Court Rules Apple Can Be Sued for Monopolizing iPhone App Market

[PaulRustad007]

Is this really so hard to understand? There are absolutely NO alternatives to buying IOS(!!!!) apps other than Apple's own app store. With the large market that Apple owns, this IS a problem for customers because there is no competition.

The comparison with IOS vs Android has abolutely nothing to do with it.

Now imagine a world where Windows applications could only be bought from Microsoft. You would be screaming havoc -- even though there are the Mac and Linux. But the fact that there are other operating systems doesn't really help the majority of Windows users, does it?

This lawsuit against Apple is long overdue.

Apple does not sell the apps at all. They only deliver the apps to the phone. Apple does not charge anyone but the developer to have the apps delivered to the phone. This lawsuit is frivolous and only will cost people at lot of $$$ for nothing, and these firms that are suing are getting attention.

 

[I7guy]

Malware is also found in the AppStore on a regular basis. And if you want your credit card data safe then Apple better stores it encrypted somewhere, like in their digital enclave chip so that even malware can not access it.

'cause thing is, malware can even get (and usually will) into your iPhone without an AppStore, e.g. by a security issue in Safari and iOS core that is used by a malicious website you visit.

All without AppStore and Apple's review. Unless you want Apple to review all websites you visit for you, too.

So proper iOS browser and kernel security is the key, not AppStore and review. The former is all that is needed, while the later helps you nothing much.

What does this even have to with the thread topic?

 

[macfacts]

Apple does not sell the apps at all. They only deliver the apps to the phone. Apple does not charge anyone but the developer to have the apps delivered to the phone. This lawsuit is frivolous and only will cost people at lot of $$$ for nothing, and these firms that are suing are getting attention.

If I buy a Sony TV from Bestbuy and decide to return it, do I get a refund from Sony or Bestbuy?

If I buy an iOS app but decide to get a refund, do I gety money back from the developer or Apple?

From another site on this story, a judge has ruled that customers are buying from Apple, not from developers.

"The question before us is whether Plaintiffs purchased their iPhone apps directly from the app developers, or directly from Apple," Judge William A. Fletcher wrote in the Appeals Court ruling issued Thursday. ...
Apple argued that consumers purchase apps indirectly through Apple. It compared its business to the owner of a shopping mall that "leases physical space to various stores." In other words, if the App Store is like a mall, app distributors are like stores that sell their goods directly to consumers.

Fletcher, however, wrote that Apple's analogy is "unconvincing."

"In the case before us, third-party developers of iPhone apps do not have their own 'stores," he wrote. "Indeed, part of the anti-competitive behavior alleged by Plaintiffs is that, far from allowing iPhone app developers to sell through their own 'stores,' Apple specifically forbids them to do so, instead requiring them to sell iPhone apps only through Apple's App Store."​

 

[I7guy]

If I buy a Sony TV from Bestbuy and decide to return it, do I get a refund from Sony or Bestbuy?

If I buy an iOS app but decide to get a refund, do I gety money back from the developer or Apple?

From another site on this story, a judge has ruled that customers are buying from Apple, not from developers.

"The question before us is whether Plaintiffs purchased their iPhone apps directly from the app developers, or directly from Apple," Judge William A. Fletcher wrote in the Appeals Court ruling issued Thursday. ...
Apple argued that consumers purchase apps indirectly through Apple. It compared its business to the owner of a shopping mall that "leases physical space to various stores." In other words, if the App Store is like a mall, app distributors are like stores that sell their goods directly to consumers.

Fletcher, however, wrote that Apple's analogy is "unconvincing."

"In the case before us, third-party developers of iPhone apps do not have their own 'stores," he wrote. "Indeed, part of the anti-competitive behavior alleged by Plaintiffs is that, far from allowing iPhone app developers to sell through their own 'stores,' Apple specifically forbids them to do so, instead requiring them to sell iPhone apps only through Apple's App Store."​

All of this can be thrown out door at the very beginning or wind up by taking years and years in a court of law. There will not be any meaningful changes in the ios app store for a long time as a result of this.

 

[StyxMaker]

I don't get why anyone is happy about this. Lower prices aren't everything. As someone who uses Android and iOS, I can tell you first hand that the app experience on iOS is superior to that on Android. Sure there is the occasional app that is better on android, but as a market of apps as a whole, iOS is filled with much better quality apps. The Play Store as well and Amazon App store and other places are flooded with complete trash apps that run slow, are full of ads, and aren't worth the time of day. Many of the apps people complain about being overpriced aren't going to change if other stores are allowed to put out iOS apps. All that will happen is you will see a flood of garbage apps available from multiple sources. Quality apps will still charge a high price if they feel justified in charging it.

My experience would indicate lower prices would not result. When I was using Pocket PCs and Windows Mobile phones the average cost of the apps available was around $30. Competition within the Apple App Store has done more to lower App prices than the 'open market'.

