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People like us were instrumental in making Apple successful! It was evangelists like us that sent huge amounts of business to Apple! I can’t even begin to count how many people I got to switch over to Macs and Apple's other products. I don’t do that anywhere near as much as I used to.

You're the one that has a problem with "reality," in this case. Just like your hero Tim Apple Crook all you care about is maximizing profits.
That’s funny. Come back with one fact and I’ll take you seriously.

You think you had more to do with Apple’s success than Tim Cook, who has led the creation of $700B in shareholder value.

Tell me more.

Also, list your experience at Fortune 10 companies.
 
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People like us were instrumental in making Apple successful! It was evangelists like us that sent huge amounts of business to Apple! I can’t even begin to count how many people I got to switch over to Macs and Apple's other products. I don’t do that anywhere near as much as I used to.

You're the one that has a problem with "reality," in this case. Just like your hero Tim Apple Crook all you care about is maximizing profits.

Key word - "were"

Back when Apple was a way smaller company, they could lead a flock. They could afford to give this small group of die-hard fans what they wanted in terms of technological and aesthetic leadership, and in a sense, Apple had to, because you were its sustenance.

You are not the target market for Apple anymore. Today, Apple serves a lot more people, the proportion of Apple's userbase today that are true believers is far smaller, and my guess is that your demographic is simply no longer profitable enough for Apple to focus resources on supporting exclusively, especially if those products are clearly not going to resonate with the rest.

This is why I don't think Apple is going to release a mid-tier headless Mac. The majority of users get along just fine with the iMac, and you are just going to have to settle for the same tools that the rest of us "plebians" use.

In this new reality, that original core user and investor base.. those true believers.. they don’t matter anymore. They got to enjoy the ride from the start, but now their secluded island has been inundated by a population of visitors that outnumbers them by a couple of orders of magnitude.

The current user base and investor loyalty is not based on conviction, or a personal identity-based affiliation. Rather, they are far more grounded in pragmatic self interest. For this user base, it’s a combination of their understanding of Apple products as “good products” and “cool products”, their understanding of the Apple brand as a trustworthy, fashionable, quality, desirable brand. For investors, it’s the typical investor mix - some mix of growth-oriented investment and revenue-oriented (i.e. dividend-oriented) investment.

This is the kind of loyalty most companies have to work with. It’s not as strong as the kind of identity and conviction-based loyalty that sustained the company through its dark days.

The problem is that this new, more pragmatically loyal user base and investor base is also what gives Apple its new identity as the most successful company in the world. The user and investor base isn’t a flock anymore. It can’t “be led” like it used to. The company that could forge ahead with drastic decisions, relatively assured that its user base would follow, cannot make that assumption anymore.

Instead of leading a flock, it now has to cater to an audience. This is a drastically different relationship. It is this new population who sets the tone for what kind of company Apple will be, because they have the power in this new relationship, not you.

Has Apple “lost its way”? Apple will slowly transition into a much more traditional company, and its behaviour will start to match those of a traditional company’s behaviour. If you want to consider that as them “losing their way”, then yeah.

I wouldn’t call it “losing their way”, though. Circumstances changed, and the company changed, and that’s just the way she goes.

And no one is more acutely aware of this than Tim Cook himself. Hence the delicate balancing act he plays with all sides.

I will devote this comic strip to you though. You all fought the good fight and helped usher Apple into a new world order. It's just a shame that you have no place in this brave new world that you help create for Apple.
f890edf7a065e1dcfc9335d0715aea7e.jpg
ce6e186f608b61b236003561d371d084.jpg
 
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If you get your work done on an iPad, cudos to you. I wish my tasks were that simple!

I think, the “pro users” or advanced consumers are complaining, that it seems impossible for multi billion company to maybe cater for several segments, so all user could be happy?

It’s shouldn’t be all about you either.
 
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If you get your work done on an iPad, cudos to you. I wish my tasks were that simple!

I think, the “pro users” or advanced consumers are complaining, that it seems impossible for multi billion company to maybe cater for several segments, so all user could be happy?

It’s shouldn’t be all about you either.
Well, I wouldn't say that it's all about me. At least insofar that I have zero ability to influence Apple's product roadmap or dictate what products to release or features to include.

I just happen to be a very satisfied Apple customer whose products have suited my computing needs. In school, my iPad gets mirrored to the projector screen via an apple tv. I am replying to you right now via my 5k iMac at home. I am happy with my 8+. Love my Apple Watch when it comes to fitness tracking, and AirPods have simply been awesome. So I buy the apple products that work for me, skip the ones that don't (while shopping for alternatives), and it's that simple.

If you think my tone is subversive, then you should probably see all the negativity and vitriol that have been hurled at products like the AirPods and Apple Watch when they were first released. How "Where's my Mac Pro?" somehow gets inserted into every Apple thread. How much Apple was lambasted for no longer being innovative the week after Samsung announced their folding phone (and we all know how that one turned out). And it all circles back to the notion that Apple has somehow lost its way simply because it is no longer putting out a certain product that a very vocal minority of users want (or think they want).

So no, I don't hate pro users, but I do detest what they have come to represent, just because they believe that Apple somehow "owes" them a mid-tier Mac Pro or whatever it is that they are asking for, and how their sense of entitlement invariably finds a way of spilling to the rest of the forums and making the whole environment that much more toxic and acerbic for it.

So I don't think this makes me subversive. I am simply pointing out an observation - that Apple has long outgrown its core users (if they can even be called that), and simply doesn't have the engineering resources or the financial incentive to give them what they want any more. Especially when, as pointed out countless times, an appropriately specced-out iMac will likely get the job done, albeit at greater expense down the road. It might not allow them to accomplish the task in the exact manner they want it done, but that's not to say it can't done well.

That's really all it boils down to.
 
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...People like us were instrumental in making Apple successful! It was evangelists like us that sent huge amounts of business to Apple! I can’t even begin to count how many people I got to switch over to Macs and Apple's other products. I don’t do that anywhere near as much as I used to.

