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Well, try to go on and browse the web with 10.6 - and you will see that many pages won't work, aside from the security problems. There is no modern browser running on 10.6 !!

But it works on all websites that conform to the html standard as of the time it was released. When you buy a computer the promise is that it works for its intended purpose as of the date you bought it. You are demanding it also do new things that were not complicated all those years ago. That’s just dumb.
 
But it works on all websites that conform to the html standard as of the time it was released. When you buy a computer the promise is that it works for its intended purpose as of the date you bought it. You are demanding it also do new things that were not complicated all those years ago. That’s just dumb.

I demand nothing, I buy what works for us.

Last year I gifted 3 old Intel MacPros to a friend - and he was only able to use the 2008 one, because of this.

Long term Software support is not one of the strengths of apple.
Apple is good for consumer things.
 
just don’t see it. When you bundle a ton of games, who becomes your target audience for this? It's definitely not that PS4 buyer we are profiling. The only thing alluring about Apple right now is mobile gaming because you have 2 very easy choices: iOS vs Android. When you involve the console/desktop tiers, the competition stiffens. I think Apple would really need strong exclusivity from top tier gaming studios to have this be a conversation.
If Apple acquires Nintendo, that would help bolster its first-party content library and go after a market not catered to the PS4 / Xbox crowd
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Long term Software support is not one of the strengths of apple.
Apple is pretty good at supporting their Macs for 6 to 8 years on average. By that time most users are ready to upgrade.
 
Nice speech.
But meanwhile a 2006 OG Macbook has no problem running the latest build of Windows 10.
Still capable of accomplishing its original intended tasks relatively well.
Not so much if staying on the Apple side of the software.
Well, you know what they say, a sucker is born every minute.
 
I would think it makes more sense for Apple to continue to pursue their current Apple Arcade initiatives over paying for a port.

I think they need to continue and improve Apple Arcade, but that is not one or the other, they need to do both. Apple Arcade is intended to be a step above mobile games, but not exactly AAA titles.

The only people that will pick up the ports are people that have Mac as their game machine.

Here is where we disagree. I think that the only way to get people to consider the Apple ecosystem as a game environment, is to make it a game environment. That means, not just new titles have to be there, but there has to be some volume. To achieve that they need ports. It would be fast and inexpensive. Again, 40-80 titles is way more compelling than 2 or 3 new games, and 2-3 new platform-exclusive games plus 40-80 older titles is more compelling still. :)

After this ARM change, it will be interesting to see if/how people's gaming habits adapt. One of the major criticisms that we always see from ports is that there are very few that are done well.

Usually because the people doing the port do not have the same incentives as they would in my example. Apple and the Studio both have an incentive to ensure they are done well.

To the Fortnite/LoL comment, people still resort to using Windows bootcamp for those instead of playing it on MacOS.

I am sure some do, but given they are paying for these ports themselves, they must have enough of a market to make it worth it for them to do.

It's progress, but there's a growing amount of stagnancy with Apple Arcade right now.

They need to keep Apple Arcade fresh, for its own sake.

The single code base to run all Apple platforms is definitely a plus. The unfortunate reality is each will still have its own subtle nuances of optimization.

Yes, but from discussing it with a few people who have done it recently, the extra work is cheap enough to make it worth it (if doing it at all is worth it). In other words, if they can get the iPad market, the extra work for the Mac and Apple TV ports would make sense.

Another thing that you're missing is that there is a social networking aspect to the consoles/PC. This is something Apple would have to work on to add as well. Apple would have to provide not only the titles but the same feature parity with its competitors' platforms.

Not sure what you mean here. Some products let one play on any platform and compete against people on any other platform using their own network. That would have to include Apple as well (by that I mean Apple would have to unsure that any port they funded included that option). Others use the PS Network or XBox Live for those functions. In those cases, they would need to ensure that game center was good enough to serve that role (again, some progress at WWDC on that front).

That was the point of my post. The number of things they need in addition to hardware are things that take investment, time, and understanding. For the three facets, Apple hasn't really shown a considerable interest outside of mobile gaming.

