]

To highlight the hypocrites who get offended by it and demand to ban it whilst espousing the virtues of a country founded on free speech? To troll people? Who knows.

Is it relevant?

I don't like the colour purple, i think we should ban it so i don't get offended by seeing it...

It's relevancy depends on how it's used.

I'm not advocating a ban. Far from it. People should have every right to fly it if they want to, but they should expect to be called out for it if they do.

Freedom of expression doesn't begin and end with a single statement. Criticism isn't oppression, rather the opposite side of a double edged sword.

 

[Eraserhead]

To highlight the hypocrites who get offended by it and demand to ban it whilst espousing the virtues of a country founded on free speech? To troll people? Who knows.

Is it relevant?

I don't like the colour purple, i think we should ban it so i don't get offended by seeing it...

If the colour purple was used only by people who behaved unspeakably badly, such as Islamic state, the Nazis, North Korea etc. etc. then I'd agree we should ban it.

However over here in the real world that isn't true at all, so there's no reason to ban it.

With all these social things we must of course be careful not to go too far.

 

[bradl]

I didn't want to jump into this one, but after thinking about it, I'm going to speak my mind, and let the argument continue.

First off, this isn't censorship, as this is a private site, held and maintained by a private group of people. The government doesn't pay the bills for upkeep of this site, so our right to free speech isn't protected. If they want to prohibit the use of the Confederate Flag, so be it. That would be the same for anything they so desire; That would be their prerogative, and there would be nothing we could do about it. We could complain about it, get over it and stay here, or leave. Those are our choices.

Additionally, the only thing that would cover whether any higher power overruling the owners of the site would be the applicable laws over where the site is located. If this were a site in Germany, German laws would apply, which all but prohibit the swastika.

With that said, as much as it represents a horrible time in the history of the USA, I would say I wouldn't want it banned. Why do I say that? I say that because as it could be referred to as free speech, a certain President of the USA said it best:

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

If they use it, they would have said a lot about who and what they are, and then at least we would know who the idiots are, and can consider what they have to say just as foolish and idiotic.

BL.

 

[vrDrew]

If they use it, they would have said a lot about who and what they are, and then at least we would know who the idiots are, and can consider what they have to say just as foolish and idiotic

I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this discussion. It's always useful to get a broad range of opinions on a controversial issue.

There are doubtless many people who voted "Yes" on the question of allowing the Confederate Flag as a matter of principle. They might detest the philosophy represented by the Confederate Flag, but feel that the general principle of freedom of expression is more important. I can respect that. There are also those who suggest the Confederate Flag icon serves a very useful purpose in identifying those of a particular intellectual and philosophical bent. This was not something I'd previously considered. And it is a very valid argument.

There are also those who stated, forcefully, their right to display and use the flag that they feel is symbolic of their regional and cultural heritage and history. That the Confederate flag is not automatically symbolic of the oppression and marginalization of millions of African-Americans. These arguments I find less convincing.

I don't want to call this discussion "Resolved." We are part of a larger society where attitudes and mores continue to change in response to events. Who knows what the next six months, six years, or six decades might bring. I am glad we have had this discussion. The fact that some members of the MR community find the Confederate Flag offensive has obviously come to the attention of the Moderators and Staff, who will doubtless keep that in mind as they go about the (often thankless) task of keeping thousands of opinionated and spirited discussions under some sort of control.

My opinion on the Confederate Flag hasn't changed. But lets just say my attitude towards an outright ban on it, in this particular forum, has evolved. And, on the bright side, I do have to note I haven't seen very much of it in the last few days. Sometimes you win in ways you didn't expect.

 

[haxrnick]

This is what happens when the everybody gets a trophy crowd grows up. If you don't agree with them you're a racist, homophobe, woman-hating bigot. Oh and not even close to as intelligent as they are, they will let you know.

Learn from this.

 

[Oudinot]

That's why the US isn't widely regarded as The Great Melting Pot, rather the Great Balkanized Cultural Hodgepodge.

Legal immigrants into the U.S. meshed into the culture. They learned English and went with the flow. Today multicultural demands they keep all their old ways which leads to division. The don't become Americans the become xxxxxxxx-Americans. Melting pot means absorption not separate.

 

[Renzatic]

This is what happens when the everybody gets a trophy crowd grows up. If you don't agree with them you're a racist, homophobe, woman-hating bigot. Oh and not even close to as intelligent as they are, they will let you know.

Sometimes the shoe fits, don't it?

 

[Renzatic]

Legal immigrants into the U.S. meshed into the culture. They learned English and went with the flow. Today multicultural demands they keep all their old ways which leads to division. The don't become Americans the become xxxxxxxx-Americans. Melting pot means absorption not separate.

I haven't seen any examples of this. While it's true that, more often than not, most first generation immigrants tend to stick together, keeping a foot planted firmly on their cultural roots, their kids end up assimilating, becoming just like everyone else.

 

[vrDrew]

Legal immigrants into the U.S. meshed into the culture. They learned English and went with the flow..

Is that really true?