You're the one that has a problem with "reality," in this case. Just like your hero Tim Apple Crook all you care about is maximizing profits.
And people like me are instrumental in the continuing success at Apple. We got an entire branch of the family to switch over from android. So what’s the point? Apple had to change with the times and if one doesn’t like the ceo, management and products there is plenty of competition.
[doublepost=1560609979][/doublepost]
It will be around as long as there are people such as the one that you are responding to. Case in point though, the Above Avalon author got into the ecosystem when Apple was already successful after flopping for several years. If Steve didn’t have iTunes for Windows, it could’ve been a very different story today.
It’s going to be around as long as people like me like the products that are available. With hundreds of millions of customers there is no way there is a general consensus on the state of Apple. One objective way to view Apple is how is it doing financially rather than the opinions of random internet posters.
[doublepost=1560610661][/doublepost]
Is that article going to cancel out everything I wrote? Of course not. That jackass has been riding off of the brand and reputation that Steve Jobs gave value to. It will not last if he sticks around. The signs are already there.
No. Tim Cook has been using the brand and reputation, that he as Steve Jobs right hand man helped create, to further the market penetration of Apple products. In 2011, as it seemed to me some MR posters, people gave Apple 5 years. In 2019 some sentiment seems to be 10 years from now.

Tim Cook is a successful Ceo.
[doublepost=1560611326][/doublepost]
And I see it that way.

More people prefer not to buy apple products than the ones that they do.
True. You are referring to android market share of course. However Apple takes the lions share of the profits. What’s more important.

In some areas more than others, of course. Regarding the late-added features, I cannot buy this explanation for a second. They are always struggling behind competition regarding features. They even deny the usability of some features, until they finally implement them, while they are never busy adding useless gimmicks and new emojis nobody asked for.
Use gimmicks until android implements those same features. Can you cite some examples of how Apple struggles behind the competition? And where Apple denied the usability?

And who said nobody asked for useless gimmicks and emojis. They are a fun part of the iPhone experience.

So, there will always be two point of views, no matter how you twist it. The shareholder's view (and the apple fanatics - although these should not be seriously considered; being a fanatic of a company is dumb of its own league) and the user's view.
No, there is only one point of view. The buying public. That’s what determines Apples’ success. It’s irrelevant the mindset of the customer.
 
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One objective way to view Apple is how is it doing financially rather than the opinions of random internet posters.

Looking at things financially is just a snapshot of the outcome in a binary narrative. Many companies will do well in one year and not so well the next year.

Many prior to Apple not mentioning unit sales have said that iPhone unit sales will start to hit to stagnate hence the need to grow other areas of the business.

Did financials forecast that?
 
Looking at things financially is just a snapshot of the outcome in a binary narrative. Many companies will do well in one year and not so well the next year.
Financials are THE key indicator, not random internet posters opinions, which was the point.

Many prior to Apple not mentioning unit sales have said that iPhone unit sales will start to hit to stagnate hence the need to grow other areas of the business.

Did financials forecast that?
Funny thing how Apple is diversifying. It’s almost like Apple took the opinion of the internet posters that said that. /s
 
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Looking at things financially is just a snapshot of the outcome in a binary narrative. Many companies will do well in one year and not so well the next year.

It’s a lot more objective than random internet posts claiming that Apple is doomed every chance they get.

Or maybe it’s simply a case of the boy who cried wolf too many times for me. After so many misses, I am not sure just why the critics should be accorded any credibility in this regard. If it’s track record we want to talk about, how many times have they been wrong already?

Rather, the impression I am getting from them is more that of a jilted ex-lover who keeps crying “doomed” every chance they get, in the hopes that they will one day be proven right eventually and can then go “aha!” Sorta like a “broken clock is still right twice a day” scenario. Even if they are right, they will not have been right for the correct reasons.

And the number of times “design” is mentioned?

Zero.

Which coincides with my inclination to believe what they say.

So no. If they want me to believe that they know the reason why Apple will fail, then at least demonstrate that they understand the reason why Apple grew, and how it came to grow to become as large as it is today.

Until then...
 
You think you had more to do with Apple’s success than Tim Cook, who has led the creation of $700B in shareholder value.

It's not like one person was responsible for Apple's success, aside from maybe Steve Jobs deserving quite a bit of credit for vision, etc.

But, what is the reason for Tim's success? Because he has a MBA? Those are a dime-a-dozen. Could it be that he has been an excellent manager of a success trajectory handed over to him? Maybe more that he has done a good job of not messing it up too much, rather than the primary cause?

Maybe, maybe not. But I think the point I (and others) are trying to make is that there is a huge difference between the success that comes from product excellence, and properly running a business so products are available on-time, in sufficient quantities, with proper pricing, marketing, etc.

One won't work without the other. They are complementary skills in business. I guess my (our) fear is that Tim has mostly the latter, and little of the former. If that's the case, then it is more a matter of how long Apple can run (even expertly run) on the 'capital' it started with when Tim took over.

Without turning back to the roots of what made Apple so great, the question is more how long they can make it. If they return to their roots (or, some would argue they haven't left them), then Tim is a wonderful figure to push them even higher.

In other words, it isn't so much Tim that is the problem, but whether Tim is in the correct position. He's a crucial figure, but should he be CEO?

Key word - "were"

Back when Apple was a way smaller company, they could lead a flock. They could afford to give this small group of die-hard fans what they wanted in terms of technological and aesthetic leadership, and in a sense, Apple had to, because you were its sustenance.

You are not the target market for Apple anymore.
...
In this new reality, that original core user and investor base.. those true believers.. they don’t matter anymore.
...
The current user base and investor loyalty is not based on conviction, or a personal identity-based affiliation. Rather, they are far more grounded in pragmatic self interest.
...
Instead of leading a flock, it now has to cater to an audience.
...
Has Apple “lost its way”? Apple will slowly transition into a much more traditional company, and its behaviour will start to match those of a traditional company’s behaviour. If you want to consider that as them “losing their way”, then yeah.

