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Savor

Suspended
Jun 18, 2010
3,742
918
You should leave the Apple bashing to the resident experts.




Where do he say anything about market share? He is correct, Windows exists because of Apple.



For all intents and purposes, they didn't as no one bought them. Toshiba, HP, etc. all tried to shoehorn a PC into a tablet form factor and failed miserably, time and time again. What we call a tablet today would not exist without Apple.



Are you kidding me? Nokia's success isn't even close to Apple's and we won't even mention where Nokia is today. Can you really say with a straight face that Nokia has impacted people's lives more than Apple. Let's see - mobile phones vs. PCs for all, iPod, iPhone, iPad.
Sucked into the Apple magnetic field that they invented everything first, eh? Let go of the Kool-Aid.

Apple is now getting sued by Samsung for wireless-related patents. There were other companies in the cell phone industry BEFORE iPhone came along. Apple became petty with patents, so Sammy decided to get petty with it.

What Apple has done was take other ideas from companies. They copied Xerox. Most touchscreen innovations come from their buyout of FingerWorks. Most of the fresh ideas come from start-ups. Even Steve Jobs admitted in a 1996 interview that he takes other's ideas. He molded his company to be The Beatles and their was a lawsuit from Apple Records vs Apple Computer that lasted years. They took the iPhone name which Cisco already had. They took video calling that has existed since 2003-2004 and called it FaceTime. iOS5 is already taking ideas from BBM, Android, and the jailbreak dev community.

Sales can mean alot to developers, but to me, it is like comparing the YouTube views between Justin Bieber vs Iron Maiden. The latter can have far less views, but it doesn't mean it is any worse because they aren't as popular. Popularity doesn't equal quality. This applies to Mac vs PC. Macs are better but they just aren't that popular. But since Jobs is so charismatic (which he is) and so convincing, he makes you think everything Apple has done is magical and revolutionary. They pretend they invented everything and then sue anyone because they honestly think they did. Do you see Microsoft bragging in their keynote they sold 450M of Windows 7? That is insane numbers. Only Apple boast about numbers. Sales of WP7 is more than double than people who have iTunes accounts. So you tell me, which is far more dominating in their respective industry? Once Windows 8 is out next year, that is over 400M sold again after just two years.
 

rdowns

macrumors Penryn
Jul 11, 2003
27,397
12,520
Sucked into the Apple magnetic field that they invented everything first, eh? Let go of the Kool-Aid.

Apple is now getting sued by Samsung for wireless-related patents. There were other companies in the cell phone industry BEFORE iPhone came along. Apple became petty with patents, so Sammy decided to get petty with it.

What Apple has done was take other ideas from companies. They copied Xerox. Most touchscreen innovations come from their buyout of FingerWorks. Most of the fresh ideas come from start-ups. Even Steve Jobs admitted in a 1996 interview that he takes other's ideas. He molded his company to be The Beatles and their was a lawsuit from Apple Records vs Apple Computer that lasted years. They took the iPhone name which Cisco already had. They took video calling that has existed since 2003-2004 and called it FaceTime. iOS5 is already taking ideas from BBM, Android, and the jailbreak dev community.

Sales can mean alot to developers, but to me, it is like comparing the YouTube views between Justin Bieber vs Iron Maiden. The latter can have far less views, but it doesn't mean it is any worse because they aren't as popular. Popularity doesn't equal quality. This applies to Mac vs PC. Macs are better but they just aren't that popular. But since Jobs is so charismatic (which he is) and so convincing, he makes you think everything Apple has done is magical and revolutionary. They pretend they invented everything and then sue anyone because they honestly think they did. Do you see Microsoft bragging in their keynote they sold 450M of Windows 7? That is insane numbers. Only Apple boast about numbers. Sales of WP7 is more than double than people who have iTunes accounts. So you tell me, which is far more dominating in their respective industry? Once Windows 8 is out next year, that is over 400M sold again after just two years.


Nice screed but what does it have to do with anything I said? Where did I say Apple invented these things?
 

Mousse

macrumors 68040
Apr 7, 2008
3,465
6,667
Flea Bottom, King's Landing
Obviously Tim Cook is competent and all that but... He seems to be the dry corporate-suit type no? The keynote just won't be the same without Jobs. Thoughts?

So Tim Cook isn't all smoke and mirrors. Big deal. He knows how to run a company. He kept :apple: profitable while Jobs was down for the count. So you think Cook is gonna pull a Maximus, "Are you not entertained?! Are you not entertained!?!" Leave marketing to the marketing guys. He just needs to be the man behind the curtain.
 