 

[macfacts]

My experience would indicate lower prices would not result. When I was using Pocket PCs and Windows Mobile phones the average cost of the apps available was around $30. Competition within the Apple App Store has done more to lower App prices than the 'open market'.

Apple's app store has opened the market to more devs but I only see mainly cheap apps, no pro apps or Aaa games. I suspect Apple's 30% cut is the roadblock.

Before Apple's app store, smaller devs couldn't do credit card billing, so yeah the app store made it easier for those small devs.

Big companies like EA or Netflix can already do credit card billing and hosting/distribution cheaper than Apple, so those big companies (the ones capable of making pro apps) are reluctant to invest money to make pro iOS apps.

 

[PaulRustad007]

If I buy a Sony TV from Bestbuy and decide to return it, do I get a refund from Sony or Bestbuy?

If I buy an iOS app but decide to get a refund, do I gety money back from the developer or Apple?

From another site on this story, a judge has ruled that customers are buying from Apple, not from developers.

"The question before us is whether Plaintiffs purchased their iPhone apps directly from the app developers, or directly from Apple," Judge William A. Fletcher wrote in the Appeals Court ruling issued Thursday. ...
Apple argued that consumers purchase apps indirectly through Apple. It compared its business to the owner of a shopping mall that "leases physical space to various stores." In other words, if the App Store is like a mall, app distributors are like stores that sell their goods directly to consumers.

Fletcher, however, wrote that Apple's analogy is "unconvincing."

"In the case before us, third-party developers of iPhone apps do not have their own 'stores," he wrote. "Indeed, part of the anti-competitive behavior alleged by Plaintiffs is that, far from allowing iPhone app developers to sell through their own 'stores,' Apple specifically forbids them to do so, instead requiring them to sell iPhone apps only through Apple's App Store."​

Best Buy buys the TV initially from Sony so Best Buy claims ownership until they sell it to a consumer. When you get a a refund for an App Store problem, apple recoups that loss back to the developers. Apple is just a transmission device, like your cable, your internet, your gas utility. Apple holds no ownership of any app that is not theirs specifically. I understand what you are saying, I just gently disagree with this. One question though, who is really behind this lawsuit? And average customer or something a bit more.....conspiratorial? Follow the money and you usually have the answers....

 

[McGiord]

Cydia could argue that they would have made more money if apple didn't clamp down on jailbreaks.

so what is next someone suing Donald Trump for not adopting him? they could had been rich if they were adopted but he refused to
[doublepost=1484514515][/doublepost]or alternative 'medicine' customers suing the hospitals because the practitioners aren't allowed to provide services inside the hospital?

 

[I7guy]

Apple's app store has opened the market to more devs but I only see mainly cheap apps, no pro apps or Aaa games. I suspect Apple's 30% cut is the roadblock.

Before Apple's app store, smaller devs couldn't do credit card billing, so yeah the app store made it easier for those small devs.

Big companies like EA or Netflix can already do credit card billing and hosting/distribution cheaper than Apple, so those big companies (the ones capable of making pro apps) are reluctant to invest money to make pro iOS apps.

So what exactly would Netflix gain by hosting their app directly? I already have a subscription and can access my content on (almost) any device. Their free IOS app gives me access to their content on my phone. As far as EA, 30% of 0 is zero, why would they not make an IOS game.

 

[dk001]

Apple refuses to crack the phones for them.

Same reason for https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...er-iphone-design-officially-reopened.2027394/

That's not politics. The DOJ/FBI tried to use political rhetoric to force Apple's hand. Many police departments and DA's try the same. This is strictly a matter of constitutional rights and personal security. Politics are added in an effort to drive a decision.
[doublepost=1484524197][/doublepost]

@Tinmania y...



those documents and strategies are very complex. That team was prob. not the original team behind what was in place.
And even the original authors must have had to pause and think.

It seems to me Samsung emboldened everyone by blantantly copying and then tried to keep a straight face when telling Apple tough luck, that's the way of the world today.

I wish evryeone would step back to examine the implications at play here.
Why would anyone risk and build anything if it is going to be taken away from them?
Why have we allowed our society to morph into this, in America??? If you didn't know this could be a banana republic somewhere. The "due process" and "fair trial" become a satire.

On Android I can allow use of alternative sources for apps. While I do not routinely do this, there are times when apps are cheaper in another venue, apps arise that are not on the Play Store, or apps that are available in the EU but not in the USA. There are a number of benefits. One of these is cost.
[doublepost=1484524628][/doublepost]

Apple does not set the price in the App store. if the developer wants to offer a sale on their product, they are more than welcome to. Retail stores works a bit differently, where manufacturer's suggests a price (MSRP) and sell it to the retailer for something less than that. If the retailer wants to offer a sale or take a loss, thats on them, the manf. has already been paid. I'm sure its more complicated than that since retailers don't just give up shelf space for free either - prime spot in the physical store costs $$$.