What you wrote was interesting, and I suppose I agree with most of it. Except, I'm not sure I agree with this just being the way things have to be, or it being positive.

While Apple had people like Guy Kawasaki, who employed an 'evangelist' form of marketing, it wouldn't have gotten anywhere with that approach if the products hadn't been stellar. They didn't just create a culture like Starbucks around some frivolous shared belief/culture. The products were actually revolutionary and life/work-flow-changing. That's why we became 'true believers.'

Interestingly, my 'other career' is in theology/Christian apologetics, so I'm pretty well qualified to speak to this metaphor you're developing here.

If Apple had just raised their 'flock' on a bunch of fluff with nothing underneath, then yeah, changing it wouldn't much matter. They are just moving to a different model. But, if that culture, evangelism, etc. were really based on 'the truth', ie. something of substance (which to 'us' it was), then if that core thing gets disturbed, all that is left is fluff, no matter how 'big-corporate' it becomes.

Where I think you're wrong is that it doesn't matter anymore. And, your statement about being based on "conviction, or a personal identity-based affiliation" vs "pragmatic self interest" is telling. First, it never was based on personal-identity affiliation. Those were the critiques from the outside. It was based on conviction, but on conviction of something we who experienced it found to be true. The products were better, the workflows improved. It saved us time and money, while also being a more pleasurable computing experience.

Following your religion or church metaphor, I can tell you what happens there with a shift you claim Apple is making. Such churches, essentially, die. You can't move from something that is true, which people believe and become evangelists for, to something based on 'pragmatic self interest' where the 'church/religion' now cater to the flock.

This is the cart before the horse thing I'm talking about, exactly. Or, like Henry Ford's 'people would have wanted a faster horse.'

What made Apple great, was exceptional, world/life-changing products. Products so good, they created a loyal customer base who actually became evangelists for the company, not because we cared so much if Apple did well, but because we wanted to see those products change the lives of others, as they did ours.

You can't dump that, and transition to trying to please fickle consumers with fashion products. Well, you can for a time, until you burn through the hard-earned brand reputation, and people start to realize it's just empty marketing, anymore. I hope Apple hasn't gone there, but that was the fear. I'm encouraged by some of the more recent moves, and I think Apple might be getting their mojo back.

If you think my tone is subversive, then you should probably see all the negativity and vitriol that have been hurled at products like the AirPods and Apple Watch when they were first released. How "Where's my Mac Pro?" somehow gets inserted into every Apple thread. How much Apple was lambasted for no longer being innovative the week after Samsung announced their folding phone (and we all know how that one turned out). And it all circles back to the notion that Apple has somehow lost its way simply because it is no longer putting out a certain product that a very vocal minority of users want (or think they want).

So no, I don't hate pro users, but I do detest what they have come to represent, just because they believe that Apple somehow "owes" them a mid-tier Mac Pro or whatever it is that they are asking for, and how their sense of entitlement invariably finds a way of spilling to the rest of the forums and making the whole environment that much more toxic and acerbic for it.

So I don't think this makes me subversive. I am simply pointing out an observation - that Apple has long outgrown its core users (if they can even be called that), and simply doesn't have the engineering resources or the financial incentive to give them what they want any more.

Well, the Internet is full of stupid-noise of all sorts. Non of we 'pro' or even prosumer users would agree on several of your points above. There is harsh criticism and over-enthusiastic praise for every Apple product/decision if you look around and cherry-pick.

As for users wanting the next pro machine and expecting it, that's not entitlement. Apple provided people like us with a toolset and workflow we depend on, and to suddenly change that and change focus (while not specifically telling us, that we've changed and 'get lost') isn't something any company should do.

And, if Apple has truly outgrown their core users, then it is over (eventually). Because Apple's core users were people with the insight to recognize a superior product and pay more for it. If that is gone, and people are now satisfied with fashion or the joy of sharing the white-ear-bud, then it is just a matter of time. Fashion trends change, sometimes rather quickly. (I don't think your read of the situation is accurate, I'm just saying *if* it were, then this would be the case.)

So no. If they want me to believe that they know the reason why Apple will fail, then at least demonstrate that they understand the reason why Apple grew, and how it came to grow to become as large as it is today.

Simple. If they change what made them successful too dramatically, they won't continue that success.

Note, this is much different than the 'they are doomed' mantra that has been running through the press and among tech-pundits since Apple became a company.

If you can't recognize the difference between press/tech-pundits with all their failed reasoning why Apple might fail, and former Apple-evangelists concerned about their future, I'm not quite sure where to go with you.
[doublepost=1560727715][/doublepost]
Funny thing how Apple is diversifying. It’s almost like Apple took the opinion of the internet posters that said that. /s

Well, I think this is part of what gives me hope. Some of the things Apple has done recently, could almost be pulled from the criticisms showered all over forums like these. It makes me think they are actually paying attention and have responded. That's a very positive thing.

The vision to produce live-changing products is still in question, I suppose. But, at least a continuation of the trajectory on existing product lines is a big help.

I think my main concern (at least shorter term), now, is if they have enough UI know-how left to keep the OSs and key software products from becoming ruined further. Because, even if they nail the hardware, it still takes the software to make it worthwhile. Their advantage, is that the rest of the industry is still even worse.

As for the diversification... that part kind of scares me. They are diversifying SO much, and into areas that seem to just be chasing after the trends. I guess they have the money to blow at this point, but I'd rather see them not just blow it.
 
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It's not like one person was responsible for Apple's success, aside from maybe Steve Jobs deserving quite a bit of credit for vision, etc.

But, what is the reason for Tim's success? Because he has a MBA? Those are a dime-a-dozen. Could it be that he has been an excellent manager of a success trajectory handed over to him? Maybe more that he has done a good job of not messing it up too much, rather than the primary cause?

