COVID/Coronavirus non-political DISCUSSION thread

[Hieveryone]

So clearly it's all still being discussed. Which makes the earlier statement about not knowing that it's still being discussed that much more odd.

Yeah I’m glad people are still concerned about it and talking about it. If scientists and doctors were to give up, that would not be good! Although I couldn’t blame scientists and doctors for hitting up the bars if they wanted to for a break. I’m sure it’s hard work!

 

[C DM]

I don’t remember much from here or any forum on the Internet for that matter

I didn’t realize people were still discussing corona.

I’m not interested in knowing about it anymore, as I have lost interest and moved on. I no longer pay attention to it in the news or on the Internet bc that’s pretty much the only place it exists for me personally, even though I get that it’s still around, I just don’t keep up with it anymore.

The latest is that schools are open and kids are getting it and having to quarantine. There's even a pic online of a PACKED hallway at some high school (I'm guessing it's a high school not sure), and the kid got suspended for posting it, but then they reversed the suspension.

I just read they’re doing some studies though on some treatments. Something about plasma.

Yeah I’m glad people are still concerned about it and talking about it.

Not really sure what else there is to say.

 

[TiggrToo]

The pandemic FEELS like it’s only online, even though I know the threat is in the real world

Yet I grew up knowing everything important going on in the world with just newspapers and Newsround on kids TV.

You don't need the internet to enforce the knowledge of the risk, the risk alone is enough to enforce itself.

 

[bunnspecial]

The school where I both got my masters degree and have worked for the past 5 years (up until this past Friday) is going full steam ahead on the fall semester. I think it's entirely money motivated, and there's a lot of reservations about it among faculty and staff.

Despite universal mask rules, rules against parties (like that has ever stopped anyone at any school whatsoever), and requirements to self-isolate 14 days before returning to campus, I still see an imminent outbreak.

I suspect all colleges/universities that have gone back to full in-person this fall will become the new epicenters in the next few months.

After all, one off-campus party of just student athletes lead to 29 positive tests...

U of L dismisses three men's soccer players after party leads to COVID-19 outbreak

After a Saturday party leads to 29 COVID-19 cases and a temporary shutdown of four programs, U of L dismissed three men's soccer players, suspended three more.

www.courier-journal.com

 

[bunnspecial]

I bet it feels real to the 20 something female who contracted Covid and needed a double lung transplant.

This virus is a lung eater. Check out the scarring and damage the virus did to one of her lungs. If that doesn't make it real, nothing will.

1st-Known U.S. Lung Transplant For COVID-19 Patient Performed In Chicago

A young woman in her 20s was healthy before the coronavirus struck her. After two months on a ventilator and ECMO device, her transplanted lungs are now working.

www.npr.org

As bad as that case is(no question about it) this is just what makes it so scary for me even though I'm in a relatively low risk age group.

I have one friend who had it who "just" lost her sense of taste and smell for about two weeks and had a hacking cough that lasted about a week. She's definitely in the mild case category, and from what I understand her case is typical of a lot of symptomatic positives.

There have been 90 year olds who came through it just fine, and teenagers who died or nearly so. This disease has been around ~9 months now, and we're just starting to see the potential for long term complications in people who have otherwise recovered. We just don't know about long term heart damage, lung damage, blood clots, infertility, and a whole laundry list of other things that are just now beginning to appear.

Yes, I'd PROBABLY be fine in that I'd live if I had it, but the serious non-deadly complications still make it enough for me to pay attention.

I mentioned somewhere else on here talking to a friend who got kicked in the rear hard by it. He was technically "mild" in that he never had to be hospitalized, but there again it knocked both he and his wife out of commission and the sickest either of them have ever been for probably 6 weeks, and he still feels like he's not completely over it.

 

[C DM]

... it doesn’t FEEL like ...

It all keeps coming back to the same thing over and over again: perception vs. reality.

Again, doesn't seem like going in the same circles gets anywhere...unless that is the objective.

 

[shadow puppet]

We just don't know about long term heart damage, lung damage, blood clots, infertility, and a whole laundry list of other things that are just now beginning to appear.

This is the part that scares me almost as much as ending up on a ventilator.

No, I'm not living my life in fear even though I do have a suppressed immune system due to my arthritis biologic. To me, it's not worth being ignorant about this. Or even worse, if I was asymptomatic, gave it to someone and they didn't survive. I would live with guilt for the rest of my life.

 

[bunnspecial]

This is the part that scares me almost as much as ending up on a ventilator.

No, I'm not living my life in fear even though I do have a suppressed immune system due to my arthritis biologic. To me, it's not worth being ignorant about this. Or even worse, if I was asymptomatic, gave it to someone and they didn't survive. I would live with guilt for the rest of my life.