Hellhammer

Moderator emeritus
Dec 10, 2008
22,164
582
Finland
Are you kidding me? Nokia's success isn't even close to Apple's and we won't even mention where Nokia is today. Can you really say with a straight face that Nokia has impacted people's lives more than Apple. Let's see - mobile phones vs. PCs for all, iPod, iPhone, iPad.

It doesn't matter where Nokia is today, as we don't know where Apple will be in 2020. Nokia was very successful in the late 90s and early 2000s, kind of like Apple is today. I can really say it with a straight face that a mobile phone has impacted my life far more than an iPad or any other Apple device.

And since when have $999 computers been for everyone? It's the sub-$500 PCs that really sell, and that is why Windows has the market share they have.
 

AppleScruff1

macrumors G4
Feb 10, 2011
10,026
2,949
Apple will be better under Cook than it was under Jobs. He won't let his ego get in the way like Steve did.
 

rdowns

macrumors Penryn
Jul 11, 2003
27,397
12,520
It doesn't matter where Nokia is today, as we don't know where Apple will be in 2020. Nokia was very successful in the late 90s and early 2000s, kind of like Apple is today. I can really say it with a straight face that a mobile phone has impacted my life far more than an iPad or any other Apple device.

And since when have $999 computers been for everyone? It's the sub-$500 PCs that really sell, and that is why Windows has the market share they have.


Nokia's success was never close to the level that Apple has achieved. The fact is Apple, RIM and Android has hurt them badly. Apple has 3 of 4 businesses where they are the market leader.

I wasn't referring to $999 MacBooks. I was referring to the Apple II which was the first mass marketed computer for individuals. As for $999 MacBooks, seems someone is buying them as Apple's PC growth has outpaced the entire PC industry for more than 4 years now.
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
Apple will be better under Cook than it was under Jobs. He won't let his ego get in the way like Steve did.

I am thinking the same way along your lines.

Jobs help bring the company back from death but it passed the point were his strong arm control was not healthy for the long term in Apple.
I am hoping Cooks stop the bleeding in the markets that kept Apple afloat during the dark times instead of Jobs FU to that same group.

Right now Apple is pretty much nearly a complete consumer company. While that is great for profits at the same time it is very risky because what is hot today can easily be cold tomorrow. While Apple is hot and has been for a while in the consumer market that market can just as easy turn cold on them and they already thrown away any fall backs to keep them going.
This means getting back in to the pro market it. Getting into the enterprise market and getting some strong hold there.
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
I am thinking the same way along your lines.

Jobs help bring the company back from death but it passed the point were his strong arm control was not healthy for the long term in Apple.

If only there were numbers to support your statement. Once again, there aren't any. If you're this worried about Apple and if you were that critical of Apple under Jobs, then you should sure as hell be worried sick about folks like RIM, Acer, HP, etc. They aren't doing a fraction as well as Apple, yet their lousy, backward strategies somehow go unquestioned.
I am hoping Cooks stop the bleeding in the markets that kept Apple afloat during the dark times instead of Jobs FU to that same group.

Apple doesn't play in dead/unprofitable markets. Apple creates tech for everyone. They either address the wider base or they're asking for trouble. Others address a very wide base as well, but Apple keeps strict control over their licensing which means they can then go ahead and achieve a level of differentiation that is unmatched in the industry.

Those "dark times" of the 90s represent markets that have changed radically over the years. The markets which Apple plays in today and makes their most money from today are actually the ones that matter for everyone, in terms of future growth.
Right now Apple is pretty much nearly a complete consumer company.

Exactly what they should be.
While that is great for profits

Which is really the only reason to run a business.
at the same time it is very risky

There is virtually nothing in the tech industry that isn't risky. For ways to handle and manage risk, just look at what Apple is doing.
because what is hot today can easily be cold tomorrow.

The business you're in today can be reinvented tomorrow. Everyone must reinvent themselves. Tech is changing. Even specialized, niche markets. There is no niche market that is today immune from the sea-changes that take place in the wider consumer markets. It all filters and branches outward to niche segments.

And those niche segments are also changing, and are being integrated with the wider consumer segments. The average person a few years ago would be hard-pressed to do any advanced level of photo-editiing, especially without purchasing ridiculously expensive software and having to put up with serious learning curves.