Maybe, maybe not. But I think the point I (and others) are trying to make is that there is a huge difference between the success that comes from product excellence, and properly running a business so products are available on-time, in sufficient quantities, with proper pricing, marketing, etc.

One won't work without the other. They are complementary skills in business. I guess my (our) fear is that Tim has mostly the latter, and little of the former. If that's the case, then it is more a matter of how long Apple can run (even expertly run) on the 'capital' it started with when Tim took over.

Without turning back to the roots of what made Apple so great, the question is more how long they can make it. If they return to their roots (or, some would argue they haven't left them), then Tim is a wonderful figure to push them even higher.

In other words, it isn't so much Tim that is the problem, but whether Tim is in the correct position. He's a crucial figure, but should he be CEO?



What you wrote was interesting, and I suppose I agree with most of it. Except, I'm not sure I agree with this just being the way things have to be, or it being positive.

While Apple had people like Guy Kawasaki, who employed an 'evangelist' form of marketing, it wouldn't have gotten anywhere with that approach if the products hadn't been stellar. They didn't just create a culture like Starbucks around some frivolous shared belief/culture. The products were actually revolutionary and life/work-flow-changing. That's why we became 'true believers.'

Interestingly, my 'other career' is in theology/Christian apologetics, so I'm pretty well qualified to speak to this metaphor you're developing here.

If Apple had just raised their 'flock' on a bunch of fluff with nothing underneath, then yeah, changing it wouldn't much matter. They are just moving to a different model. But, if that culture, evangelism, etc. were really based on 'the truth', ie. something of substance (which to 'us' it was), then if that core thing gets disturbed, all that is left is fluff, no matter how 'big-corporate' it becomes.

Where I think you're wrong is that it doesn't matter anymore. And, your statement about being based on "conviction, or a personal identity-based affiliation" vs "pragmatic self interest" is telling. First, it never was based on personal-identity affiliation. Those were the critiques from the outside. It was based on conviction, but on conviction of something we who experienced it found to be true. The products were better, the workflows improved. It saved us time and money, while also being a more pleasurable computing experience.

Following your religion or church metaphor, I can tell you what happens there with a shift you claim Apple is making. Such churches, essentially, die. You can't move from something that is true, which people believe and become evangelists for, to something based on 'pragmatic self interest' where the 'church/religion' now cater to the flock.

This is the cart before the horse thing I'm talking about, exactly. Or, like Henry Ford's 'people would have wanted a faster horse.'

What made Apple great, was exceptional, world/life-changing products. Products so good, they created a loyal customer base who actually became evangelists for the company, not because we cared so much if Apple did well, but because we wanted to see those products change the lives of others, as they did ours.

You can't dump that, and transition to trying to please fickle consumers with fashion products. Well, you can for a time, until you burn through the hard-earned brand reputation, and people start to realize it's just empty marketing, anymore. I hope Apple hasn't gone there, but that was the fear. I'm encouraged by some of the more recent moves, and I think Apple might be getting their mojo back.



Well, the Internet is full of stupid-noise of all sorts. Non of we 'pro' or even prosumer users would agree on several of your points above. There is harsh criticism and over-enthusiastic praise for every Apple product/decision if you look around and cherry-pick.

As for users wanting the next pro machine and expecting it, that's not entitlement. Apple provided people like us with a toolset and workflow we depend on, and to suddenly change that and change focus (while not specifically telling us, that we've changed and 'get lost') isn't something any company should do.

And, if Apple has truly outgrown their core users, then it is over (eventually). Because Apple's core users were people with the insight to recognize a superior product and pay more for it. If that is gone, and people are now satisfied with fashion or the joy of sharing the white-ear-bud, then it is just a matter of time. Fashion trends change, sometimes rather quickly. (I don't think your read of the situation is accurate, I'm just saying *if* it were, then this would be the case.)



Simple. If they change what made them successful too dramatically, they won't continue that success.

Note, this is much different than the 'they are doomed' mantra that has been running through the press and among tech-pundits since Apple became a company.

If you can't recognize the difference between press/tech-pundits with all their failed reasoning why Apple might fail, and former Apple-evangelists concerned about their future, I'm not quite sure where to go with you.
[doublepost=1560727715][/doublepost]

Well, I think this is part of what gives me hope. Some of the things Apple has done recently, could almost be pulled from the criticisms showered all over forums like these. It makes me think they are actually paying attention and have responded. That's a very positive thing.

The vision to produce live-changing products is still in question, I suppose. But, at least a continuation of the trajectory on existing product lines is a big help.

I think my main concern (at least shorter term), now, is if they have enough UI know-how left to keep the OSs and key software products from becoming ruined further. Because, even if they nail the hardware, it still takes the software to make it worthwhile. Their advantage, is that the rest of the industry is still even worse.

As for the diversification... that part kind of scares me. They are diversifying SO much, and into areas that seem to just be chasing after the trends. I guess they have the money to blow at this point, but I'd rather see them not just blow it.
Well, a Cook gets all the blame, especially around here, so he deserves credit for the $700B in shareholder value created.

Fair or unfair, he’s the CEO. He’s objectively doing a great job running the business, which is his job.

Based on his performance, yes, he should be CEO.
 
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I appreciate the way you responded to me the way you did. Few would have bothered taking the time to craft the lengthly, cogent and well-thought-out response that you did, and I hope this can inspire many others to do the same.

In other words, it isn't so much Tim that is the problem, but whether Tim is in the correct position. He's a crucial figure, but should he be CEO?

My answer is still yes, for the simple reason that there is no one rulebook on what a CEO ought to do or how he should run a company. You have people like Winston Churchill who could probably rally soldiers on the brink of death to make one final charge at the enemy, just as you have the likes of Eisenhower who quietly work behind the scenes to ensure the continued stability of a country, even though he didn't seem like he was doing much publicly. Both run things in wildly different ways, yet they did what was deemed necessary for the respective eras they inhabited, in accordance with their respective strengths.