To your second point-yes I have a huge fear of getting a case that's not necessarily bad, but passing it on to my parents(who are both over 70) or someone else I may come into contact with.

To the first-I agree.

BTW, I've heard analogies-maybe here or maybe elsewhere-to the World Trade Center first responders and site workers. Nearly 20 years after the fact, that is a terrorist attack where we can still see health affects(some of them only now coming to light) from the sheer amount of pulverized junk in the air they inhaled. It's not the same thing by any means, but just a thought on how even if you get COVID and seem "fine" now, you may not be in 10 years.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I think the problem is that despite the numbers, the horror stories, the articles about how bad it is all over the Internet, and the TV talking about it nonstop, people aren’t really influenced by it. It’s almost as if it really has no influence in deterring your average American from living their lives. You would think people would say “OMG 5 million cases I’m staying inside” but it feels like people are just shrugging their shoulders and going outside anyway...

That’s Americans for you , nothing surprises me there in all honesty lol.

 

[BenAigen]

To whom it may concern.

 

[Hieveryone]

To whom it may concern.


View attachment 942787

I don’t think that mirror is big enough to fit the millions of Americans who are against wearing masks lol

 

[michael9891]

Normal for me is taking trips abroad, going to concerts, watching live sport in stadiums packed with tens of thousands of people and not seeing restrictions and closures of businesses everywhere.

Can only assume that those who think life is 100% normal live very sheltered lives.

I'm seeing stories in the UK of people classed as obese might have to isolate if another big wave of cases hits.

 

[bunnspecial]

Something that seems to be lost on some folks is the concept of moderation.

I'm not hunkering down at home. I'm doing a lot of the things I did pre-pandemic. I was physically back at work last week. I've been out to eat some. I've been supporting the small, locally owned, non-essential business as needed. I don't drink and never have been a bar person, so needless to say I haven't been doing that.

The only thing I haven't done is go physically back to church. My church isn't requiring masks(just doing the every other pew thing) and given how high risk churches are for spreading, I'm not going to take a chance.

The key is I'm approaching it differently. When I'm out in public, my mask goes on as soon as I get out of the car and stays on until I get back. Restaurants are only with my fiancée, and I wear a mask unless I'm sitting at the table. BTW, my state is capping restaurants at 25% for now, so tables are spread way out.

There's room to do that kind of stuff while also going about it safely. It's not a black and white "stay at home" or "act like before"-it's more an evaluate your own risk level and do it as smartly and safely as possible. For crying out loud just wear your mask and keep your distance from other people, and if you go somewhere where it's not happening, turn around and leave(I've done it).

 

[TiggrToo]

Time’s come for a “Friends of Covid” button.

The risks are not being overplayed, the risks are not understood. If you think it’s bad now then get ready for fall.

Right now, the Flu affects an average of 1.28 other people. Covid is somewhere between 2 and 3.

If that means nothing, then try this on for size:

Compare the number of people the average person will affect after 8 levels. That's horrifying...

The 2019 Flu killed an average of 331 people per day worldwide - a 5 month period. There's a vaccine that probably saved many many more lives.

Covid has claimed 739 people per day just in the US in just THREE MONTHS.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

For an intelligent and interesting and impressive explanation of the significance of how the 'r' number is used to define the rate of transmission & infection of this corona virus, might I suggest that those who find this stuff of interest take a look at the clear, and crisp explanation given by Dr Angela Merkel, (a woman, a scientist, and a Prime Minister of a large European country, Germany).

 

[Doc C]

@Hieveryone :
Do you wear a seatbelt?
Do you stop at a red light?
These laws/rules are in place to protect the public (in part, from people with attitudes like the ones you have expressed.) Masks and social distancing serve the same purpose.

Your logic suggests that I should have the right to drive with my eyes closed because my personal rights supersede the rights of those around me.



I do have a few comments regarding some of the things you have said (this is necessarily incomplete, as an exhaustive list would take up far more of my time than it would be worth):

You questioned whether a lockdown helps -
For people who actually give a **** about anyone other than themselves, it does. Italy is a perfect example of that.

You questioned whether the numbers are accurate -
In fact, they are not. Many deaths due to COVID were not captured because people died at home before being tested. So the actual death rate is likely much higher.

You did some simple math and suggested that the infection rate and mortality rate are both low -

By your suggestion, the infection rate would be zero if no testing was done. I will assume that you recognize the fallacy of this. The test positivity rate in the US is currently 7.6% (which is almost 70% higher than it was two months ago.) This means that one in 14 people tested have COVID. By the same logic that you presented, this would translate into almost 25 million cases in the US [Note that I'm not suggesting that this is accurate, rather, I'm only using your own logic]. With a case fatality rate of 3.2% in the US at the moment, this suggests that we should expect at least 800K deaths (probably more since the positivity rate is going up.)

