Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak Discuss Apple Silicon Transition, Lack of Boot Camp Support, and More

Two related questions: 1) If Apple paid for the ports (and they were done by porting houses, like most game ports), and these games ended up on the platform but sold no copies, how does the game studio lose? Especially given all the publicity they would get for the remastered version of the game.

Just to preface we're talking about full AAA ports, and not mobile ports of AAA brands (e.g. Diablo 3, Forza, Eve Online, etc).

Depending on the circumstances, they may share the source code / assets, or they may ask for consultants (i.e. time = money) from the game studio to make sure the port goes ok. The port is not a guarantee of a success. A bad port could also give tarnish reputation.

2) Given that people buy consoles that cost $400-$700 to be able to play a single game, why do you believe that they would not pay $150-$200 in the same way?

Finally, what is it that you think draws people to a gaming platform (focus on consoles, but include PCs as well)? Is it hardware specs? Titles? Price?

Remember when the Apple TV was marketed and spun as a gaming system? The hardware is quite decent, but it still hasn't really taken off today. Very few people buy it for the games. There are going to be people pursuing hardware specs or price or title, and there are going to be some that look at it as black and white. However, I believe it's all about the entire package. The elephant in the room here is understanding the demographics.

For PC in recent years, there's a heavy focus on online competition, so you have your MOBA and Fortnite crowds. Think about how much money the top streamers make here. The marketing and competitive nature of it is far greater than something that I think the console can obtain in the short term. I went to the Overwatch League season 1 in Brooklyn in the first year, and it's quite interesting to see a stadium here in the U.S. fills with an audience to watch people compete in a PC game. In South Korea, they have always had a stadium audience for their games. Hardware here makes a difference because many of these gamers pursue high FPS at high quality graphics. For Macs in comparison, it kind of feels the most talked about game recently is Civilization 6. If I were AAA developer, I would barely even look at the Apple ecosystem.

For consoles, you have different crowds. Take PS4/XB1 for example. You have your online crowds for Evo Championships, but you also have those AAA titles that are targeted for x86 platforms. It certainly helps that Sony going to x86 in the PS4 made a lot of PlayStation developers happier. It makes cross platform development just a tad easier. All 3 consoles do a lot of marketing campaigns to make sure they are known as gaming and living room systems. There's too much content out there that reiterates this. On the Switch, you have heavy pushes on 1st party brands such as Mario and Animal Crossing, both which are established IPs and still have a significant following. All consoles have done extensive focus group studies on many facets of console gaming. Seeing the Apple TV control in gen 3/4, it's easy to assume that Apple has not. In addition, the fact that Apple opened up their platform to leverage console controllers may hint that it's kind of throwing darts a little bit to see what sticks.

The Apple TV right now as a gaming system doesn't really have much at the moment to attract these crowds which probably have the highest visibility. When people spend $400-700 for a gaming console, they are thinking "I am buying for that game for now, but there might be opportunities to buy more later because this is a gaming system with big future titles to come". If they had a choice of buying an Apple TV version or PS4 version of GTA 5, you can bet that most will buy the PS4 version because it's future proof with a lot more ROI.
 
Maybe they should get real jobs, then.
Maybe you should too.
[automerge]1593238430[/automerge]
Thank you! That’s exactly the mentality we should be avoiding.
I respectfully disagree.
[automerge]1593238731[/automerge]
Finally, what is it that you think draws people to a gaming platform (focus on consoles, but include PCs as well)? Is it hardware specs? Titles? Price?

Titles. Wii. Nuff said.
 
Last edited:
Download throttlestop and control this yourself?

Not really Apple's job to hold your hand on someone else's operating system.
It IS Apple’s job when their machines are designed thermally-crippled and their drivers don’t handle power management well in the OS they claim to support on the hardware.

Now they can just say “we don’t support that” and be done with the Windows drivers, but will they also start making thermally-competent machines?
[automerge]1593259130[/automerge]
well you do not have to upgrade ASAP... maybe wait a generation and two to see how the OS and developers evolve
I’ve been waiting over a decade for Apple to sell a power-user-style desktop that I could use as a Mac OS machine and a Windows gaming machine (not hard core), instead of buying & maintaining TWO computers and displays. I waited through their reluctance to update the Mac Pro. I waited through their dalliances with a compact Mac Pro that didn’t come with anApple retina display. I was kicked in the crotch when they announced a new proper Mac Pro that is priced for plutocrats only, and now I’m waiting through the next two years of hardware to see WTF happens with Apple Silicon-based computers.