But, what is the reason for Tim's success? Because he has a MBA? Those are a dime-a-dozen. Could it be that he has been an excellent manager of a success trajectory handed over to him? Maybe more that he has done a good job of not messing it up too much, rather than the primary cause?

That reason is very simple. He took on the bulk of Steve Job's CEO duties back when Steve was unwell, and so he already had on the job training when it came to running Apple. If we want to point fingers, I can also argue that it was actually Steve Jobs who was doing a very poor job of discharging his duties as the then-CEO of Apple.

I guess my (our) fear is that Tim has mostly the latter, and little of the former. If that's the case, then it is more a matter of how long Apple can run (even expertly run) on the 'capital' it started with when Tim took over.

You just said that no one person is responsible for Apple's success, and then go on to lament whether Tim Cook's lack of product expertise will be the doom of Apple?

I agree with you. Tim Cook has very little of the former (product excellence), and I really don't see that as an issue, not least because Jony Ive and his design team are still around at Apple. So Tim Cook doesn't need to be able to distinguish good design from bad because he has Jony Ive for that. Just like how he doesn't need to know how to write a single line of code because that's what your software engineers are hired to do. That's what Craig Federighi is paid to do.

I suspect that even if Steve Jobs were still alive now, he would probably have stepped aside in favour of Tim Cook anyways.
I’m simply not convinced that Apple would have be better off with Jobs at the helm with the company at its current size and trajectory anyways.

Following your religion or church metaphor, I can tell you what happens there with a shift you claim Apple is making. Such churches, essentially, die. You can't move from something that is true, which people believe and become evangelists for, to something based on 'pragmatic self interest' where the 'church/religion' now cater to the flock.

I guess that's the thing with analogies. I tried to pick the one I felt was best for the scenario I was trying to explain, and I suppose it works until it doesn't.

What I am trying to say is that I don't think Apple has changed. However, there is a difference between what Apple really is, and what people think Apple is.

I firmly believe that Apple at its very core is a design company, one that is focuses on removing barriers that are otherwise preventing people from interacting with technology. It just so happens that at the time they entered the market, Apple chose to exercise their design chops by rethinking how people ought to interact with a computer, because that was the product category in need of the biggest paradigm shift. But this doesn't mean Apple is a computer company; it just means that they were selling computers at the time, and there is nothing dictating that Apple has to keep selling computers for all posterity.

Then it was the iPod. Then the iPhone. Then the iPad. Now the Apple Watch and AirPods. Soon, it will be AR glasses. Are you seeing the pattern? Apple's product vision is based on making technology more relevant and personal. The company believes that technology is inherently too powerful and complex. Accordingly, in order for people to get the most out of technology, another ingredient is required: design.

Today, the bulk of Apple's revenue comes from the iphone (and its accompanying ecosystem), not the Mac. I can also understand why Apple is so much more enthusiastic about working on mobile and wearables - because these product categories offer so much more potential to be made more personal and intimate, moreso than the Mac. From Apple's perspective, the Mac is done. There is really only so much more they can do with it, and further attempts just results in the widely-criticised 2016 MBP, with its emphasis on non-spec updates from the Touchbar to the removal of Magsafe, but when you think about it, the 2016 MBP came about precisely because of Apple's design-led product culture.

While the products that Apple might emphasise differ from time to time, what hasn't changed is the design-led thinking process that led to their conception in the first place. Design is why Apple didn't release a budget iPhone, netbooks, a round smartwatch, or a foldable phone, but instead released the iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, AirPods and are now working on AR glasses and self-driving cars even as we speak.

It was the case then. It continues to be the case now, and I have seen nothing to suggest that it won't continue to be the case moving forward. The biggest risk to Apple is if were to become just another computer company.

You can't dump that, and transition to trying to please fickle consumers with fashion products. Well, you can for a time, until you burn through the hard-earned brand reputation, and people start to realize it's just empty marketing, anymore. I hope Apple hasn't gone there, but that was the fear. I'm encouraged by some of the more recent moves, and I think Apple might be getting their mojo back.

I don't think the iPhone is empty marketing. At least, people who tend to compare the iPhone spec for spec with other android smartphones tend to forget that it's not just the iPhone they are going up against, but the iPhone plus the combined weight of the Apple ecosystem. All of which come together to create a unique user experience that is hard to match.

However, I do believe the iPhone is, for lack of a better term, a lifestyle brand. There's a reason why you have memes of celebrities tweeting about android phones from iPhones. That's why you have Chinese OEMs rushing to copy the design language of various Apple products.

The world is going increasingly mobile. So I feel that Apple is not exactly wrong here. Focus on milking the iPhone while figuring out what's next, then use the success of the iPhone to break into adjacent markets whose success is predicated on having a strong mobile presence. Microsoft failed in mobile precisely because they were unable to leverage on their dominant desktop marketshare (because the two had little in common).

If Apple too had continued to focus on the Mac over the iPhone and Apple Watch, I doubt it would have been anywhere near as successful today as it is.

Simple. If they change what made them successful too dramatically, they won't continue that success.

Note, this is much different than the 'they are doomed' mantra that has been running through the press and among tech-pundits since Apple became a company.

If you can't recognize the difference between press/tech-pundits with all their failed reasoning why Apple might fail, and former Apple-evangelists concerned about their future, I'm not quite sure where to go with you.

That's the thing.

Former Apple-evangelists are more concerned about their future than the future of Apple's. Not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but there's a big difference between saying that "Apple no longer makes the products I need / want" and "Apple is doomed because it no longer makes the products I need / want".