Now, in the span of only a few years, look at the kind of power that has been put into Joe Average's hands. It's incredible. You can even do, with some iOS apps, things that were a few years ago only possible with much more complex and expensive software.

The line between "Pro" and "Consumer" has been blurred to an unprecedented degree. Hence, today we have what is known as the "Prosumer." And these Prosumers are growing in number and strength every day. Guess who is serving them? Apple. Apple is one of the major driving forces in the Prosumer market. The Pro market is dwindling. The Prosumer market is expanding rapidly.

The skills that at one point were hard-earned and rare (Pro skills) are being steadily, slowly but surely, acquired by even average users with a little time and curiosity. As tech becomes much more accessible to Joe Average, those skills that were once prized in the industry will eventually become commonplace. What took a lot of skill yesterday can be easily accomplished and on a larger scale today, due to increased exposure and access that Joe Average, and for that matter you and I, are enjoying. It all filters down due to increased access.

While Apple is hot and has been for a while in the consumer market that market can just as easy turn cold on them and they already thrown away any fall backs to keep them going.

You keep saying this. Like, constantly. Why has the consumer market not turned cold on Apple for all these years (while it has chewed up other players)? Apple simply did what was necessary to create great products and keep up development, and re-invent parts of their business when necessary.

You act as if the brain-trust at Apple are completely oblivious that their company must change with the times. This is obvious, elementary stuff.

Want to stave off stagnation? Ok. Do what you need to to avoid stagnation. It's part of doing business.

This means getting back in to the pro market it.

No, it does not. The 'Pro" market is not the same market that Apple "got out of" years ago. It has changed. And it is no longer a market that can sustain anyone exclusively. At all. Especially with the Rise of the Prosumer. The traditional "Pro" market is slowly dying. It is, rather, changing. It is becoming integrated with the consumer market, and Prosumers are making it happen.

Retreating into what were the specialized standbys of yesteryear is pretty insane and a recipe for serious limitation in the scope and breadth of anyone's business. Because there in time will be no specialized, niche markets at all in consumer tech, and that includes the "Pro" segment. We will all have access to them, with better tools that will be far easier to use.

Getting into the enterprise market and getting some strong hold there.

This I can perhaps agree with. It's already happening. We need to keep in mind, however, that the enterprise market is usually a few steps back from the consumer market, not even counting the fact that it is far different in scope and purpose.

Apple is already making headway here, via tech that is being introduced and pushed at a grass-roots level. It isn't coming from traditional IT departments. The enterprise, in a few key instances, is being forced to integrate the tools that employees *want* to use. There is a silent movement going on, against the dictates of traditional IT departments.
 
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MacHamster68

macrumors 68040
Sep 17, 2009
3,251
5
Did you really just compare jobs to the man who put an automobile in every household in the United States? the inventor of the assembly line? the man who put the nation to work on a salary of $5 a day which at the time was almost double the average salary in the country?

He's good, and he has created some great things but Henry Ford pretty much shaped the world.

so true, after all Ford did want to make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible so his own workers could afford a Tin Lizzy . By the 1920s, the price had fallen to $290
Apple tries to produce the most acceptable quality at the lowest cost possible and sell with the highest possible profit ..someone disagrees ?
Tin Lizzy's didnt get yellow tinted windscreens
or how many production workers at the Apple factory in china can afford a new iMac with their wages , ok i know all of them if they save enough , but how many decades they need to safe up for one ?

other question Henry Ford's ideological approach to Model T design was one of getting it right and then keeping it the same
i loved Apple would do the same thing ,getting it right and keeping it the same,
instead of trying to reinvent the computer new every year and never solve the problems of the year before
maybe Tim Cook gets it right

but yes i agree without Steve Jobs Apple would not exist today and Apple would not make billions of profit for its shareholders

that article shows it well
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-203937.html

i like the last part it became so true ,
in 1997 :
Others fear that Apple could end up completely in Microsoft's camp by deciding to use the NT operating system on its servers. Apple is reportedly planning to come out with network computers that would require high-end servers to function.

sounds pretty much like cloud computing and windows running on Mac's
 
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AppleScruff1

macrumors G4
Feb 10, 2011
10,026
2,949
You'll have to wait another 30 or so years before you see another like Jobs. Thats how often business visionaries like him come along. Before him was Walt Disney, and before that was Henry Ford.