One can make the same argument about film/TV content, and yet Apple is now spending billions a year on it. I have no idea if Apple will decide they care, but there are certainly signs in that direction. The thing to remember is that no matter how much they care and spend money promoting the platform, if they do not have the hardware, none of it matters. These moves (may) address that issue.

I just don’t see it. When you bundle a ton of games, who becomes your target audience for this? It's definitely not that PS4 buyer we are profiling.

Why not? If the games are compelling and the price is right, it is an easy way to get someone to consider the platform and get over their "but I am already invested in PlayStation/Xbox" mentality. Letting people choose to be macOS/iPadOS/tvOS gamers with a solid set of games as table stakes makes a lot of sense.

The only thing alluring about Apple right now is mobile gaming because you have 2 very easy choices: iOS vs Android.

That was the case. However, if Apple says that is the only place to focus, they will never be competitive. Again, Sony and Microsoft both entered a market that had other players and replaced them.

When you involve the console/desktop tiers, the competition stiffens. I think Apple would really need strong exclusivity from top tier gaming studios to have this be a conversation.

They need a combination of things. I think eventually, they need some number of windowed platform exclusives, but before the get there, they need an interesting enough set of current games on the platform to convince customers of new AAA titles that this will be a real platform (as you said earlier).
 
I suspect we’ll see some AAA games in the future, with apple pushing hard on studios with the story that now there is this singular mass market of Metal-and-Arm to target. And if that doesn’t work they’ll buy a studio or two. Between their secret GPU work, Apple Arcade, the new controller/keyboard/mouse stuff announced this week, bringing back a real Game Center, and their recent focus on content/services, it’s clear that gaming is something they are finally beginning to take seriously.
Too late.
Apple hasn't been serious about AAA gaming in years or they would have reconciled with Nvidia by now which is one of the biggest names in Gaming so I doubt they will make waves no matter what they try.
Metal has seen little interest from Gaming studios, it seems like there's only room for DirectX and Vulkan.
 
Too late.
Apple hasn't been serious about AAA gaming in years or they would have reconciled with Nvidia by now which is one of the biggest names in Gaming so I doubt they will make waves no matter what they try.
Metal has seen little interest from Gaming studios, it seems like there's only room for DirectX and Vulkan.

It should be noted that the Apple gaming ecosystem is only the embryo of what it could be with a little effort.
After the ARM switch of Macs, you suddenly have the potential of running the same game on Mac/iPad/iPhone/TV seamlessly.
Couple that with some marketing and a $49 iJoypad and you have quite a compelling ecosystem for developers.
They haven't reconciled with nVidia because they would be competitors.
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If Apple acquires Nintendo, that would help bolster its first-party content library and go after a market not catered to the PS4 / Xbox crowd

Japanese companies would rather do seppuku than getting acquired by foreigners. Apple has a much better shot at convincing cross-platform developers.
 
It should be noted that the Apple gaming ecosystem is only the embryo of what it could be with a little effort.
After the ARM switch of Macs, you suddenly have the potential of running the same game on Mac/iPad/iPhone/TV seamlessly.
Couple that with some marketing and a $49 iJoypad and you have quite a compelling ecosystem for developers.
I don't see how running mobile games on a computer is an advantage and switching between different devices is possible even now.
I can run mobile games on my X86 computer right now but I would rather play AAA blockbusters even if they are older.
And do people honestly believe that a little marketing is enough to put Apple on the gaming map?

They haven't reconciled with nVidia because they would be competitors.

Well good luck with that, they are going to need a tone of it.
 
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Usually because the people doing the port do not have the same incentives as they would in my example. Apple and the Studio both have an incentive to ensure they are done well.

That is unrealistic. Apple isn't like Blizzard where they can take their time to doing something well. Time was and still is against them on this one.

I am sure some do, but given they are paying for these ports themselves, they must have enough of a market to make it worth it for them to do.