This is still the Apple we know and love. The issue isn't that Apple has changed, but that our computing needs haven't. You have people who threw in their lot with Macs back when they were Apple's priority, and have built their entire workflows and possibly even careers around them. Decades later, the nature of their work hasn't changed, meaning they still need the same product that worked for them all these years back. Products that Apple no longer has a vested interest in devoting the same amount of attention to supporting because their priorities are somewhere else now.

I wouldn’t call it “losing their way”, though. Circumstances changed, and the company changed, and that’s just the way she goes.

PS: Hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I enjoyed typing it out.
 
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Well, a Cook gets all the blame, especially around here, so he deserves credit for the $700B in shareholder value created.
Fair or unfair, he’s the CEO. He’s objectively doing a great job running the business, which is his job.
Based on his performance, yes, he should be CEO.

Hmm, I guess that depends a bit on the conversation I'm having with Abazigal. Is the CEO just someone who runs things, or are they the leadership/vision person, too?

I guess I think more the latter. So, I'd see Cook being more the ideal COO, with someone else in the CEO spot who is more leadership/visionary focused.

I appreciate the way you responded to me the way you did. Few would have bothered taking the time to craft the lengthly, cogent and well-thought-out response that you did, and I hope this can inspire many others to do the same.

At my best, I try to respond to everyone that way... though I can certainly get snarky, cynical, etc. too. It's too easy in this non-face-to-face medium, to just let loose... which I'm guilty of once in a while too, I suppose. But, we should all try to do better!

My answer is still yes, for the simple reason that there is no one rulebook on what a CEO ought to do or how he should run a company. You have people like Winston Churchill ...

I suppose, but maybe this is the point at debate. How much should a CEO be the vision person? Isn't the COO more the optimize operations person? I agree that a lot of CEOs aren't that, but shouldn't they be?

That reason is very simple. He took on the bulk of Steve Job's CEO duties back when Steve was unwell, and so he already had on the job training when it came to running Apple. If we want to point fingers, I can also argue that it was actually Steve Jobs who was doing a very poor job of discharging his duties as the then-CEO of Apple.

My understanding is that Tim had been doing that for some time before he became CEO, too. So, as far as that goes, I agree. But, I was talking more about Apple's success at introducing world-changing products and innovation leadership. Tim had a lot to work with in the pipeline, and newer stuff that has been introduced more recently (prior to the Mac Pro, Mac mini, etc.) was becoming somewhat questionable.

What we don't know is if Apple really shifted after Jobs' death, and then course-corrected a few years ago... or what. We know they did a bit of course-correction on the Mac Pro, but beyond that, I guess all we can do is speculate.

You just said that no one person is responsible for Apple's success, and then go on to lament whether Tim Cook's lack of product expertise will be the doom of Apple?

I agree with you. Tim Cook has very little of the former (product excellence), and I really don't see that as an issue, not least because Jony Ive and his design team are still around at Apple. So Tim Cook doesn't need to be able to distinguish good design from bad because he has Jony Ive for that. Just like how he doesn't need to know how to write a single line of code because that's what your software engineers are hired to do. That's what Craig Federighi is paid to do.

I suspect that even if Steve Jobs were still alive now, he would probably have stepped aside in favour of Tim Cook anyways.
I’m simply not convinced that Apple would have be better off with Jobs at the helm with the company at its current size and trajectory anyways.

Hmm, I agree in terms of operations, but guess that comes back to the CEO vs COO thing.

But, having the design in Ive's hands isn't necessarily a comfort w/o Jobs there. I have no doubt Ives is a skilled industrial designer, but is he good at design vision, or especially (given what I've heard Steve was so excellent at) saying NO to the right things.

While I've heard Steve was kind of a jerk, he was good at telling people 'no' and sending them back to the drawing board when things weren't 'good enough.' That might be a primary thing that is missing at the current Apple, and doesn't seem a quality that is strong with Tim.

I guess that's the thing with analogies. I tried to pick the one I felt was best for the scenario I was trying to explain, and I suppose it works until it doesn't.

What I am trying to say is that I don't think Apple has changed. However, there is a difference between what Apple really is, and what people think Apple is.

I firmly believe that Apple at its very core is a design company, one that is focuses on removing barriers that are otherwise preventing people from interacting with technology. It just so happens that at the time they entered the market, Apple chose to exercise their design chops by rethinking how people ought to interact with a computer, because that was the product category in need of the biggest paradigm shift. But this doesn't mean Apple is a computer company; it just means that they were selling computers at the time, and there is nothing dictating that Apple has to keep selling computers for all posterity.

I think I'm with you so far...

Then it was the iPod. Then the iPhone. Then the iPad. Now the Apple Watch and AirPods. Soon, it will be AR glasses. Are you seeing the pattern? Apple's product vision is based on making technology more relevant and personal. The company believes that technology is inherently too powerful and complex. Accordingly, in order for people to get the most out of technology, another ingredient is required: design.

I suppose, but are things like AR glasses or self-driving cars, things of the future that Apple should be investing heavily in? Or, are they current fads, or possibly wastes of time/resources?

I think my issue is more with Apple shifting into the services, and putting so many resources into all these potential future paths, before they get the issues ironed out with their core products.

These are also all areas where design doesn't seem to be a huge problem, where Apple is playing catch-up, and for which it doesn't seem the Apple solution is in any way improved, just on platform. (ie: an on-platform alternative to add a few bucks to the revenue, for people to stick with Apple-solutions.)

IMO, none of these services are viable w/o the platform. No one out there is going to want these Apple services unless they are already Apple users. And, even for we Apple users, most of the time the non-Apple solutions are superior to the Apple ones (if we take the trouble to go non-default).

That just doesn't seem to be the Apple I knew from the past.

Today, the bulk of Apple's revenue comes from the iphone (and its accompanying ecosystem), not the Mac. I can also understand why Apple is so much more enthusiastic about working on mobile and wearables - because these product categories offer so much more potential to be made more personal and intimate, moreso than the Mac. From Apple's perspective, the Mac is done. There is really only so much more they can do with it, and further attempts just results in the widely-criticised 2016 MBP, with its emphasis on non-spec updates from the Touchbar to the removal of Magsafe, but when you think about it, the 2016 MBP came about precisely because of Apple's design-led product culture.

