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That is clearly not what he meant, and your argument is flawed. The first half of the second sentence is linked with the first sentence, but the second half is not.
No, it is not clear. What is clear is that every other person who has commented besides you and him feel the same way that I do. I suggest that you learn proper English grammar.
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Your post is a great example about how facts are bended through incompetent journalism and careless retelling by forum posters who didn't bother to read the entire story. Facts: CR was using a non-default, debugging configuration of Safari that can only be activated via a hidden developer menu. Virtually no users use that configuration. Yes, its Apple's bug in the end, but this bug only affects a very particular, low-profile operation mode and is therefore much less tested than the configuration a normal user would use. CR should know that using non-default settings of a browser cannot be representative for default operation. They have enabled that setting to emulate a particular scenario — and that made sense — however, they should have implemented that scenario at their server's end instead. Their mistake, one that I consider to be very crude for such a well-known organisation — is that they used a non-default configuration of the browser while not mentioning this fact in their original review(!!), observed some conflicting and overall clearly weird results (they even say it themselves!), and with all that, still proceeded to publish the article. I come from the scientific community, and thing like these are considered gross negligence and unprofessionalism. If you get non-systematic results in your experiment, which also conflicts with other related experiments, the only conclusion you can make is that your test is obviously not working properly.
To be fair, the menu is not at all hidden. It's actually fairly visible under the Develop menu, which is also fairly visible. However, I take issue with some other parts of your post. They could not emulate a scenario at their server's end as the very scenario they were emulating was loading new pages for the first time, something a server cannot tell a machine to do at the server's end. If you come from a scientific background, you should know that it is important to publish weird results as long as you note that the results are weird - which CR did. The only negligent thing that CR did was to not publish their testing process, which I agree that they should've. You cannot make a recommendation on inconsistent results, which is what CR followed - they did not say "the new MacBook Pro has a bad battery life" - instead they said that they couldn't recommend the tMBP based on inconsistent battery results. Now, as a secondary note, I do take issue with their testing process - most users will not diverge from the defaults and so they should strive to test using the default settings
[doublepost=1484351251][/doublepost]
It's still there. Just open activity monitor..

Alternatively, iStat Menu's can show it in the menu bar but with the same issue that made Apple hide it. Due to the extreme power throttling of the Haswell CPU's, the estimated time just jumps back and forth while your working with various loads.

For example, while using Xcode for app development, it shows over 8h while coding, than jumps down a bit while compiling just to go up again.

Not a real issue but obviously confusing enough for some "PRO" users to complain and have Apple remove it from the top menu. And this is not something that can be magically fixed. There simply is no simple way to predict remaining battery time in combination with aggressive power management..
Why does it have be fixed at all though? It's fairly clear that the time estimate is based on you continuing to use the machine in the manner that you're using it currently. Obviously the time remaining changes if I change my usage - Apple should've done what they usually do with user complaints and wait it out to see what's reasonable to change.
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Omg. .Stop it. Someone got a check. No "fix".. Still 3-4hrs at best. Unreal.
[doublepost=1484265654][/doublepost]
NAILED IT. I could not say it better! ^^^^^^
It's been fixed in the latest beta and unless you enabled that option, it isn't affecting your machine. Btw, what do you usually do on that machine?
[doublepost=1484351486][/doublepost]
Yes, "at least" Apples software is fixed now, but the tests don't tell the story for Chrome.
I'm sorry, I didn't consider those who thought "Apples software" was referring to Google Chrome when I spent 10 seconds typing that.
Then next time spend longer than 10 sec. on proper English grammar
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Even more interesting is getting battery life times of 12, 14, 16, 18 1/2, and 19 1/2 hours in some trials under a test procedure that's much more rigorous than Apple's, where Apple's published spec was up to 10 hours of battery lifetime.

Makes me wonder if CR actually did any kind of observation, monitoring, and supervision in their test protocols.

This is why some, more likely engineers, have little respect for CR's test procedures.
Are CR's procedures more rigorous than Apple's? From this report it sounds like it is ac
It wasn't the CACHE, it was the BUG that was "ENABLED" by Disabling the CACHE.