Because I can think of dozens of counterexamples. Like the Basilica of St. Josaphat in Milwaukee - where the (gorgeous) dome has an inscription in Polish

What about the Amish of Pennsylvania's Lancaster County? Who are still speaking a version of Alsatian German a hundred fifty years after the last immigrants arrived?

Milwaukee had more German language newspapers than English-language ones up until the mid-1930s.

Or the Cajuns of Louisiana? Whose ancestors arrived on these shores as Acadians in the seventeenth century, a good hundred years before the founding of the United States - and yet still have significant number of people who speak their own unique dialect.

Get back to me in twenty or thirty years, and show me large communities of Hmong, or Vietnamese, or Koreans, etc. whose children and grandchildren still are speaking in those languages.

 

[Oudinot]

Is that really true?

Because I can think of dozens of counterexamples. Like the Basilica of St. Josaphat in Milwaukee - where the (gorgeous) dome has an inscription in Polish

What about the Amish of Pennsylvania's Lancaster County? Who are still speaking a version of Alsatian German a hundred fifty years after the last immigrants arrived?

Milwaukee had more German language newspapers than English-language ones up until the mid-1930s.

Or the Cajuns of Louisiana? Whose ancestors arrived on these shores as Acadians in the seventeenth century, a good hundred years before the founding of the United States - and yet still have significant number of people who speak their own unique dialect.

Get back to me in twenty or thirty years, and show me large communities of Hmong, or Vietnamese, or Koreans, etc. whose children and grandchildren still are speaking in those languages.

Can't argue with your comments. I probably should have said the vast majority wanted and became Americans. The shift towards multiculturalism has been much slower in America than in Europe but from what I gather quite a few feel that the attempt has been a failure. I'm an American not a Southern American or an English American or a French American or, well you see the point. I personally don't think in the long run this is a direction the U S wants to go. However, look at Bernies support in the Democrat Party. He's a socialist for crying out loud!

The U.S. Will become socialistic over the next xx years just like our neighbors across the pond unless of course we become a satellite of Islam. Neither of these are acceptable to me but I will be dead and gone by then. You and the rest will either embrace it or be crushed by it. Too many baby boomers screwed the pooch in the 1960's and put us all on this road.

The prevailing attitude of Businesses are bad news. All Corporations are corrupt. Capitalism is too cold. The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. Everyone gets a trophy for showing up. Completion is cruel. No one should lose everyone should win. We don't need no stinking military. It's not my fault.

I wasn't brought up this way and I will go kicking and screaming fighting the conversion all the way.

 

[stroked]

I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this discussion. It's always useful to get a broad range of opinions on a controversial issue.

There are doubtless many people who voted "Yes" on the question of allowing the Confederate Flag as a matter of principle. They might detest the philosophy represented by the Confederate Flag, but feel that the general principle of freedom of expression is more important. I can respect that. There are also those who suggest the Confederate Flag icon serves a very useful purpose in identifying those of a particular intellectual and philosophical bent. This was not something I'd previously considered. And it is a very valid argument.

There are also those who stated, forcefully, their right to display and use the flag that they feel is symbolic of their regional and cultural heritage and history. That the Confederate flag is not automatically symbolic of the oppression and marginalization of millions of African-Americans. These arguments I find less convincing.

I don't want to call this discussion "Resolved." We are part of a larger society where attitudes and mores continue to change in response to events. Who knows what the next six months, six years, or six decades might bring. I am glad we have had this discussion. The fact that some members of the MR community find the Confederate Flag offensive has obviously come to the attention of the Moderators and Staff, who will doubtless keep that in mind as they go about the (often thankless) task of keeping thousands of opinionated and spirited discussions under some sort of control.

My opinion on the Confederate Flag hasn't changed. But lets just say my attitude towards an outright ban on it, in this particular forum, has evolved. And, on the bright side, I do have to note I haven't seen very much of it in the last few days. Sometimes you win in ways you didn't expect.

Well damn, I already had a replacement flag picked out.

 

[Renzatic]

The prevailing attitude of Businesses are bad news. All Corporations are corrupt. Capitalism is too cold. The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. Everyone gets a trophy for showing up. Completion is cruel. No one should lose everyone should win. We don't need no stinking military. It's not my fault.

I wasn't brought up this way and I will go kicking and screaming fighting the conversion all the way.

Neither was I, and everything listed above aren't things I personally believe in. They're the stereotype of liberialism, spewed out by stupid talking heads who's sole purpose is to scare the crap out of you to keep ratings up. Ultimately, you're doing nothing but tilting at windmills, fighting against a boogeyman that doesn't exist.

 

[Oudinot]

Neither was I, and everything listed above aren't things I personally believe in. They're the stereotype of liberialism, spewed out by stupid talking heads who's sole purpose is to scare the crap out of you to keep ratings up. Ultimately, you're doing nothing but tilting at windmills, fighting against a boogeyman that doesn't exist.

Some people live in caves of denial.