I hate computers anymore. I hate Windows with a passion, hate voodoo-configured PC hardware and will only use it for games. I loved the Apple of 2007-2012, back when Jobs’ pushed the industry to actually move forward... but now I stick with today’s lesser Apple merely because their products are less bad compared to the alternatives. I HATE this industry.
[automerge]1593259391[/automerge]
A takeaway from this: Apple aren't stupid, they are not going to be switching to ARM thinking its going to be worse than Intel.
Looking at Apple’s current visual/UI/human interface design, and their hardware’s now long-standing hardware design issues (thinness obsession & thermal tolerances)... I don’t have confidence in *any* of their decision-making processes at this point.
 
Last edited:
I feel the same way for politics, both of the candidates that i can vote for have to do what the peoples wants and what is good for the peoples because otherwise we will not vote for them.
Everyone keeps acting like we have choices in a duopoly-type political system or in a laissez-faire capitalist market...
[automerge]1593261772[/automerge]
But the strategic goal here seems (to me) to make Apple a unified market - one app that runs on iOS/ipadOS and Mac. This makes Apple a more cost-effective target to produce code for. Chances are, we'll see more gaming on Mac, not less.
More, but not better. There will still be the problem of huge, complex 3D games not being brought to the Mac because Apple doesn’t sell hardware that runs it well enough at the time when the games come out.
[automerge]1593262080[/automerge]
Hopefully my lap won’t get burned anymore. That’s all I’m asking for.
Have fun in yesterday’s world.
There are computers and computer users outside the scope of *laptops*.
 
Last edited:
I use both MacOS and Windows although I prefer MacOS.

When I eventually need a new computer, I'll see if an ARM based Mac satisfies my requirements at the time. If not, I have no problems getting a Windows computer as my replacement.

A computer is just a tool.
A Windows PC isn’t a tool to me anymore. It’s a PITA nightmare of voodoo and user-blaming BS. I’ll use it to game, but that’s all.
[automerge]1593263560[/automerge]
Hard to share the monitor and keyboard if they’re part of a MacBook Pro, though.
Also hard if the display, the computers, and the KVM switches don’t all share the same interfaces.

Can I buy a PC or PC GPU for gaming that will be compatible with an iMac in Target Display mode? Nope. That means I’ll need a display for the PC, even if I already have one in my iMac. Does Apple sell a standalone display for those of us who aren’t corporations or plutocrats? Nope.

How about Thunderbolt or Display Port on KVMs? USB-C?

KVM switches are a neat idea but I’ve never once found them to be competent in cross-platform KVM usage.
 
Last edited:
At what point is it ok that someone’s stuff stops working? I have tools my great-grandfather used and they work as well for me as they did him. The company that made them went out of business and I can still sharpen them and get them repaired.
Do you *have* to replace a functional computer? No. If you desire, you can keep operating it as long as it will physically run. But, and this is a big one, it won't always be able to run newer or updated software or be able to interact with other computers.

Even if you keep your OG 1st gen iPhone in good repair it isn't always going to be able to make phone calls. And said 20-ish year old PowerPC G5 Mac Pro, or any computer, won't always be able to view internet content.

We should not develop a mentality that modern tools stop being functional after a short time. The Mac isn’t even 40 yet. Every one ever made that’s been taken care of should still be working.
As has been mentioned technology, which a Mac Pro is, will become obsolete overtime. That you can still use your great-grappy's tools today and get them sharpened or repaired is because they're used to accomplish a completely different task. If longevity is crucial to you - don't purchase computers or technology. You'll only be able to hand it to grandchildren as a relic of an era, not as a usable tool.
 
But it *was* an *option*. Why maintain TWO dogdamned computers & displays when you could have only ONE?

You'll still be able to play games (they even demoed a game on stage), just not all the ones coming out in the future. You will have access to the full iOS library though, so in terms of the number of games available, this should actually make it a better option.

Of course, we all know that iOS games are mostly garbage and that console/PC-style ones are what people actually want, and those will still be there, but likely in a far more limited scope.
 
You'll still be able to play games (they even demoed a game on stage), just not all the ones coming out in the future. You will have access to the full iOS library though, so in terms of the number of games available, this should actually make it a better option.

Of course, we all know that iOS games are mostly garbage and that console/PC-style ones are what people actually want, and those will still be there, but likely in a far more limited scope.