You have a very few vocal minority of gamers wanting Mac games. I am pretty sure that the companies that have Mac ports have been testing their value proposition. The fact that Blizzard used to be a heavy Mac developer and is now selectively porting some games is a good indicator that the value proposition is not great. D4 was already announced as not being on Mac, and I'm sure the transition to ARM isn't helping either.

In other words, if they can get the iPad market, the extra work for the Mac and Apple TV ports would make sense.

I disagree here. The users on the iPad, Mac, and Apple TV have limited overlap

They need a combination of things. I think eventually, they need some number of windowed platform exclusives, but before the get there, they need an interesting enough set of current games on the platform to convince customers of new AAA titles that this will be a real platform (as you said earlier).

I'd like to see some of the more recent upcoming games on there: Cyberpunk, Amazon's MMO New World, Monster Hunter World, RDP2, Star Wars Squadrons, etc. They need to convince a lot of people like me that AAA doesn't mean Civilization 6 or Warcraft 3.
 
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Too late.
Apple hasn't been serious about AAA gaming in years or they would have reconciled with Nvidia by now which is one of the biggest names in Gaming so I doubt they will make waves no matter what they try.
Metal has seen little interest from Gaming studios, it seems like there's only room for DirectX and Vulkan.
It’s never too late.
 
But it works on all websites that conform to the html standard as of the time it was released. When you buy a computer the promise is that it works for its intended purpose as of the date you bought it. You are demanding it also do new things that were not complicated all those years ago. That’s just dumb.

So is it dumb to demand for longevity in a computer? To be able to repurpose it even for light tasks instead of watching it become digital garbage? Your opinion, I guess.
 
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But it can still do light tasks and be repurposed.

Any kind of real-world usage in 2020 will require the PC to be connected to the Internet, receiving security patches, and being able to run a current version browser.
Big Sur dropped support for even 2012 Retina MBPs. That's ridiculous. That kind of hardware would be viable as an entry level PC until 2025 at least. They deserve to be supported.
Not even going to mention 2008 Mac Pros which hardware could be upgraded for another 10 years at least.
Stuck with El Capitan, can't even browse the web safely on MacOS.
 
Any kind of real-world usage in 2020 will require the PC to be connected to the Internet, receiving security patches, and being able to run a current version browser.
Big Sur dropped support for even 2012 Retina MBPs. That's ridiculous. That kind of hardware would be viable as an entry level PC until 2025 at least. They deserve to be supported.
Not even going to mention 2008 Mac Pros which hardware could be upgraded for another 10 years at least.
Stuck with El Capitan, can't even browse the web safely on MacOS.

You are setting an arbitrary bar. You bought a machine with an OS. Contrary to claims originally made in this thread, it can still do everything it was intended for in the year the OS was released. Then you say it should still be useful. It still is. Now you make a specific list of things it must be able to do. You’ll never be happy on macos. I suggest windows.
 
That is unrealistic. Apple isn't like Blizzard where they can take their time to doing something well. Time was and still is against them on this one.

Not at all. Apple has as much time as they need, as they currently are not a player and so they can wait until they are ready to try to address this market. Blizzard needs to ship new products in this space and upgrade those they have in order to generate revenue.

You have a very few vocal minority of gamers wanting Mac games. I am pretty sure that the companies that have Mac ports have been testing their value proposition.

Companies rarely develop for a “vocal minority”, unless they are able to move a lot of customers or are worth a great deal of revenue. There is no question that companies that have developed games for macOS continuously check the value they receive from supporting the market.

The fact that Blizzard used to be a heavy Mac developer and is now selectively porting some games is a good indicator that the value proposition is not great. D4 was already announced as not being on Mac, and I'm sure the transition to ARM isn't helping either.

No question that Apple’s systems had become less and less viable for gaming from a hardware standpoint. Either Apple Silicon-based systems will reverse that trend or it will not. If it does not, nothing Apple can do will get people to port, and if it does, it will make it much more compelling to port.