According to Apple, that Bug caused Safari to INTERMITTENTLY fall into a LOOP, CONTINUOUSLY RELOADING certain Assets on the webpage. THAT's what burned the battery-charge.
[doublepost=1484283604][/doublepost]
Really? I would assume that Apple also disables the Browser Cache when looping through its 25 website-test-set.
No, they don't. Apple specifically says that they keep all the defaults as they are, except where they make note of where there aren't specific defaults (screen brightness, etc.).
[doublepost=1484352170][/doublepost]
No, it's about the unprofessional way that CR is approaching the issue and a general recognition by the public that CR is no longer relevant as it was many years ago. First of all, this is a completely inconsequential bug. Who turns off caching on their browser? 4 or 5, maybe half a dozen, out of a million people? CR is only distracting from real issues, bugs, neglected product lines, etc. and other problems facing Apple, many of which are addressed by MacRumors users on a daily basis right here on these forums. CR also comes across as promoting clickbait and somewhat desperate for attention. Just look at the Youtube video above with the giant text superimposed: "Battery issue FIXED!" It wasn't even a battery issue. It was a Safari issue.
Quite a few more than a dozen in a million. How many web developers are out there? Probably thousands if not many more?
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Yeah, but you have spend another $19 on a new cable :p
Seriously the haters act like they are so "professional" yet they can't afford new cables to go with their new laptops...oh I forgot...the haters don't actually have these new laptops LOL
I'm a developer and I'm a) a college student (well, alumni now, but a student at the time of release) b) those cables cost quite a bit more than $19 at regular retail price but most importantly c) don't want to deal with the hassle of carrying so many cables.
 
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ok it lasts 3-5, depending on the workload. But still. How should I prove it to you?
This is a follow-up to the reply I sent about "Battery Logger".

In addition to Battery Logger, I decided to see if there was a way to determine which GPU is being used at any given moment (in real time). While the Energy Tab in Activity Monitor shows what, if any Processes are "dependent" on the dGPU; but it doesn't show which is in use RIGHT NOW.

Well, there is a Freeware (actually Donationware) Menubar thingy called "gfxCardStatus", which purports to do just that.

HOWEVER, people that are running gfxCardStatus under Sierra are reporting some REALLY WIERD stuff going on (including some people reporting that the Discrete vs. Integrated "switch" seemed to be working BACKWARDS), and NOT EXITING dGPU MODE, all of which did NOT happen in El Capitan and earlier.

So, as a Developer myself, that strongly suggests to me that Apple has been messing-around (either accidentally or on-purpose) with the "graphics switching" functions in macOS Sierra, and some stuff related to that feature is VERY LIKELY to be kinda "broken" right now, which would play hell with battery life, FOR SURE!!!

Now, since gfxCardStatus is Open Source, some intrepid person with more time to mess with the problem, SEEMS to have fixed the issue with gfxCardStatus, so it both reports correctly which GPU is being used, AND doesn't mess with the GPU "switch".

You can see the discussion about these issues on the Developer's "blog":

https://github.com/codykrieger/gfxCardStatus/issues/240


...and I THINK here's the "forked" version of gfxCardStatus that another Developer has created, specifically for Sierra:

https://github.com/steveschow/gfxCardStatus/releases/tag/v2.4.3i


So, if you want to try that "steveschow" version, above, at least you can see if the dGPU is running when you think it shouldn't be, and, if I read the product-features correctly, even FORCE "integrated graphics" (iGPU) mode, which should REALLY improve Battery Life.

Just a thought...
 
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I still have a 5 year old Windows laptop. It runs 10 okay. I've never had a Mac. It's way out of my budget for the little bit I use a computer for.

I've owned at least ten Macs, maybe twenty. Great for web development, graphics and media in general. For everything else, Windows rules. But for normal use a 200 dollar Android phone would be sufficient for 90% of the population.

"If you want a cheap computer, buy a smartphone."
 
Hmm. I noticed that the touchbar has 3.5 hours less battery life with the MBP 13. That's really bad. 3.5 hours less battery time for a "feature" I couldn't care less about. Apple should offer a 15 version without the TB too.
I'm biting my tongue to answer you seriously.

Your 3.5 hour figure is completely arbitrary. Could you link your source? It has a small % increased battery life. To get an extra 3.5 hours you would have to be doing something that gets you 15 to 18 hours out of the machines to begin with.

Its not the touch bar using up battery. The touch bar model has a higher CPU clock speed, higher memory bus clock speed, more powerful integrated graphics, an extra thunderbolt controller, etc. Its a much more powerful computer that uses a little more electricity.

