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Time Capsule was the only way that most Mac laptop users would run backups. Without Time Capsule (or its replacement), the majority of MacBook and MacBook Pro users will just fail to do backups.

Cool story bro. But I think it's just something you're making up. Somehow I kind of doubt that millions of MacBook owners were snapping up these Time Capsules, as you seem to think.

Unless Apple comes up with a plan for the Time Machine backup device or enable Time Machine backups into iCloud, Time Machine as a technology will die. I don't think Tim Cook is particularly concerned about it, as I doubt he knows what Time Machine is or what purpose Time Capsule served.

There's already a plan for doing Time Machine backup on a laptop: it's called plugging in a ***** hard drive. Literally the first thing that happens when you plug in a new external drive to your Mac is that it asks you if you want to use it to back up your computer.
 
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Still, it's days are probably numbered. Considering laptops outsell desktops, Apple probably reasons that everyone should use iCloud to perform backups.

Apple isn't actually offering iCloud backups as an option for Macs, so while they may reason that in the future, they can't today.
 
We have Macs, xServe and Mac mini that support the Time Machine Server service, so a portion of the disk array is a Time Machine destination. So this is not a simple NAS which rarely use Mac OS Extended volumes. You could call it a back-end as Time Machine on client Macs can backup via the Time Machine server software to it's final destination of a sparse disk bundle, unlike how a local Time Machine backup works to a series of folders available to the Finder. Needed of course for the backup of many clients. FYI, Time Machine interferes with the File Server portion, so we use Carbon Copy Cloner on another server to pull the backup of changed files from the primary server to this backup server.
 
Because it’s Apple. And $100 becomes $500 when it comes from Apple.

So this way Apple spends $50 on a combined cheap slow spinner and a small SSD and gets “fastish” performance and makes you pay dearly if you want a decent sized full SSD drive.

Honestly, we’ve had spanned volumes (what a fusion drive is) forever.

You're forgetting the part where the OS moves actively-used files to the SSD. Huge difference in performance and transparent to the user.

And there is a reason the industry avoided using them in consumer grade machines. Because it doubles your odds of data loss.

In a spanned volume, if any one of the drives in that spanned volume fails, you lose the data on all of the other drives that are part of that spanned volume.

The more drives you add to a spanned volume, the more you increase your chances of data loss.

It makes no sense in consumer class machines to introduce that risk.

LOL. There was a lot of hand-wringing and panic like this when Fusion Drives came out a few years ago, and then it quietly went away when this supposed rash of failures didn't materialize. I'm running two of them on separate machines (one I cobbled together myself years ago when the Fusion drive tech was built into the OS) and both are running daily and are much faster than plain old HDDs, thank you very much.

If you have a “fusion drive” I’d hope that you have a full time automated backup solution running. A fusion drive without a backup is like tempting fate.
Any computer should have some kind of backup running. That's just common sense. And given that we're talking about desktop Macs, there's zero excuse to not plug in a $100 USB drive and click "yes" when the machine asks you to use it for Time Machine.
 
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Apple isn't actually offering iCloud backups as an option for Macs, so while they may reason that in the future, they can't today.

While it may not be Apple's intent and it is not a comprehensive backup, many folks rely on iCloud disk to store their Documents and Desktop, where they store their important files, and their photos are also stored in iCloud Photo Library. Their contacts, calendars, passwords and bookmarks are stored in the iCloud account. Their email is stored on the Apple IMAP server or gmail server, so if their computer does get wiped, and they have no real backup of apps and downloads, they really do get back to where they need to be.
 
You are completely missing the point of a Fusion drive. It is not to add redundancy like a RAID setup. Data loss is no different whether it is on a Fusion drive vs all one drive (SSD/HDD). You need a backup either way. What it does is allow you to pair a small fast SSD with a large HDD and 90% of the time have fast access to what you need. I’m just glad Apple doesn’t lock it down to only stock drives. I could pair my 6TB Gdrive with my 512GB flash drive if I wanted to.

The point of why it’s done wasn’t lost on me. It’s in my post.

Why it’s done does not compensate for why it shouldn’t be done.

And yes, there is a time and place for it that makes it a valuable tool. As in a RAID configuration.

And yes, you should always have a backup. But obviously in consumer land, that’s not happening as much as it does in the enterprise RAID situation.