Hmm, so here I strongly disagree. Whatever the 2016 MBP was, it wasn't about Apple's design-led culture, or at least anything that would have escaped Apple in the past. It was bad design in so many ways. More like the stuff we see coming out of industrial design school competitions (ie: flashy, artsy, non-sense that won't perform real-world).

While the products that Apple might emphasise differ from time to time, what hasn't changed is the design-led thinking process that led to their conception in the first place. Design is why Apple didn't release a budget iPhone, netbooks, a round smartwatch, or a foldable phone, but instead released the iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, AirPods and are now working on AR glasses and self-driving cars even as we speak.

It was the case then. It continues to be the case now, and I have seen nothing to suggest that it won't continue to be the case moving forward. The biggest risk to Apple is if were to become just another computer company.

But, isn't the biggest threat if they become 'just another' anything company? Who cares if it is computers or self-driving cars?

I agree in terms of Apple's past proper design decisions, and properly keeping function in check with form. I think the reason some of us are worried, is precisely because we see that getting out of balance. In other words, fashion (the horror side of style) and bling are outweighing that excellent design balance of the past that you highlight.

Or, with AR glasses and self-driving cars, are there even future products there to be had? I suppose they have to experiment too, but I wouldn't count on those things as the future.

I don't think the iPhone is empty marketing. At least, people who tend to compare the iPhone spec for spec with other android smartphones tend to forget that it's not just the iPhone they are going up against, but the iPhone plus the combined weight of the Apple ecosystem. All of which come together to create a unique user experience that is hard to match.

However, I do believe the iPhone is, for lack of a better term, a lifestyle brand. There's a reason why you have memes of celebrities tweeting about android phones from iPhones. That's why you have Chinese OEMs rushing to copy the design language of various Apple products.

The world is going increasingly mobile. So I feel that Apple is not exactly wrong here. Focus on milking the iPhone while figuring out what's next, then use the success of the iPhone to break into adjacent markets whose success is predicated on having a strong mobile presence. Microsoft failed in mobile precisely because they were unable to leverage on their dominant desktop marketshare (because the two had little in common).

If Apple too had continued to focus on the Mac over the iPhone and Apple Watch, I doubt it would have been anywhere near as successful today as it is.

Oh, I don't think the iPhone is empty marketing, either. But, I think there are more and more fashion oriented decisions being made with their products/services.

I don't regret that they focused on the iPhone. The problem was the utter lack of emphasis on the Mac. But, not just the Mac, but the designers/influencers who depended on the Mac. And, the whole cohort or Apple evangelists who were primarily Mac based, who they just left hanging (at least for quite a long time).

That's the thing.

Former Apple-evangelists are more concerned about their future than the future of Apple's. Not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but there's a big difference between saying that "Apple no longer makes the products I need / want" and "Apple is doomed because it no longer makes the products I need / want".

This is still the Apple we know and love. The issue isn't that Apple has changed, but that our computing needs haven't. You have people who threw in their lot with Macs back when they were Apple's priority, and have built their entire workflows and possibly even careers around them. Decades later, the nature of their work hasn't changed, meaning they still need the same product that worked for them all these years back. Products that Apple no longer has a vested interest in devoting the same amount of attention to supporting because their priorities are somewhere else now.

I wouldn’t call it “losing their way”, though. Circumstances changed, and the company changed, and that’s just the way she goes.

PS: Hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I enjoyed typing it out.

Well, there is also a difference between what I need/want and what an entire industry needs/wants. Especially if that industry were the 'bread and butter' behind Apple, and have huge sway with culture.

I just get sick of the 'doomed' stuff all getting lumped together. Media and tech-pundits have been preaching 'Apple doomed' forever, but their reasoning was all over the place and messed up. The people now saying 'Apple will be doomed if they don't change' are often worried about substantial shifts they see in what made Apple successful in the first place. That was mostly what I was getting at.

I hope you're right that Apple is still the Apple we know and love. But, I take issue with 'supporting' and 'priorities are somewhere else.' Today's Apple has a bigger Mac business than they ever had. Proportionately, they should be able to put more resources into the Mac than ever. If they aren't, it signals a problem.

However, my main point re: 'loosing their way' is in regard to where their priorities are put. The 'old' Apple was focused on UI/UX and making the very best products... and so long as they didn't mess up the business aspects too much, that virtually guaranteed success (just not maybe the surprising amount of success we've seen).

But, if priorities become as they are for so many other large companies, centered around profits, marketing, etc. with just mediocre profits, then I am concerned about them in the long term. A lot of companies pull off survival with mediocre products and lots of smoke&mirrors, but that only goes so far... and it doesn't change the world.
 
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I didnt hear about that! My god that is quite the security compromise. Security and not dealing with viruses, mallware, and hackers for over 15 years now is one of the reasons I am still an Apple user. Going back to windows with all its security compromises just seems like a chore.
But if Apple are going to keep dropping the ball on security then I see little reason to pay top dollar for a Mac.

Apologies, it was just over a year ago and with High Sierra

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.macrumors.com/2017/11/28/macos-high-sierra-bug-admin-access/amp/
 
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True. You are referring to android market share of course. However Apple takes the lions share of the profits. What’s more important.

I'm referring to android market share for phones and to PC market share for computers. And what's more important is also objective. Why should I care if apple's money-grabbing policies make them that rich ? I'm not an apple shareholder. I mostly care if a feature I use is also available to all other phones out there. Proprietary locked-down features are not very useful for devices that are supposed to help us communicate with each other. So they can remove as many adapters as they want from iPhone box, and keep denying to include fast chargers in order to milk their customers as much as possible. I'm sure it's profitable for them, but not for me.