I disagree here. The users on the iPad, Mac, and Apple TV have limited overlap

First, it is not about overlap of markets, it is about overlap of efforts. If the work is justified by the potential iPad/iPad Pro market, spending the small amount of additional money to support the other two platforms makes sense (especially given that all three platforms need to support game controllers, the extra effort is quite small).

I'd like to see some of the more recent upcoming games on there: Cyberpunk, Amazon's MMO New World, Monster Hunter World, RDP2, Star Wars Squadrons, etc. They need to convince a lot of people like me that AAA doesn't mean Civilization 6 or Warcraft 3.

I just want to see Cyberpunk 2077, so that we can have Keanu Reeves at a Keynote. :) You seem to be arguing both sides here - you do not think having lots of current and remastered older titles is important, but you need to see them to believe they understand that AAA is not Civ 6 and Warcraft 3.

There are three factors here:
  1. Competitive hardware at competitive prices (true for both an AppleTV that supports AAA gaming and for new ASi Macs). If they do not deliver here, nothing else matters.
  2. Availability of enough titles at launch to make it interesting. This is probably our biggest disagreement. Given Apple’s poor track record here, I think they need to make sure the platform is really compelling at the point they start to push it, not just hit with 4 or 5 splashy AAA exclusives.
  3. Long term commitment - Apple has to be willing to continue to spend even after the first titles do not sell that well, and needs to make sure that it is worth it for developers financially during this transition. Apple has shown they can do this, but there is no guarantee they will. It took Apple a while for the Apple Watch to really hit its stride. It will likely be a 3-5 year money losing effort before they might see returns. If they do not make it clear upfront that they plan to be here for the long haul it will not matter. That means multi-year contracts with game studios for games, a serious marketing budget and buying me lunch every day until this is done (added this to see if you were paying attention and with the hope that some Apple exec will accept that if the rest of what I say makes sense, this does as well). :)
Apple needs to execute on all three. They have the money for both 2 and 3, and have shown the ability to make long term plays, now it is just a question of will they decide this matters to them.
 
Could see Craig Federighi becoming CEO one day...
I thought the same thing as I watched the Keynote. Tim didn't really do a whole lot, it looked to be Craig's show. He just seems to have more passion for the products and what they're doing. Craig would probably spur more innovation if he was at the helm.
 
The main weakness of virtualization products like Parallels and VMware on the Mac has always been GPU performance. While CPU applications run at near native speeds under virtualization, the same can't be said about GPU performance. Despite all the marketing from Parallels and VMware about improved graphics performance with their products, it still does not come close to native. This is why gamers use Boot Camp. Even if Windows for ARM becomes popular and lots of Windows developers start making applications and games for ARM, virtualization on ARM Macs would still have the issue of GPU performance. Supposedly, this has been addressed on the PC side so VMs running in VMware for PC can access the full power of the GPU. VMware previously said they were unable to do the same thing on the Mac due to lack of support in MacOS. Which is also why there is no graphics acceleration for MacOS VMs in VMware Fusion. Will the updated virtualization support in Big Sur address GPU access?
 
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The main weakness of virtualization products like Parallels and VMware on the Mac has always been GPU performance.

I think the more general statement is “The main weakness of Macs has been GPU performance.”

One hopes that Apple fixes that. If not, like many other factors, virtualization performance will not matter. :)

Will the updated virtualization support in Big Sur address GPU access?

Apple seem to have indicated that they added some hardware support for virtualization. Whether that covers GPU support as well we do not yet know, and whether they have boost GPU performance we also do not know.
 
Availability of enough titles at launch to make it interesting. This is probably our biggest disagreement. Given Apple’s poor track record here, I think they need to make sure the platform is really compelling at the point they start to push it, not just hit with 4 or 5 splashy AAA exclusives.

They need 4/5 splashy AAA exclusives to lure other game studios to even consider them. The platform is not enough if you don't have the heavy hitters develop games for them because that's not where their target audience goes.