In the case of the App store, the developer sets the price and can change it however and whenever they want. Want a sale - have at it! I'm not sure what good a second app store would do from a pricing perspective. I can see its benefits by letting developers skip the 30% Apple Tax and App Store policies (Private APIs, whatever) but Apple isn't interested in that, and I am not sure a court can compel them to do it, but I'm not a lawyer.

Marketing 101. There are reasons for competition, store layouts, loss leaders, sales, etc ...
You miss all of them.
[doublepost=1484524891][/doublepost]

Still one of the dumbest things I have heard all week, might be the dumbest thing I hear about all year. Sometimes I weep for the stupidity people adhere to. There is no case here, why was this lawsuit allowed in the first place? Stupid stoopid waste of money and time. Should I sue my parents for having a monopoly on my birth?

Are your parents selling things that only work on you or your clone(s)?

 

[garylapointe]

Btw. this 30% commission is really unfair. All the big apps from Google, Facebook, Instagram that generate the most download, bandwidth, and required "review" generate Apple nothing but 99$ a year for the company's developer account.

While all the small apps from indy developers for games, tools and such are financed directly by the app sales and net in Apple additional 30%. And why should those not be allowed to sell directly from the websites like for Mac, PC and other platforms?

Also do you have an idea how much 30% is for a smaller software house? This are a couple of jobs that they can not pay in favor of Apple netting in a couple of more billions overall.

And if you want to give your HUGE app away, you can do it just like Facebook.

Yes, it's 30 cents for every dollar.

Do you know what it costs a small software house to market an app? To set up a payment system? How much they lose to piracy? This is all taken care for them. For a very easy calculated specific cost.

To get developer tools, set up a store front, register your business with apps, get software protection, (unlimited?) items submitted to the store and some (limited) support from Apple is $99 a year.

To top it off, you know all of this before you bother to try and write your apps, this isn't some secret that once you're done it's (gasp!) 30%. You don't need to develop for this closed platform if you don't want to...

 

[dk001]

And if you want to give your HUGE app away, you can do it just like Facebook.

Yes, it's 30 cents for every dollar.

Do you know what it costs a small software house to market an app? To set up a payment system? How much they lose to piracy? This is all taken care for them. For a very easy calculated specific cost.

To get developer tools, set up a store front, register your business with apps, get software protection, (unlimited?) items submitted to the store and some (limited) support from Apple is $99 a year.

To top it off, you know all of this before you bother to try and write your apps, this isn't some secret that once you're done it's (gasp!) 30%. You don't need to develop for this closed platform if you don't want to...

So miss the point.... Amazon would if they could .... Best Buy would ion they could .... Cydia would if they could .... Universities would if they could .... I am sure that there are plenty of others that would also .... and these already have all the infrastructure in place.

 

[Gav2k]

This is all a pos lol it's like forcing Armani to sell another brand in there store.

Apple offer the portal it's the devs choice to submit to that or not.

 

[I7guy]

So miss the point.... Amazon would if they could .... Best Buy would ion they could .... Cydia would if they could .... Universities would if they could .... I am sure that there are plenty of others that would also .... and these already have all the infrastructure in place.

So basically the big monied companies or a j/b App Store. Universities can get an installation certificate. The way the App Store works today actually levels the playing field.

this will take years to come to a conclusion.

 

[Radon87000]

So let me repeat, the developer sets the price, Apple does not set the price. Apples cut has nothing to do with the developer sets the price.

And Apple gets the cut and the developer recovers his submission and developement fee from YOU.The developer has no choice but to use Apple's distribution network.On Windows or Android,there are multiple distribution platforms and everyone is given a choice.

But wait, you yourself said you treat rumors as facts, so removal of jack on the s8 must be true.

In other words, moving the goal posts and hyperbole in the same post.

That rumor was confirmed false as the rear case of the S8 just leaked and the jack is present

 

[I7guy]

And Apple gets the cut and the developer recovers his submission and developement fee from YOU.The developer has no choice but to use Apple's distribution network.On Windows or Android,there are multiple distribution platforms and everyone is given a choice.

That's not the case. At any rate there won't be a resolution for 10 years at least if the case isn't tossed.

That rumor was confirmed false as the rear case of the S8 just leaked and the jack is present

A false rumor equal fact, that's funny actuall. Maybe the galaxy will finally be able to beat the iPhone in the deep water test by everythingapple.

 

[Radon87000]

That's not the case.

Then what are the facts as per you?

A false rumor equal fact, that's funny actuall. Maybe the galaxy will finally be able to beat the iPhone in the deep water test by everythingapple.