Think of the non-touch bar model as an updated MBAir with vastly superior display, the new big trackpad, more memory, super fast SSD, and 2xThunderbolt 3 in a smaller chassis, for only ~$150 more than the old MBAir. Its worth it just for the display.
 
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Four "crappy" ports with a whopping 80 Gbps of RAW I/O power, and which can EACH SIMULTANEOUSLY supply:

  • Thunderbolt 3
  • (5) USB 3.0 Ports
  • FireWire 800
  • Gigabit Ethernet
  • mini DisplayPort
  • SD Card reader
  • Audio combo port (headphones or microphones)
  • S/PDIF digital audio
So, that's something like THIRTEEN "legacy" Ports (plus TB3) from just ONE of those "crappy" Ports. So, taken to its logical conclusion, you could theoretically "break-out" FOUR of those ports into, (drumroll, please) FIFTY-TWO I/O Ports.

Source: The soon-to-be-released Thunderbolt 3 Dock by OWC:

http://blog.macsales.com/38562-owc-...-3-dock-with-13-ports-available-for-pre-order

And in case you think they are being overly-optimistic, OWC already has a TB 2 version, that "only" has TWELVE legacy Ports for a TB2-based computer. Keep in mind that TB2 has HALF the I/O bandwidth as TB3; so both products seem QUITE plausible:

https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/Thu...=thunderbolt&gclid=CMHElMvJvtECFUK4wAodDlAIAQ

And a company called "Henge" is showing a TB3 "Tethered" dock with similar I/O capabilities to the OWC dock:

https://hengedocks.com/pages/tethered-docks

So, no. Not so "Crappy" after all, eh?

I would be happy to ditch two or three for USB-A and HDMI. Putting my money where my mouth is, after 16 years of apple computers, just got a windows 10 for my work computer. Can't deal with Dongles any more. I still use my macbook air (which is amazing), but it's just out of date. I didn't buy the macbook pro which I was hoping to purchase, because I wasn't happy with it.

So are they crappy, you are right they aren't. Are those ports useful or wanted? NOpE! Majority of tech mags and blogs agree
 
A s a photographer Apple eliminated one key feature that pro photographers need and use. The SD card slot. Second, they limit the ram to only 16 gigs. Try processing 4K video or high resolution images. Next time keep your fly trap shut unless you know what you are speaking about.

Professional photographers use a range of devices. Not all SD cards. If you're a pro you would know you can still connect an SD card to the new MBPs.
So. Now there's a new definition of Pro from the trolls...it's gotta have 32GB of ram. LOL.
 
I would be happy to ditch two or three for USB-A and HDMI. Putting my money where my mouth is, after 16 years of apple computers, just got a windows 10 for my work computer. Can't deal with Dongles any more. I still use my macbook air (which is amazing), but it's just out of date. I didn't buy the macbook pro which I was hoping to purchase, because I wasn't happy with it.

So are they crappy, you are right they aren't. Are those ports useful or wanted? NOpE! Majority of tech mags and blogs agree
That's funny.

Ars Technica called the MBP's USB-C/TB3 Ports "The world's most versatile I/O".

And, if you don't like dongles, you picked the wrong time to jump-ship. Here's the list of (mostly NON-Apple) Laptops that RIGHT NOT support USB-C/TB3:

http://www.ultrabookreview.com/10579-laptops-thunderbolt-3/

And, I believe Dell just released a new new laptio with... (wait for it!) ONLY USB-C PORTS!!! I can't find the article again right now; but I read it sometime last week, honest.

So, enjoy your Windows 10, Spyware Edition. The NSA thanks you for your Purchase!
 
I would be happy to ditch two or three for USB-A and HDMI. Putting my money where my mouth is, after 16 years of apple computers, just got a windows 10 for my work computer. Can't deal with Dongles any more. I still use my macbook air (which is amazing), but it's just out of date. I didn't buy the macbook pro which I was hoping to purchase, because I wasn't happy with it.

So are they crappy, you are right they aren't. Are those ports useful or wanted? NOpE! Majority of tech mags and blogs agree
My first MBAir was a similar rip the bandaid off experience with just 2 USB and a "useless thunderbolt port". Everything required dongles; ethernet, video, many peripherals. It turns out it was my all time best computer purchasing decision. While I have more powerful machines, it continues to be a traveling workhorse that runs the latest OS responsively after more than 5 years.