You suggest that those who don't have symptoms are safe -
I would point you to the following references:

• Not all patients develop protective antibodies
• Long term symptoms, complications of COVID-19
• Clinical Course and Molecular Viral Shedding Among Asymptomatic and Symptomatic Patients With SARS-CoV-2 Infection in a Community Treatment Center in the Republic of Korea
• Cerebral Micro-Structural Changes in COVID-19 Patients

[Note that I did not go looking for any of these references - they all happen to be be in my Inbox today. There are numerous other articles that show similar findings.]

You suggest that it's ok for the younger patients to go out, but that the older/higher-risk patients should isolate -

• I would refer you to the third reference above to review the risk of transmission from asymptomatic patients.
• The best numbers I could find suggest that 3.9% of the deaths are in the 20-45 age group. Using the numbers above, this means that over 30,000 people like you will die.
• Recent data suggests that over 50% of cases are now in patients age 18-45, so it is likely that the number of deaths noted will end up being an underestimate
• as a taxpayer (I presume that at some point, you will try to be a contributing part of society), you should be particularly worried about issues noted in the second and fourth references above -- despite the lack of functional universal healthcare, these are still people who will impact your future, because they will not be able to contribute to the tax base to the same level that they otherwise would have, resulting in a greater deficit in things like Social Security, and likely a reduction in the amount that you will be eligible for when you retire
  • admittedly, conceptualizing this requires the ability to think beyond the immediate future, which may be difficult for those under the age of 25-30 due to incomplete brain development
• I will assume that at least some of the people going out to the bars/gatherings live at home or visit their parents/grandparents regularly. Are you/they willing to accept the possibility that a relative may die because you felt that it was your God-given right to go out for a drink on a Friday night?

On the flip side of things, I practice in an ICU setting. People who espouse the attitudes that you have described will ensure that I will continue to have the opportunity to keep my procedural skills (intubation, central line placement, endoscopy, pacer insertion, etc) up to date.



If you read this far and understood what has been presented to you, then congratulations - you should be well on your way to eliminating any gaps in your knowledge and understanding. With ignorance having been corrected, I can only assume that you will reconsider your actions. Of course, if you don't then we are left with the alternative explanation...

 

[Hieveryone]

@Hieveryone :
Do you wear a seatbelt?
Do you stop at a red light?
These laws/rules are in place to protect the public (in part, from people with attitudes like the ones you have expressed.) Masks and social distancing serve the same purpose.

Your logic suggests that I should have the right to drive with my eyes closed because my personal rights supersede the rights of those around me.



I do have a few comments regarding some of the things you have said (this is necessarily incomplete, as an exhaustive list would take up far more of my time than it would be worth):

You questioned whether a lockdown helps -
For people who actually give a **** about anyone other than themselves, it does. Italy is a perfect example of that.

You questioned whether the numbers are accurate -
In fact, they are not. Many deaths due to COVID were not captured because people died at home before being tested. So the actual death rate is likely much higher.

You did some simple math and suggested that the infection rate and mortality rate are both low -

By your suggestion, the infection rate would be zero if no testing was done. I will assume that you recognize the fallacy of this. The test positivity rate in the US is currently 7.6% (which is almost 70% higher than it was two months ago.) This means that one in 14 people tested have COVID. By the same logic that you presented, this would translate into almost 25 million cases in the US [Note that I'm not suggesting that this is accurate, rather, I'm only using your own logic]. With a case fatality rate of 3.2% in the US at the moment, this suggests that we should expect at least 800K deaths (probably more since the positivity rate is going up.)

You suggest that those who don't have symptoms are safe -
I would point you to the following references:

• Not all patients develop protective antibodies
• Long term symptoms, complications of COVID-19
• Clinical Course and Molecular Viral Shedding Among Asymptomatic and Symptomatic Patients With SARS-CoV-2 Infection in a Community Treatment Center in the Republic of Korea
• Cerebral Micro-Structural Changes in COVID-19 Patients

[Note that I did not go looking for any of these references - they all happen to be be in my Inbox today. There are numerous other articles that show similar findings.]