Well, we've had Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Castro, Saddam Hussein, and Steve Jobs in about a 70 year period.
 

boss.king

macrumors 603
Apr 8, 2009
6,133
6,804
Isn't he a dictator like the others?

I wouldn't say he's a dictator, he's loved by the people of Cuba. Also, he's not in power anymore, and as far as I know he was elected for much of the time he was in power. (Btw, I don't think Jobs belongs there either)
 

decafjava

macrumors 603
Feb 7, 2011
5,122
7,169
Geneva
I wouldn't say he's a dictator, he's loved by the people of Cuba. Also, he's not in power anymore, and as far as I know he was elected for much of the time he was in power. (Btw, I don't think Jobs belongs there either)

No kidding, and anyway how many people has Jobs killed? :rolleyes:
 

Hellhammer

Moderator emeritus
Dec 10, 2008
22,164
582
Finland
Remember that this is not PRSI. A discussion concerning world leaders such as Hussein and Castro belongs there. Try to keep this on-topic.
 

mrsir2009

macrumors 604
Sep 17, 2009
7,505
156
Melbourne, Australia
I am thinking the same way along your lines.

Jobs help bring the company back from death but it passed the point were his strong arm control was not healthy for the long term in Apple.
I am hoping Cooks stop the bleeding in the markets that kept Apple afloat during the dark times instead of Jobs FU to that same group.

Right now Apple is pretty much nearly a complete consumer company. While that is great for profits at the same time it is very risky because what is hot today can easily be cold tomorrow. While Apple is hot and has been for a while in the consumer market that market can just as easy turn cold on them and they already thrown away any fall backs to keep them going.
This means getting back in to the pro market it. Getting into the enterprise market and getting some strong hold there.

Yay! I wonder if there'll be a back-to-pro keynote sometime down the track?
 

Melrose

Suspended
Dec 12, 2007
7,806
399
Tim is no Steve, but by the same token, Steve is no Tim. I'd take Steve any day of the week, but when he was gone over the last couple years for the health stuff, Tim successfully helmed the company to some of it's greatest earnings and products since Apple was founded.
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
Tim is no Steve, but by the same token, Steve is no Tim. I'd take Steve any day of the week, but when he was gone over the last couple years for the health stuff, Tim successfully helmed the company to some of it's greatest earnings and products since Apple was founded.

This is also true. Can't argue with that.
 

mac jones

macrumors 68040
Apr 6, 2006
3,257
2
It's a problem. A huge problem.

We can go into denial and say " Give peace a chance" or whatever, but it's a problem.

Just take a look at what happened with Microsoft. Whatever you may think, Gates was/is a great man in the tech world. It's just his time came and went and since then it has been Jobs in the spotlight.

The point is. MS has Balmer now. Balmer took over in a similar manner to what is happening at Apple.

nuff said :rolleyes:
 

rdowns

macrumors Penryn
Jul 11, 2003
27,397
12,520
Cook is as responsible for Apple's success as Jobs. Cook is the one responsible for Apple's manufacturing, it's supply chain (which is a huge reason Apple is kicking its competitors ass) and heads up service and support (where Apple has been #1 for years). He may not be the visionary that Jobs is but I don't buy into the Jobs was the only visionary at Apple crap. Cook will serve Apple very well for the next decade or more.
 

Winni

macrumors 68040
Oct 15, 2008
3,207
1,196
Germany.
Cook is no Jobs?

Does that mean we will finally get a mini tower Mac?

Maybe. But I'd be more interested in OS X for EVERY PC. You know, just like Windows, Linux and FreeBSD are available for EVERY PC. After all, the iTunes and App Store supply chain is Apple's true cash cow - the hardware around it is just an added bonus.

----------

It's a problem. A huge problem.

We can go into denial and say " Give peace a chance" or whatever, but it's a problem.

Just take a look at what happened with Microsoft. Whatever you may think, Gates was/is a great man in the tech world. It's just his time came and went and since then it has been Jobs in the spotlight.

The point is. MS has Balmer now. Balmer took over in a similar manner to what is happening at Apple.

nuff said :rolleyes:

Yeah, and the last time I looked, Microsoft was still an extraordinarily successful company. Just like IBM. And --THAT-- is the real problem: Their success is "only" an institutionalized, inherited success. They are no longer companies that the industry is afraid of or looks up to for leadership. They are just too big and too entrenched to completely fail and die.

Apple will now simply go the same route. Without Jobs in control, I don't expect them to come up with "the next big thing".
 
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