These MB laptops have a long useful life. What is coming? 4k resolution is the standard for content. 5k is here in wide color. Professional creatives should not be looking at anything less than a 5k external monitor, preferably two.

All this high resolution imagery, video, and rendered animation means external hard drive bandwidth must scale. I'm talking about moving 100 GB files on and off the machine without waiting 30 seconds each. I see 20+ GB/second external storage coming soon. A new drive format and OS level raid support are the big things coming to Mac OS. Apple is the industry leader in high speed SSD. I predict 40 GB/s raid imminent.

They will be expensive at first, but pay for themselves in productivity. They might be worth an hour of salary each day, more in an office with shared use. What current windows laptop is going to drive two 5k displays and a 40 GB/s external drive. None. Their I/O is borderline obsolete. Can any drive 2x5k displays right now?

For everything else, there are some really clean solutions that reduce the number of connections to the laptop to one. Its an improvement over the current scheme of power cord plus running out of USB ports. It just takes a little open minded investment in the future the same way USB-A did in the 90's. USB-C-3.1 is the new standard. Its here. But its anemic compared to what Apple just did with the USB-C/Thunderbolt3 X4 solution.
 
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I'm biting my tongue to answer you seriously.

Your 3.5 hour figure is completely arbitrary. Could you link your source? It has a small % increased battery life. To get an extra 3.5 hours you would have to be doing something that gets you 15 to 18 hours out of the machines to begin with.

Its not the touch bar using up battery. The touch bar model has a higher CPU clock speed, higher memory bus clock speed, more powerful integrated graphics, an extra thunderbolt controller, etc. Its a much more powerful computer that uses a little more electricity.

Think of the non-touch bar model as an updated MBAir with vastly superior display, the new big trackpad, more memory, super fast SSD, and 2xThunderbolt 3 in a smaller chassis, for only ~$150 more than the old MBAir. Its worth it just for the display.

While this was a very reasonable response, and I don't disagree with any of the points you make, the touch bar model also has a smaller battery.

http://www.apple.com/mac/compare/results/?product1=macbook-pro-13&product2=macbook-pro-touchbar-13

upload_2017-1-13_20-22-14.png

As you correctly state, when coupled to a slower processor with less powerful graphics, it seems reasonable to expect noticeably better portability from the non-touchbar models.

It'd be cool if CR published any measured differences, or maybe they did and I missed it?
 
I would be happy to ditch two or three for USB-A and HDMI. Putting my money where my mouth is, after 16 years of apple computers, just got a windows 10 for my work computer. Can't deal with Dongles any more. I still use my macbook air (which is amazing), but it's just out of date. I didn't buy the macbook pro which I was hoping to purchase, because I wasn't happy with it.

So are they crappy, you are right they aren't. Are those ports useful or wanted? NOpE! Majority of tech mags and blogs agree

98fc0b2937c20f16539e82594e96b8d1.jpg


You can choose to use the new MacBook Pro without dongles. Just saying.
 
Exactly. The MacBook Air really had nowhere to go. Adding a retina screen would cripple battery life. Add battery to compensate, you lose the benefits of the machine in the first place, namely portability.

The entry level MBP is what the Air had to become. A mid level performance with good battery life and top screen.

The 12" MacBook was the other direction for th Air to go. Upgrade the screen to a retina and keep the portability...by sacrificing tdp. As an owner of one that I use in a professional capacity (i.e. I use it for paid work in a profession) I can say that the performance was surprisingly good. I don't use it for running Cubase with tons of vst plugins requiring continuous power, but for Office and Adobe suites it works great.

I guess the only other option for the Air was to keep a low res screen. But I don't think that a small screen with a low dpi is high on people's shopping list

I'm biting my tongue to answer you seriously.

Your 3.5 hour figure is completely arbitrary. Could you link your source? It has a small % increased battery life. To get an extra 3.5 hours you would have to be doing something that gets you 15 to 18 hours out of the machines to begin with.

Its not the touch bar using up battery. The touch bar model has a higher CPU clock speed, higher memory bus clock speed, more powerful integrated graphics, an extra thunderbolt controller, etc. Its a much more powerful computer that uses a little more electricity.

Think of the non-touch bar model as an updated MBAir with vastly superior display, the new big trackpad, more memory, super fast SSD, and 2xThunderbolt 3 in a smaller chassis, for only ~$150 more than the old MBAir. Its worth it just for the display.
 