Imagine the waves that could occur if Apple (albeit unrealistically) was able to accomplish any of the below:
- Blizzard exclusive Diablo 4 only on Mac
- Rockstar exclusive GTA/RDR only on Mac
- The next CoD only on Mac
- The next Riot game only on Mac

Historically, if you look at Mac sales for AAA games vs PC sales for AAA games, it's been atrocious. I don't see how ARM will help with this because devs are focused right now on doing x86 gaming.

Competitive hardware at competitive prices (true for both an AppleTV that supports AAA gaming and for new ASi Macs). If they do not deliver here, nothing else matters.

Today (and the foreseeable future), they don't deliver anything at a competitive price, so yeah it doesn't matter
 
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They need 4/5 splashy AAA exclusives to lure other game studios to even consider them.

Now we get into an ordering problem. My view is that they need a good baseline of solid older AAA/AAA-remastered titles before they get Grand Theft Horse (RDR) for a one year exclusive. Your argument seems to be that they need RDR/D4/etc. first and then can build their platform later.

The platform is not enough if you don't have the heavy hitters develop games for them because that's not where their target audience goes.

We completely agree here. My problem is that even having 4-5 windowed exclusives is not enough to move the needle. Apple has nothing as a base because of years of neglect of this market.

Imagine the waves that could occur if Apple (albeit unrealistically) was able to accomplish any of the below:
- Blizzard exclusive Diablo 4 only on Mac
- Rockstar exclusive GTA/RDR only on Mac
- The next CoD only on Mac
- The next Riot game only on Mac

Imagine that, and then what happens? Without a library of other games, people will be super frustrated because they will not have enough to keep them occupied.

Historically, if you look at Mac sales for AAA games vs PC sales for AAA games, it's been atrocious.

It has been atrocious because they have not had competitive hardware. That needs to be first. Before either of our strategies.

I don't see how ARM will help with this because devs are focused right now on doing x86 gaming.

Apple Silicon matter if and only it helps them build competitive hardware. If it does not, it matters not at all.

Today (and the foreseeable future), they don't deliver anything at a competitive price, so yeah it doesn't matter

Again, here we completely agree. Defining what competitive means is what these questions (in another thread) are about. I am going to gather the answers in a new thread so we can all have what Jon Gruber calls “claim chowder” and I would love to have your answers.

Here are the questions I asking everyone:
  1. What set of benchmarks will you consider as the basis for comparison between the released Apple Silicon Mac systems and competitive Intel/AMD machines?
  2. When doing our comparisons between Apple Silicon-based hardware and AMD/Intel based hardware, how will you pick the AMD/Intel chip to compare? What objective metric would you use to define equivalent systems for comparison? Machines at the same price point? Machines with the same max TDP? Something else? The point of this question is that since Apple will not be selling its SoCs to others, one cannot do it purely on price of the chip, one needs some other objective metric to decide what two items should be compared.
  3. What objective criteria would Apple Silicon have to meet to be a successful product vs. Intel/AMD’s chips? (10% faster? 25%? 10% better battery life? 25%? Something else?) Once Apple starts to deliver high-end GPUs, what are your answers on those same metrics for those?
  4. When did you purchase your most recent Mac from Apple or a third party reseller that was currently shipping at the time you purchased it?
  5. What would be required for you to purchase an Apple Silicon-based system?
 
Any and all games. Heck I'm still on Mojave as I don't want to lose 32 bit applications and plugins for creative software.
I lost a ton of software during the original Rosetta and Rosetta itself was a hot mess. CS1 ran at 160F on my 08 MacBook and I remember vividly Excel running faster on an old 500MHz G4 than the same C2D MacBook.
Emulation sucks.

If you care too much about software, you can buy the best Macs you find today and just use them without connecting to the internet(for security reasons). The computer will continue to do what it was made to do decades in the future, just be sure you get one that has replaceable parts. Look at McLaren , they use 20 year old laptop to service their exotic cars.
 
Microsoft would love to migrate people to Windows ARM.

Microsoft don't care what OS you run any more, they want you to migrate to 365 based (or Azure hosted) applications which are mostly platform agnostic.