You suggest that it's ok for the younger patients to go out, but that the older/higher-risk patients should isolate -

• I would refer you to the third reference above to review the risk of transmission from asymptomatic patients.
• The best numbers I could find suggest that 3.9% of the deaths are in the 20-45 age group. Using the numbers above, this means that over 30,000 people like you will die.
• Recent data suggests that over 50% of cases are now in patients age 18-45, so it is likely that the number of deaths noted will end up being an underestimate
• as a taxpayer (I presume that at some point, you will try to be a contributing part of society), you should be particularly worried about issues noted in the second and fourth references above -- despite the lack of functional universal healthcare, these are still people who will impact your future, because they will not be able to contribute to the tax base to the same level that they otherwise would have, resulting in a greater deficit in things like Social Security, and likely a reduction in the amount that you will be eligible for when you retire
  • admittedly, conceptualizing this requires the ability to think beyond the immediate future, which may be difficult for those under the age of 25-30 due to incomplete brain development
• I will assume that at least some of the people going out to the bars/gatherings live at home or visit their parents/grandparents regularly. Are you/they willing to accept the possibility that a relative may die because you felt that it was your God-given right to go out for a drink on a Friday night?

On the flip side of things, I practice in an ICU setting. People who espouse the attitudes that you have described will ensure that I will continue to have the opportunity to keep my procedural skills (intubation, central line placement, endoscopy, pacer insertion, etc) up to date.



If you read this far and understood what has been presented to you, then congratulations - you should be well on your way to eliminating any gaps in your knowledge and understanding. With ignorance having been corrected, I can only assume that you will reconsider your actions. Of course, if you don't then we are left with the alternative explanation...

I’m not sure if all of what you said is true, or at least complete. It seems as though you have espoused a one sided view of corona, and that’s fine. That’s your choice. Just know there’s 2 sides to every coin...

 

[C DM]

I’m not sure if all of what you said is true, or at least complete. It seems as though you have espoused a one sided view of corona, and that’s fine. That’s your choice. Just know there’s 2 sides to every coin...

Kind of like those who say that 2+2=4 only choose to present one incomplete side of that.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

An excellent post, @Doc C, and thank you for taking the time and trouble to ccompose such a thoughtful, closely-argued post when it is clear that - professionally - you are undoubtedly very busy.

I’m not sure if all of what you said is true, or at least complete. It seems as though you have espoused a one sided view of corona, and that’s fine. That’s your choice. Just know there’s 2 sides to every coin...

There may be "two sides to every coin" (what a tired, trite cliché to reach for, in this context) but there is only one side to the corona virus; it is a highly infectious and unusually deadly condition, one which has given rise to a global pandemic.

 

[seadragon]

I’m not sure if all of what you said is true, or at least complete. It seems as though you have espoused a one sided view of corona, and that’s fine. That’s your choice. Just know there’s 2 sides to every coin...

After the thoughtful post above from an ICU frontline worker, I’m curious... what is the other side of this coin?

Lemme guess...

”Americans, mostly young people, seem to have forgotten about this virus and are enjoying themselves going out to bars. I mean, it’s like it doesn’t exist.”

In other words, the other side of the coin is blank.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

After the thoughtful post above from an ICU frontline worker, I’m curious... what is the other side of this coin?

Lemme guess...

”Americans, mostly young people, seem to have forgotten about this virus and are enjoying themselves going out to bars. I mean, it’s like it doesn’t exist.”

In other words, the other side of the coin is blank.

Allow me to suggest a modest amendment: In those posts advocating for the perspective that goes by the name of "other side of the coin" the modifier "mostly" is somewhat redundant.

For, it is not an adverb called into use when sweeping generalisations such as "people", "young people", "normal people", "the average American" thereby casually claiming, - or arrogating - or assuming, the right to speak for absolutely everyone who falls under these categories - can be used instead.

 

[michael9891]

The trouble with a lot of people's attitude towards the pandemic, is they're thinking short term instead of long term. A bit more sacrifice now, less sacrifice later over a much, much longer drawn out period. When hopefully a vaccine & much better understanding will reduce the effects of the virus.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I’m at the beach today and it’s busy but everybody seems to be well spaced out. When you look at the scenes at Bournemouth and Barry Island where it’s stupid, it’s nice to be around intelligent people in all of this.

 

[michael9891]

I’m at the beach today and it’s busy but everybody seems to be well spaced out. When you look at the scenes at Bournemouth and Barry Island where it’s stupid, it’s nice to be around intelligent people in all of this.

This is a major thing in lots of people not understanding. If there's plenty of space, go for it. But too many people see the crowding in places and just say **** it and add to the problem.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

This is a major thing in lots of people not understanding. If there's plenty of space, go for it. But too many people see the crowding in places and just say **** it and add to the problem.

Indeed and I said to my wife if it gets too busy then we’ll make tracks. A lot of the pubs and shops seem to have one way systems in place with people counting v those going in and out. It’s not back to normal by any stretch and it’s good to see some control. The packed bars and ignorance apparently going on in some parts of the US sounds horrendous. Don’t get me wrong, there’s plenty ignoring it here but businesses face sanctions in the UK if they aren’t responsible.