I suspect we’ll see some AAA games in the future, with apple pushing hard on studios with the story that now there is this singular mass market of Metal-and-Arm to target. And if that doesn’t work they’ll buy a studio or two. Between their secret GPU work, Apple Arcade, the new controller/keyboard/mouse stuff announced this week, bringing back a real Game Center, and their recent focus on content/services, it’s clear that gaming is something they are finally beginning to take seriously.
 
And if that doesn’t work they’ll buy a studio or two
This should have happened yesterday. Just like the TV space, first-party content is important for the success of a gaming platform. Just Sony and MS. Buying Nintendo would be a great place to start.
 
I suspect we’ll see some AAA games in the future, with apple pushing hard on studios with the story that now there is this singular mass market of Metal-and-Arm to target. And if that doesn’t work they’ll buy a studio or two. Between their secret GPU work, Apple Arcade, the new controller/keyboard/mouse stuff announced this week, bringing back a real Game Center, and their recent focus on content/services, it’s clear that gaming is something they are finally beginning to take seriously.

You're probably right. Now that macOS is essentially merging with iOS as an audience/market for games, and since iOS now has proper controller support, I suspect that studios will take it a lot more seriously as a platform worth developing for. I didn't want to throw that in the mix just yet though because it's just my hunch.
 
Maybe the PS5/XBS1X will take a chunk of the PC market share, I think PC gaming kind sometimes be a meh experience - not only do you have to buy expensive components relative to consoles but your gaming experience might still not be the best due to lack of optimisation (as game developers have to support millions of different PC configs, while being at the mercy of Windows drivers).

Historically I’ve been a 95% PC gamer but I might switch over this year.
 
This tells me all I need to know that you know nothing about modern development sir - well written code and software should be written in a way to be built and run in as many places as possible. This approach you propose is really only relevant when you want to code below your API layer - which isn't where 90% of the worlds developers reside.

That’s why you write all of your stuff in Java or Go then.
 
Just to preface we're talking about full AAA ports, and not mobile ports of AAA brands (e.g. Diablo 3, Forza, Eve Online, etc).

Absolutely. Games like Borderlands, GTA, Grand Theft Horse (aka “Red Dead Redemption”), although to further clarify, I would expect them to also run on iPads and iPad Pros (but the full experience, not a downgraded version).

Depending on the circumstances, they may share the source code / assets, or they may ask for consultants (i.e. time = money) from the game studio to make sure the port goes ok. The port is not a guarantee of a success. A bad port could also give tarnish reputation.

Certainly true. Let us add some numbers from industry sources:
  • A full port of a current generation or older AAA title has an estimated cost of $250,000 to $750,000.
  • A remastered version (improving all the assets to native resolution, etc.) ranges from $1,000,000 to $2,250,000 million.
Let us say that Apple offered $5,000,000 per port. For remastered ports, they would get a 6-12 month exclusive. Since both Apple and the studio have reasons to ensure that the port is good, let us include that the studio gets ”final cut”.

For less than the price of a single Apple TV+ movie, they could get 50 AAA games in various genres and of various ages. They would want to work with Epic to ensure that Unreal was as optimized as possible, with Unity for their engine and (maybe) Crytek for theirs. This would also make it easier for new games going forward to support the platform.

Remember when the Apple TV was marketed and spun as a gaming system? The hardware is quite decent, but it still hasn't really taken off today.

Apple was definitely wrong to not either develop a first party game controller or ensure that it works with top tier controllers for other platforms. They remedied that last year with support for PlayStation and XBox controllers. This year they added support for the new controllers from MS (including the one that makes me happiest - the adaptive controller giving a better experience to those who need it).

Very few people buy it for the games.

Clearly. Until Apple Arcade there was clearly not enough compelling content. Apple Arcade has added a lot, but probably not enough yet to be compelling on its own. As a package (all the content apps, fitness apps, and games together), it is way more interesting than it was.

For PC in recent years, there's a heavy focus on online competition, so you have your MOBA and Fortnite crowds.

...snip...

Hardware here makes a difference because many of these gamers pursue high FPS at high quality graphics. For Macs in comparison, it kind of feels the most talked about game recently is Civilization 6. If I were AAA developer, I would barely even look at the Apple ecosystem.

You mentioned Fortnite and I will point out that it is available on macOS and iOS. League of Legends, World of Warcraft (both “retail” and classic), Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm, Warcraft III: Reforged and many others are also available, so there is clearly some market, as none of these were done by Apple. A unified platform with both Keyboard/Mouse and top tier console controller support is likely to improve things.