Now if Apple wanted to tie volume spanning (fusion drives) into a requirement that a live automated backup is running, then great.

Windows doesn’t allow (with the built-in tools) to make a spanned volume using your boot device. Unless that spanned volume is part of a hardware RAID that is operating independently of the operating system (which means that the operating system hasn’t created the spanned volume).

This is a very valuable safety measure.

If Fusion Drives were about performance and capacity, Apple would use faster spinning large capacity hard drives.

Fusion drives are about trying to get decent performance out of a slow device by essentially throwing some buffer in there.

The choices should be between a full SSD solution and the fastest HDD solutions.

Creating a weak link to get away with using the slowest spinners is an idea that just shouldn’t have left the conference room.

High performance spinners of great capacities are cheap. You don’t have to go ultra cheap to use slower spinners and throw a cache at them, bump the price, give it a fancy name, and use that as an excuse to avoid using higher performance drives.
 
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Federighi is not that naive, he knew his comment would be circulated.
You would think.. given the negative narrative out there, they would know better than to give responses like that.

To me, in a way, it reaffirms that they are kind of out of touch… or that things are kind of out of control .

“Very Soon”…… My Arss ( umm .. where did i hear that before )
 
While it may not be Apple's intent and it is not a comprehensive backup, many folks rely on iCloud disk to store their Documents and Desktop, where they store their important files, and their photos are also stored in iCloud Photo Library. Their contacts, calendars, passwords and bookmarks are stored in the iCloud account. Their email is stored on the Apple IMAP server or gmail server, so if their computer does get wiped, and they have no real backup of apps and downloads, they really do get back to where they need to be.

Sure, but as you say, that's not technically a backup solution. On iOS, there's a specific backup service in addition to the stuff you listed.
 
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The choices should be between a full SSD solution and the fastest HDD solutions.
Wow am I ever glad you weren't in charge when my iMac was designed. I'd be limping along on the small SSD I could have afforded or a large and slow HDD. You just made me appreciate Tim Cook's Apple, which is a pretty neat trick!
 
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You would think.. given the negative narrative out there, they would know better than to give responses like that.

To me, in a way, it reaffirms that they are kind of out of touch… or that things are kind of out of control .

“Very Soon”…… My Arss ( umm .. where did i hear that before )
Sorry, but Phil is engaged.
His drivers' driver is readying his second Bentley to drive both his bosses to a cocktail party
 
All I want to know is about APFS and RAID arrays... I use them a lot (and yeah, I do double, automated backups, but to spinning disks).

PLUS, nobody has ever seemed to answer my question... if I tried to install 10.3.x on a RAID array boot drive (supposedly, the installer won't convert to APFS if it isn't a singe SSD), will it get bricked? Early on, there were stories about this happening, but I have yet to get anyone to assure me I won't run into a disaster trying this (or that they HAD done this).
 
All I want to know is about APFS and RAID arrays... I use them a lot (and yeah, I do double, automated backups, but to spinning disks).

PLUS, nobody has ever seemed to answer my question... if I tried to install 10.3.x on a RAID array boot drive (supposedly, the installer won't convert to APFS if it isn't a singe SSD), will it get bricked? Early on, there were stories about this happening, but I have yet to get anyone to assure me I won't run into a disaster trying this (or that they HAD done this).

If it’s a software RAID I would avoid APFS like the plague.

If it’s a hardware RAID, then APFS will be as reliable as it would be on any other drive. Whether that’s comforting or not... personally I’m not comforted by APFS.

It has too many weaknesses in my workflow.

Now that’s not to say it doesn’t work as designed. It’s just designed to contradict and work against my workflow.
 
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I've been waiting for this since the file system was announced.

However, I've been in this game a long time, and "sharing news" to me could easily mean "we decided it can't be done, but here's a $50 coupon toward a new Mac for your trouble."

I seriously hope I'm wrong.
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For my fellow Fusion Drive users...you’re welcome! ;)

That was you? Seriously? You're Batman!
 