Regardless of the battery issue the new MacBook Pro model is not up to the claims. There are many issues and annoying ones. The keychain has issues, calendar syncing to iPads and iPhones are not consistent, pairing with the new EarPods is problematic not to mention a slew of other simple task issues. Makes me wonder if this release was actually ready for the consumer. Sad indeed.
 
Regardless of the battery issue the new MacBook Pro model is not up to the claims. There are many issues and annoying ones. The keychain has issues, calendar syncing to iPads and iPhones are not consistent, pairing with the new EarPods is problematic not to mention a slew of other simple task issues. Makes me wonder if this release was actually ready for the consumer. Sad indeed.

Guess it's a refurbished 15" MBP for me. Trying to sort out everything in buying a new computer is really getting to be a PITA. Went to the store several times and that clickety keyboard is ridiculous and the touch bar does not do it for my use. Why didnt they make a non touch bar in the 15" model like the 13"?
 
Guess it's a refurbished 15" MBP for me. Trying to sort out everything in buying a new computer is really getting to be a PITA. Went to the store several times and that clickety keyboard is ridiculous and the touch bar does not do it for my use. Why didnt they make a non touch bar in the 15" model like the 13"?

Yes I too went through the same sorting out process of what computer to buy. I have owned Apple products for many many years and this is the first time I was unhappy with a MacBook. Clearly something is not right. I don't think mine is a faulty machine , I do think it's not a quality and well thought out product. Considering the price I should have gone for a leftover new 2015 MBP. At least it is tried and tested. This new 13" MBP with the touch bar is garbage. Truthfully yours.....
 
Well, thank CR for making Apple pay attention. Now, how about those graphics issues?

I don't think the 2016 MBP has a battery issue, it has an OS issue. Every time I check the activity monitor because I thought the battery life was lagging, the computer was using the high performance graphics card. Switch it back by closing everything or restarting, and once on the integrated graphics, battery life exceeds advertised specs. Nothing I am doing at the time would require use of anything but integrated graphics, and it seems coming out of sleep is hit or miss on it picking the correct card.

Other than that and escape being on the touch bar, I consider this a solid machine. I may be in the slim minority on this, but I do like the keyboard.
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I would be happy to ditch two or three for USB-A and HDMI. Putting my money where my mouth is, after 16 years of apple computers, just got a windows 10 for my work computer. Can't deal with Dongles any more. I still use my macbook air (which is amazing), but it's just out of date. I didn't buy the macbook pro which I was hoping to purchase, because I wasn't happy with it.

So are they crappy, you are right they aren't. Are those ports useful or wanted? NOpE! Majority of tech mags and blogs agree

98fc0b2937c20f16539e82594e96b8d1.jpg


You can choose to use the new MacBook Pro without dongles. Just saying.


The same thread exists in all the complaints about dongles -- "I want an updated computer but it has to be able to connect all my soon to be outdated stuff".
 
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The same thread exists in all the complaints about dongles -- "I want an updated computer but it has to be able to connect all my soon to be outdated stuff".
Exactly. Pretend its 1990 and its time to make the leap to USB-A. Or wait and dont be first. But stop complaining about the best laptop I/O ever.
 
Update on battery life:

As a reminder when I first got the 2016 13" MBPTB the battery life was really bad, 3-4 hours max.

With the two latest Betas (currently 10.12.3 Beta (16D25a)) my battery life is 8 - 12 hours running WIFI, BT, Safari, Word, Xcode, and video.

They fixed something which was causing the CPU to run full speed ahead when it didn't have to.

I'm really enjoying the latest machine!
 
No, it is not clear. What is clear is that every other person who has commented besides you and him feel the same way that I do. I suggest that you learn proper English grammar.
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To be fair, the menu is not at all hidden. It's actually fairly visible under the Develop menu, which is also fairly visible. However, I take issue with some other parts of your post. They could not emulate a scenario at their server's end as the very scenario they were emulating was loading new pages for the first time, something a server cannot tell a machine to do at the server's end. If you come from a scientific background, you should know that it is important to publish weird results as long as you note that the results are weird - which CR did. The only negligent thing that CR did was to not publish their testing process, which I agree that they should've. You cannot make a recommendation on inconsistent results, which is what CR followed - they did not say "the new MacBook Pro has a bad battery life" - instead they said that they couldn't recommend the tMBP based on inconsistent battery results. Now, as a secondary note, I do take issue with their testing process - most users will not diverge from the defaults and so they should strive to test using the default settings
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Why does it have be fixed at all though? It's fairly clear that the time estimate is based on you continuing to use the machine in the manner that you're using it currently. Obviously the time remaining changes if I change my usage - Apple should've done what they usually do with user complaints and wait it out to see what's reasonable to change.
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It's been fixed in the latest beta and unless you enabled that option, it isn't affecting your machine. Btw, what do you usually do on that machine?
[doublepost=1484351486][/doublepost]
Then next time spend longer than 10 sec. on proper English grammar
[doublepost=1484351996][/doublepost]
Are CR's procedures more rigorous than Apple's? From this report it sounds like it is ac