It certainly helps that Sony going to x86 in the PS4 made a lot of PlayStation developers happier. It makes cross platform development just a tad easier.

In exactly the same way, Apple Silicon should do that for Apple’s platform. Especially with the improvements in SwiftUI, and support from Epic/Unity (and maybe CryTek), one can develop a game that will run on all Apple Silicon platforms with a single code base. That gives a developer AppleTV, AS Macs, and iPad and iPad Pro tablets. Shared state using their own platforms or the newly improved Game Center. If they are all Metal based, then even supporting existing Intel Macs is reasonable.

All 3 consoles do a lot of marketing campaigns to make sure they are known as gaming and living room systems. There's too much content out there that reiterates this.

Marketing is certainly something Apple does well. If they decide to make a push for this market, expect to see Billboards and, TV and Online ads that talk about the unified experience (player starts on Mac, moves to iPad, goes to friends house and picks up on AppleTV).

On the Switch, you have heavy pushes on 1st party brands such as Mario and Animal Crossing, both which are established IPs and still have a significant following.

Nintendo is a special case as they have a great deal of their own IP that has not been on many other platforms (iOS is one of the few to get some of their IP).

All consoles have done extensive focus group studies on many facets of console gaming. Seeing the Apple TV control in gen 3/4, it's easy to assume that Apple has not.

Not sure the remote is indicative of how much market research Apple did on console gaming. While they were not very popular, they did have MFI licensed controllers that were competitive (just neither amazing nor cheap enough to justify purchase for most people).

the fact that Apple opened up their platform to leverage console controllers may hint that it's kind of throwing darts a little bit to see what sticks.

Add to that their support for mouse/keyboard games on the iPad and it seems they have decided they are interested in the space.

The Apple TV right now as a gaming system doesn't really have much at the moment to attract these crowds which probably have the highest visibility.

That was they whole point of my original post. It is my speculation that the next AppleTV will have compelling hardware specs. The question is what else is needed to make it compelling as gaming platform.

When people spend $400-700 for a gaming console, they are thinking "I am buying for that game for now, but there might be opportunities to buy more later because this is a gaming system with big future titles to come". If they had a choice of buying an Apple TV version or PS4 version of GTA 5, you can bet that most will buy the PS4 version because it's future proof with a lot more ROI.

Now change the question:

If someone is deciding to purchase a $400 PS4 and a $30 game (older AAA title), vs. an $150-$250 (with or without a controller bundled) AppleTV, with a $30 game that runs on it, an iPad/iPad Pro, and/or a Mac and things are a bit different. Especially if Apple gets 10-20 AAA titles for the platform (maybe even does a bundle deal where one gets 10 games for $100). Add to that all the other things the device does and it might be compelling.

Apple never owned their own content, and now owns their own studio. I would not be at all surprised to see them do the same in the gaming space.
 
Do you *have* to replace a functional computer? No. If you desire, you can keep operating it as long as it will physically run. But, and this is a big one, it won't always be able to run newer or updated software or be able to interact with other computers.

Even if you keep your OG 1st gen iPhone in good repair it isn't always going to be able to make phone calls. And said 20-ish year old PowerPC G5 Mac Pro, or any computer, won't always be able to view internet content.

As has been mentioned technology, which a Mac Pro is, will become obsolete overtime. That you can still use your great-grappy's tools today and get them sharpened or repaired is because they're used to accomplish a completely different task. If longevity is crucial to you - don't purchase computers or technology. You'll only be able to hand it to grandchildren as a relic of an era, not as a usable tool.

Nice speech.
But meanwhile a 2006 OG Macbook has no problem running the latest build of Windows 10.
Still capable of accomplishing its original intended tasks relatively well.
Not so much if staying on the Apple side of the software.
 
Why? What exactly would you be loosing if Linux was virtualized vs not? Care to enlighten?
I write highly threaded server side code. I want to run as close to the metal as I can. I need this even more so when I am benchmarking my code. (Is this method taking a bit longer to execute because it is badly coded or is it running slow because the host OS decided to start downloading an update in the background.)
 
Nice speech.
But meanwhile a 2006 OG Macbook has no problem running the latest build of Windows 10.
Still capable of accomplishing its original intended tasks relatively well.
Not so much if staying on the Apple side of the software.

It’s original intended task was not to run Windows 10.
And it can still run the 2006 Mac OS.
 