 

[stroked]

Even the most liberal on PRSI gets it.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/confederate-flag-flagged-for-removal.1894245/


While I know that it was offensive and I get that, we've become a bit PC with it, that we are trying so hard to correct it that we basically rewrite our history, which is the wrong thing to do. We need to keep it in our history, but also teach why it is wrong. Thankfully, we haven't gone as far as Germany or France, where you can't even sell, buy or trade anything that has the image of the swastika on it (even though it means something completely different in India or to the Hindu religion).

 

[ProjectManager101]

I'll tell you where multiculturalism has worked:

Right here. The United States is the most vibrant, successful country in the history of the world. And it got that way by taking the best of pretty much every nation and culture on earth, mixing it up and creating something new - and better.

Yeah: As a nation, the US was started by white guys whose ancestors mainly came from the British Isles. But even back then they were incorporating influences from France, from Ancient Greece and Rome. And things didn't stay that way for long.

I cannot think of a single element of US society; culture; economics; athletics; whatever - that hasn't been made better thanks to the contributions of people coming here from around the world.

My friend, you couldn't be more wrong.

The United States is the most depressing society ever. Everybody has a label, everybody is a group, there is not inclusion. As a matter of fact you still having racism very "vibrant". Is the only country where I have seen the term "latinos" and "native americans" and "Mexicans" and "Chinese", everybody in a group, even the Irish. You need to leave your computer and start to travel for real. I live in Miami and the people from Haiti are isolated in their place, the cubans, there is no a single gringo in Miami. And I have lived in New York and I never felt racism until I was there and I have lived in Arkansas and the discrimination was amazing and I am not black, I am latina but I do not even look like the latina stereotype. I live here in the U.S. for X reasons but I can't stand this isolation. Here people needs technology to fulfill their lives, all your friends are in Facebook. I mean I can write a book but what your are mentioning is just plain propaganda. You go to Venezuela and as soon you step in the airport you are Venezuelan. We do not have "communities", and the same in Brasil, Colombia, Costa Rica and even Germany, Italy and in every european country I have been and lived. Actually I got my American citizenship a month ago and when Obama mentioned in the video "the land of freedom" everybody was whispering... yeah right and we were about 300 people. The only good thing about the U.S. is that if you work you get paid. But as a society.... this is the country with most prostitution, drug consumptions, more jails, more divorces, more single parents, more debt, again... racism! Is the only country that has been involved in very single war during the last 100 years. Trust me, what you mentioned is just propaganda. Go and travel for a year and you will open your eyes big time.

 

[Mr. Retrofire]

Should MacRumors allow Confederate Flag Avatars

Yes, because this is a FORUM and not politicalcorrectness.com.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Yes, because this is a FORUM and not politicalcorrectness.com.

And - leaving aside the small - and much maligned issue of political correctness - are things such as respect, and courtesy and an acknowledgement that the use of some symbols -such as the flag of the Confederacy - may be considered profoundly offensive to significant number sod fellow forum members, - are they not matters worthy of consideration in a forum ?

 

[b0fh666]

And - leaving aside the small - and much maligned issue of political correctness - are things such as respect, and courtesy and an acknowledgement that the use of some symbols -such as the flag of the Confederacy - may be considered profoundly offensive to significant number sod fellow forum members, - are they not matters worthy of consideration in a forum ?

if people are truly offended by someone else's avatar in an internet forum all I can do is to advise them to seek professional help. the sooner the better.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

if people are truly offended by someone else's avatar in an internet forum all I can do is to advise them to seek professional help. the sooner the better.

And if someone knowingly chooses to use as an avatar something which is an utterly repellant and hugely offensive symbol to a significant percentage of his - or her - fellow citizens, does that individual not also stand in need of some sort of professional help for an arrogance and ignorance and lack of respect for others that borders on a state resembling sociopathy, or complete contempt?

 

[b0fh666]

you mean like ******.cx? that's kinda gross but i wont fight for its ban either.

it's called trolling and it is a well established internet tradition

 

[b0fh666]

oh from the stars at least the word is banned already. so sad.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

you mean like ******.cx? that's kinda gross but i wont fight for its ban either.

it's called trolling and it is a well established internet tradition

But, internet tradition or not, trolling is a tradition in such very poor taste, and somewhat indicative of dreadfully poor manners, don't you think?

oh from the stars at least the word is banned already. so sad.

No. Just a bit of consideration, class, and an attempt to cultivate an atmosphere of some respect for others.

 

[vrDrew]

There is one thing that I have noticed. Quite a lot, actually.

There is a subsection of what I'll call the tech community that has some very poor interpersonal skills. These people are usually men, ranging in age from their middle teens to their early forties.

This is not to suggest that other industries (medicine, law, sales, manufacturing, finance) don't have men with obnoxious personalities. But the issue in technology communities is particularly bad.

Its one reason Reddit is in the process of tearing itself apart. Its why talented women are leaving the tech industry in droves.

And, to be honest, I caught just a whiff of that in this thread. Only a couple of posts. The virulent absence of empathy. The self-involved self-righteous rage. Borne out of god only knows what combination of sexual frustration and not enough exposure to natural sunlight.

Maybe its too much time living in a digital world, comprised of binary gates. Xs and Os.

Then again, maybe its the only sort of work that jerks who don't work and play well with others can get.