They get paid a 365 license every month no matter what end device you run it on. If you're running an app hosted on Azure they get paid for the compute/storage/network consumption.

I'm quite certain they wouldn't mind if Windows died entirely, if people are still running 365 applications and hosting their stuff in Azure (which is over 60% linux workloads now anyway).

Windows isn't the cash cow it used to be for Microsoft. The big cash cow was always OFFICE, and that has moved to the cloud (365).

Windows costs a lot to develop, patch and maintain. I would argue that it makes little business sense for them to care about Windows 10 any more, it's not where the money is. And you can see this in the quality control they have with it. They don't care. Every set of Windows 10 updates this year has broken HEAPS of stuff.
 
Microsoft don't care what OS you run any more, they want you to migrate to 365 based (or Azure hosted) applications which are mostly platform agnostic.

I do not think this is the right way to look at this. Microsoft used to believe that their only path to victory was through Windows and that meant hobbling their efforts for every other platform. What changed is not that they do not care about their OS, but they recognized that their approach was hurting them. The Powerpoint team had an iOS version ready to go, but was not allowed to release it until the Windows version supporting touch was ready. That brought them to market a year after they should have been there, making many people realize that they did not need Office at all (Google docs and iWork are good enough).

They get paid a 365 license every month no matter what end device you run it on. If you're running an app hosted on Azure they get paid for the compute/storage/network consumption.

What Satya Nadella changed was saying that each unit should focus more on what matters to them, and less on how to keep Windows dominant. While they want you running Office 365, they are much happier if you are running it on Windows.

I'm quite certain they wouldn't mind if Windows died entirely, if people are still running 365 applications and hosting their stuff in Azure (which is over 60% linux workloads now anyway).

Pretty sure you are wrong here. Windows is still where they make the bulk of their money (while Azure is the number 2 cloud services provider behind AWS much of their revenue comes from hosting Windows infrastructure (Exchange, Active Directory, storage, etc.).

Windows isn't the cash cow it used to be for Microsoft. The big cash cow was always OFFICE, and that has moved to the cloud (365).

Windows was always the cash cow, because it did not require any where near the regular feature updates that Office required to get people to upgrade. People upgraded Windows when they bought new machines, or when Office required it. People had to be convinced to upgrade Office and that meant features development (which cost money). Office has not "moved to the cloud", they have moved to a subscription model whose features include a small amount of cloud storage and email. Most users run Office on their Windows machines, iPads/iPadPros, or macOS systems. The non-Windows versions of Office still lag the Windows one.

Windows costs a lot to develop, patch and maintain. I would argue that it makes little business sense for them to care about Windows 10 any more, it's not where the money is. And you can see this in the quality control they have with it. They don't care. Every set of Windows 10 updates this year has broken HEAPS of stuff.

They have always had issues with Software QA. This is not new. (To be clear, so have Apple. People forget that System 7 shipped without the ability to print do to a bug.) However, they they still make a great deal of money on Windows, and without it, products like Exchange and AD would not matter nearly as much. To believe they do not care is to fooled by one's own biases.

As to the original question as to whether they would like to see an Arm-based Windows be successful, I think they would love it, but are not willing to do what is required to make it happen. They correctly believe that Intel/AMD will not be able to deliver hardware that competes with the iPad/iPad Pro and that Arm is their way forward. What they are not willing to do is commit the resources to make sure that all their software and that of their most important third parties, runs on Arm. Third parties do not currently care because Microsoft have not sold enough units to make them care. They have not sold enough units because they do not have Microsoft and third party support. Chicken meet egg.

It is funny to realize that the most common Windows on Arm laptop/desktop is likely to be the Apple Silicon based Mac. It will sell orders of magnitude more than either of Microsoft's Arm systems, simply because it will be the only Mac selling in a few years and Microsoft has put as much (or more) effort into their Intel based systems.
 
Windows on arm is pointless

it’s not going to ruin existing third party windows apps. Which is the entire point of running Windows.

windows on arm will not see any adoption (beyond maybe 1% of Mac users) on the Mac, you can bet your house on that.
 
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