Use gimmicks until android implements those same features. Can you cite some examples of how Apple struggles behind the competition? And where Apple denied the usability?

All of the main iOS and iPad OS features presented this year's WWDC are long-time android features. And many are still missing. I'm fine with that, companies do that constantly. But the apple innovation bubble should burst at last.

And who said nobody asked for useless gimmicks and emojis. They are a fun part of the iPhone experience.

No, there is only one point of view. The buying public. That’s what determines Apples’ success. It’s irrelevant the mindset of the customer.

The buying public is also called market share. And apple's market share is small and getting smaller. People can afford getting milked that much, before enough is enough.
 
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I'm referring to android market share for phones and to PC market share for computers. And what's more important is also objective. Why should I care if apple's money-grabbing policies make them that rich ? I'm not an apple shareholder. I mostly care if a feature I use is also available to all other phones out there. Proprietary locked-down features are not very useful for devices that are supposed to help us communicate with each other. So they can remove as many adapters as they want from iPhone box, and keep denying to include fast chargers in order to milk their customers as much as possible. I'm sure it's profitable for them, but not for me.
What’s important to users is subjective, which is why I use iPhones. That iPhone is proprietary and locked down works to apple’s advantage in providing a superior experience over android, IMO. Of course with android only google makes out as the handset manufactures are tripping over themselves to rake in a buck.

All of the main iOS and iPad OS features presented this year's WWDC are long-time android features. And many are still missing. I'm fine with that, companies do that constantly. But the apple innovation bubble should burst at last.
They may be available in android before iOS but generally android copies from other places. I’m fine with all of the copying.

The buying public is also called market share. And apple's market share is small and getting smaller. People can afford getting milked that much, before enough is enough.
Apple’s market share is getting smaller as throw away android handsets are literally pumping up apple’s share of the profits. Apple seemingly cares less about market share if you follow the trends of where they seem to be headed.
 
... and keep denying to include fast chargers in order to milk their customers as much as possible. I'm sure it's profitable for them, but not for me. ...

Just remember that fast charging is bad for battery life. It probably should be optional for people who really need it, while most people should just use the slower charging. I charge my phone overnight, and that's all I need (for example).

... What’s important to users is subjective, which is why I use iPhones. ...

And, then there is the privacy aspect. The biggest problem with Android is that it's from Google. I really don't trust Google with much of anything anymore besides some search (though I use DuckDuckGo or StartPage most of the time), and Gmail (though I've been thinking about switching that, too).

Google just can't be trusted, and if you use their products, you're being subsidized by them selling you.

That's aside from security issues, update issues, worse UX, etc. It is really kind of the old Mac vs Windows debate, just IMO, at an even higher differentiation.

... Apple seemingly cares less about market share if you follow the trends of where they seem to be headed.

Market share isn't all that relevant beyond a certain point, aside from a marketing spec bragging point. Once you have enough market share to support a healthy developer eco-system, does it really matter after that?

That was the big talking point back in the Mac/Windows days as well. Windows has more market share. Who cares? It didn't help make Windows better, just more. Chevy or Ford probably sell far more of a particular model than BMW or Porsche too. Going up to a Porsche owner and saying, 'Well, there are way more Cruzes than 911s.' Um, yeah.
 
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Just remember that fast charging is bad for battery life. It probably should be optional for people who really need it, while most people should just use the slower charging. I charge my phone overnight, and that's all I need (for example).



And, then there is the privacy aspect. The biggest problem with Android is that it's from Google. I really don't trust Google with much of anything anymore besides some search (though I use DuckDuckGo or StartPage most of the time), and Gmail (though I've been thinking about switching that, too).

Google just can't be trusted, and if you use their products, you're being subsidized by them selling you.

That's aside from security issues, update issues, worse UX, etc. It is really kind of the old Mac vs Windows debate, just IMO, at an even higher differentiation.



Market share isn't all that relevant beyond a certain point, aside from a marketing spec bragging point. Once you have enough market share to support a healthy developer eco-system, does it really matter after that?

That was the big talking point back in the Mac/Windows days as well. Windows has more market share. Who cares? It didn't help make Windows better, just more. Chevy or Ford probably sell far more of a particular model than BMW or Porsche too. Going up to a Porsche owner and saying, 'Well, there are way more Cruzes than 911s.' Um, yeah.

And Apple can’t be trusted for other things, like informing users of obvious flaws in their products and services and owning up to it without it having to be a class action lawsuit first. Like not secretly slowing down hardware or software. Like feeling confident that what Apple repairs is a valid repair and not just another ridiculously overpriced money grab by replacing multiple components because of a simple blown 5mm capacitor in a logic board.
 
And Apple can’t be trusted for other things, like informing users of obvious flaws in their products and services and owning up to it without it having to be a class action lawsuit first. Like not secretly slowing down hardware or software. Like feeling confident that what Apple repairs is a valid repair and not just another ridiculously overpriced money grab by replacing multiple components because of a simple blown 5mm capacitor in a logic board.

I think what you've described, though, is unfortunately most companies. They often won't 'own up' to issues until they are pushed to do so for some reason. That sucks, but it isn't unusual.

Slowing down hardware/software? Are you talking about that feature that keeps iPhones running more reliably once the battery gets too weak for stability? If so... go right ahead and slow my device down! I can't believe people can twist something like that into something bad.

The only thing Apple did wrong there, was that they should have given it to the marketing department to advertise as a crucial feature!

Yes, the repairability of Apple's products now kinda sucks. The problem is that there are tradeoffs for not going that direction in product design. Most of us Apple users like the smaller, sleeker designs, which aren't possible with more accessible separate boards, cards, or even traditional assembly techniques (screws, etc.). And, again, Apple isn't the only one.

That's not to say I don't have plenty of criticisms of Apple (if you were to read more of my posts). But, those are more in terms of trying to help them improve, as they are still far ahead of most of their competition (overall).
 
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