It’s original intended task was not to run Windows 10.
And it can still run the 2006 Mac OS.

Its original task was to run office and web browsing apps.
It can do such with maximum compatibility and safety on Windows 10 as of today. You can run the latest Edge, Chrome, Firefox, whichever you like.
Not so much on macOS 10.6 or whichever is the latest supported version.
 
Its original task was to run office and web browsing apps.
It can do such with maximum compatibility and safety on Windows 10 as of today. You can run the latest Edge, Chrome, Firefox, whichever you like.
Not so much on macOS 10.6 or whichever is the latest supported version.
Nonsense. macOS 10.6 can run every piece of software it was intended to run on the day it came out.
 
But meanwhile a 2006 OG Macbook has no problem running the latest build of Windows 10.

I have to say you are right. If you want to run 14 year old hardware, Apple is probably not the ecosystem for you. The downside of a smaller ecosystem is that it does not make sense for them to continue to support ancient hardware forever like it does for Microsoft.

It can do such with maximum compatibility and safety on Windows 10 as of today. You can run the latest Edge, Chrome, Firefox, whichever you like.

Just to clarify, it runs the 32-bit version of Windows 10, so it also will not run much of the Windows 10 software that ships today. However, you are correct, if you define your terms just right, you can make it clear that Windows is a better ecosystem for your needs.
 
Let us say that Apple offered $5,000,000 per port. For remastered ports, they would get a 6-12 month exclusive. Since both Apple and the studio have reasons to ensure that the port is good, let us include that the studio gets ”final cut”.

For less than the price of a single Apple TV+ movie, they could get 50 AAA games in various genres and of various ages. They would want to work with Epic to ensure that Unreal was as optimized as possible, with Unity for their engine and (maybe) Crytek for theirs. This would also make it easier for new games going forward to support the platform.

I would think it makes more sense for Apple to continue to pursue their current Apple Arcade initiatives over paying for a port. The only people that will pick up the ports are people that have Mac as their game machine. After this ARM change, it will be interesting to see if/how people's gaming habits adapt. One of the major criticisms that we always see from ports is that there are very few that are done well. To the Fortnite/LoL comment, people still resort to using Windows bootcamp for those instead of playing it on MacOS.

As a package (all the content apps, fitness apps, and games together), it is way more interesting than it was.

Agreed. It's progress, but there's a growing amount of stagnancy with Apple Arcade right now.

In exactly the same way, Apple Silicon should do that for Apple’s platform. Especially with the improvements in SwiftUI, and support from Epic/Unity (and maybe CryTek), one can develop a game that will run on all Apple Silicon platforms with a single code base. That gives a developer AppleTV, AS Macs, and iPad and iPad Pro tablets. Shared state using their own platforms or the newly improved Game Center. If they are all Metal based, then even supporting existing Intel Macs is reasonable.

The single code base to run all Apple platforms is definitely a plus. The unfortunate reality is each will still have its own subtle nuances of optimization. Another thing that you're missing is that there is a social networking aspect to the consoles/PC. This is something Apple would have to work on to add as well. Apple would have to provide not only the titles but the same feature parity with its competitors' platforms.

The question is what else is needed to make it compelling as gaming platform.

That was the point of my post. The number of things they need in addition to hardware are things that take investment, time, and understanding. For the three facets, Apple hasn't really shown a considerable interest outside of mobile gaming.

If someone is deciding to purchase a $400 PS4 and a $30 game (older AAA title), vs. an $150-$250 (with or without a controller bundled) AppleTV, with a $30 game that runs on it, an iPad/iPad Pro, and/or a Mac and things are a bit different. Especially if Apple gets 10-20 AAA titles for the platform (maybe even does a bundle deal where one gets 10 games for $100). Add to that all the other things the device does and it might be compelling.

I just don’t see it. When you bundle a ton of games, who becomes your target audience for this? It's definitely not that PS4 buyer we are profiling. The only thing alluring about Apple right now is mobile gaming because you have 2 very easy choices: iOS vs Android. When you involve the console/desktop tiers, the competition stiffens. I think Apple would really need strong exclusivity from top tier gaming studios to have this be a conversation.
 
Nonsense. macOS 10.6 can run every piece of software it was intended to run on the day it came out.

Well, try to go on and browse the web with 10.6 - and you will see that many pages won't work, aside from the security problems. There is no modern browser running on 10.6 !!
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.
Back
Top