In addition the blog in question also confirmed the render from internal sources if you bothered to read the link on why the first rumor was false and why this one is as good as fact

"
We can now say with a high degree of confidence that the Galaxy S8 will have a 3.5mm headphone jack. This information, I assure you, is not based on phone cases or renders thereof. The source has also proved reliable in the past.

As to where rumors of the no-headphone-jack thing got started? Well, I'm as guilty as anyone, and for some time there was operating on information suggesting the jack was being removed as well. We never posted these rumors to AP, though, because we didn't feel confident in the information at the time. While I can't share specifics without potentially compromising sources, I can say that details around the phone's hardware were still developing around the time Sammobile's rumor dropped.

So, if you were hinging your S8 interest on the presence of the trusty 3.5mm port, we think you can be at ease - it doesn't sound like it's going anywhere.'


Maybe the iPhone and Galaxy will take part in a test which is not rigged?Who knows

 

[I7guy]

Then what are the facts as per you?

This "suit" is from a consumer, not developer point of view.

In addition the blog in question also confirmed the render from internal sources if you bothered to read the link on why the first rumor was false and why this one is as good as fact

We'll see.

Maybe the iPhone and Galaxy will take part in a test which is not rigged?Who knows

they already did according to some. It would be nice to have the galaxy 8 win, wouldn't it? Then it would be a fair test?

 

[macfacts]

That's not the case. At any rate there won't be a resolution for 10 years at least if the case isn't tossed.
...

I understand what you are going through, you're at a loss of words, you can't believe Apple can be wrong. You keep repeating and are hoping this court case takes years.

 

[I7guy]

I understand what you are going through, you're at a loss of words, you can't believe Apple can be wrong. You keep repeating and are hoping this court case takes years.

When a cogent argument is nowhere to be found, bring out the hyperbole. It always works, kinda, sorta.

So, in your expert opinion, how long should it take, given this was a continuation from 2012, almost 5 years later. Do you believe court cases of this magnitude get decided in the snap of a finger? Or in general does it seem to the case that it takes years with the appeals and retrials?

 

[Radon87000]

This "suit" is from a consumer, not developer point of view.

Still the same logic.By not allowing me to purchase from multiple stores I am being compelled to follow what Apple deems is right for me.I use Steam,Origin and GOG on Windows for games depending on the terms of trade.The same on Android.I decide where to get an app.Not Microsoft or Google just because I am using their OS

they already did according to some. It would be nice to have the galaxy 8 win, wouldn't it? Then it would be a fair test?

I will only believe the following

1)An Android channel showing the iPhone win
2)An neutral user channel showing the iPhone win

Conversly I will only believe an S8 win if shown by an Apple channel or a neutral user.

I have used this viewpoint successfully with almost all electronics in my life as it eliminates any presence of bias

 

[I7guy]

Still the same logic.By not allowing me to purchase from multiple stores I am being compelled to follow what Apple deems is right for me.I use Steam,Origin and GOG on Windows for games depending on the terms of trade.The same on Android.I decide where to get an app

It's not the same logic to me, but that's up to a court of law to decide. It is what it is until it changes. The same as downgrading the version of IOS, all the forum complaining goes to deaf ears until apple changes its' policy.

I will only believe the following

1)An Android channel showing the iPhone win
2)An neutral user channel showing the iPhone win

Conversly I will only believe an S8 win if shown by an Apple channel or a neutral user

you've already said all youtube videos can be altered; that is a good assumption to follow when a video proves your talking points to be incorrect.

 

[Radon87000]

It's not the same logic to me, but that's up to a court of law to decide.

Or maybe you just dont have a point to argue.I dont understand whats so complex about this case.Why should Apple hold monopoly on apps on iOS when Microsoft or Google dont on their platforms?Its really simple.Its like Microsoft banning all external Windows apps and telling developers to put em on the store.This would result in people taking out the pitchforks for Microsoft but its fine for Apple?

you've already said all youtube videos can be altered; that is a good assumption to follow when a video proves your talking points to be incorrect.

Never said all of em are modified.Just the ones run by fan channels.Just follow the channel of the other side for a proper unbiased review

 

[I7guy]

Or maybe you just dont have a point to argue.I dont understand whats so complex about this case.Why should Apple hold monopoly on apps on iOS when Microsoft or Google dont on their platforms

I don't need to have a point to argue, this is apples battle and apple needs the point to argue. We can throw around hypotheticals until the cows come home, but nothing can change until after the trial, even if that.

Never said all of em are modified.Just the ones run by fan channels.Just follow the channel of the other side for a proper unbiased review

It's great that you get to choose the universe of videos you deem are modified, which are essentially those that don't fit your narrative.

 

[vladi]

This is all a pos lol it's like forcing Armani to sell another brand in there store.

Apple offer the portal it's the devs choice to submit to that or not.

If they choose not to go through the AppStore cause they think 30% is a lot especially if you offer subscription service where do they publish it?