No, they don't. Apple specifically says that they keep all the defaults as they are, except where they make note of where there aren't specific defaults (screen brightness, etc.).
[doublepost=1484352170][/doublepost]
Quite a few more than a dozen in a million. How many web developers are out there? Probably thousands if not many more?
[doublepost=1484352439][/doublepost]
I'm a developer and I'm a) a college student (well, alumni now, but a student at the time of release) b) those cables cost quite a bit more than $19 at regular retail price but most importantly c) don't want to deal with the hassle of carrying so many cables.
There was nothing wrong with the grammar. I could have possible been clearer when saying "At least this is fixed now but this doesn't tell the story for Chrome users". But maybe "tell the story for" means "solve the issues for" in some regions. I'll spend however long it takes, maybe it should be others that spend longer than 2 seconds reading my post.
 
Regardless of the battery issue the new MacBook Pro model is not up to the claims. There are many issues and annoying ones. The keychain has issues, calendar syncing to iPads and iPhones are not consistent, pairing with the new EarPods is problematic not to mention a slew of other simple task issues. Makes me wonder if this release was actually ready for the consumer. Sad indeed.

I think the issues you're describing are mostly or completely software-related. I have problems on my iMacs running Sierra as well as on my 2016 MBP. IMO, Apple's yearly OS updates have made things worse—they add features that don't make much of a difference while introducing new bugs and not fixing existing ones.
 
Consumer Reports say MacBook Pro battery performance is inconsistent. Apple sucks.

Consumer Reports say MacBook Pro battery performance is awesome. Consumer Reports sucks.



Hahahahaha! Ok, perhaps not the exact same cry babies, but in most cases quite likely. I can't be bothered to go post hunting. If my life was filled with that much misery I'd probably end it. Then come back as a ghost to complain how being dead sucks :D
 
Yeah, cause it was thier fault ....the consumers fault....well everyone else's fault that it was apples bug. Let's completely ignore the fact that apple "fixed" the issue to pass these tests.

You are the guy that would blame the anti doping tests in sports, when you favourite athelete returned for the second test and passed. ;)

Zero objectively.

How bout this... Stick to the TOPIC. Lately everybody here veers off the side of the road, plunges 500 feet into an ABYSS.

Consumer Reports DOES NOT do a great job testing products period. And you'd know if you were an actual "paying" member like I am. Sadly it at one time (before you were born most likely) was a reputable dependable organization but like the rest of the media they no longer are willing to put their neck on the line because of "pressures" to be PC.
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To be honest: They used a secret Safari setting to run the software in a way that was intended to simulate heavy users. That's not unreasonable. Unfortunately there was a bug that caused really bad battery life when _simulating_ heavy use, which didn't happen with _real_ heavy use. This is most likely an unlucky coincidence.

Although I must say, you shouldn't run tests where the machine is deliberately set up to behave worse than it could. Like when Fusion drives were introduced, that was a nightmare for benchmarks: Up to some point the drive is as fast as SSD, go beyond that and it is as slow as a spinning drive. People going beyond that point shouldn't buy a fusion drive but SSD; people not going to that point should buy Fusion. So what is a benchmark going to do? Whatever it does, it reports totally unrealistic results for half the potential customers.

Precisely why nearly everything in life these days comes with this...

An *.

I'm gonna say this again... My first Mac was a Mac IIci. It's processor was a Motorola 68030 @ 25 MHz.

It's base price was only $6200 when I bought it. I also had a Apple LASERWRITER Printer -- it's base price was -- are you ready for this --- $6500 and had a Motorola 68000 CPU running at 12 MHz, 512 kB of workspace RAM...
 
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