Yeah. I have the current (2017) 27" iMac in highest stock configuration. It is insane how slow it most of the time feels. It is shocking to me that even my old 2012 MBP was/felt faster (granted, it had SSD). I plan to add more RAM soon (replace the stock 2x4GB modules to 4x8GB) and really hope APFS will also help... (glad to see it's still coming... better late than never I guess).
I also have a 27 inch iMac purchased in Feb, 2018 (2017 model). It has a 2 TB fusion drive, in which the system and high I/O files are stored on the 128 GB SSD. I find it to be significantly faster in real time than my previous HDD iMac (2014 vintage). My wife, who is no techie, remarked that it seemed "downright snappy" compared to the older iMac. Perhaps by "stock" you mean that yours was only HDD configured? I can see how that would seem slower than your old MBP with SSD. I/O speed is a real bottleneck in perceived computer performance. I suppose this is getting off the original topic of APFS, and in that regard, I'm happy with HFS on my fusion setup.
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Do you do backups every second? Every minute?

Do you do backups every hour, always? Even on vacation? How about while presenting at a customer's?

Even ignoring the reality that most people don't do backups at all, even when a backup is properly set up, "you should've had a backup" is just callous.
Well, it remains a fact that setting up backups - especially for a desktop machine like the iMac, which stays mostly in one place - is so simple and relatively cheap that it makes no sense not to do so for a fairly expensive machine (iMac or Mac Pro), which generally gets used for high storage needs. You can purchase an external HDD of several TB for less than $200, connect it to your Mac via USB or Thunderbolt, and set up incremental backups to run throughout the day - yes, the incrementals run on power up and/or every 30 minutes, hourly, or however you wish to set them up. After initial setup, it all runs in the background without any need for user intervention UNLESS you have drive failure on your Mac, somehow hose your system into an unbootable state, etc. Then that external backup drive is a lifesaver for your years of accumulated data. Apple, in particular, has made Time Machine backup software straight forward and easy to setup and use. It makes no sense to pay thousands of dollars and invest hours of time with your computer, and then risk such a single point of failure as having no backups.
 
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"We intend to address this question very soon..."

I read this as they'll address the question, not fix the issue, meaning they will announce something, possibly that APFS will not be supported on Fusion drives at all. Or that there is some midway fix to make fusion drives partially compatible. Or that they have come up with a simplified process as part of an update that allows the user to choose to 'defuse' the fusion drive instead of through Terminal. Or perhaps a replacement program on an install for a larger SSD, as the SSD part of a factory Fusion Drive is quite small compared to some of the DIY Fusion Drives out thhere.

Anyone wanna bet a few dollars that is it not a simple 'Fusion Drives are now fully compatible with APFS...'
 
"We intend to address this question very soon..."

I read this as they'll address the question, not fix the issue, meaning they will announce something, possibly that APFS will not be supported on Fusion drives at all. Or that there is some midway fix to make fusion drives partially compatible. Or that they have come up with a simplified process as part of an update that allows the user to choose to 'defuse' the fusion drive instead of through Terminal. Or perhaps a replacement program on an install for a larger SSD, as the SSD part of a factory Fusion Drive is quite small compared to some of the DIY Fusion Drives out thhere.

Anyone wanna bet a few dollars that is it not a simple 'Fusion Drives are now fully compatible with APFS...'

If they do make APFS compatible with Fusion Drives, we can expect the next round of APFS problem threads.

Yes it works... but, there’s some hiccups. The forums are sprinkled with them. But, add the Fusion drive, and now we can watch the sprinkles multiply.

The smartest move would be to announce that APFS will not be extended to Fusion drives.

But, in the end, it will have to support spanned volumes. It just should not be used on spanned boot volumes. Microsoft implements this restriction on spanned boot volumes as well.
 
Cool story bro. But I think it's just something you're making up. Somehow I kind of doubt that millions of MacBook owners were snapping up these Time Capsules, as you seem to think.



There's already a plan for doing Time Machine backup on a laptop: it's called plugging in a ***** hard drive. Literally the first thing that happens when you plug in a new external drive to your Mac is that it asks you if you want to use it to back up your computer.
You plug a hard drive in a laptop? How often? Every time you open it?

I bet MacBook users who are not engineers or computer techs but who are more advanced than the clueless majority did exactly that - bought the Time Capsule. More technical ones may have chosen a NAS. Less technical ones don’t even understand what a backup is, so even if they own a Time Capsule, they use it as a router. But those ones are hopeless anyway.

I can judge this by my sister who is great at math and statistics and now runs an innovative medical company based in the treatment that she invented. However, the concept of backups is completely lost on her and she wouldn’t be able to configure Time Capsule or Time Machine to save her life. There are a lot of very smart professionals out here who are not computer wizards and use the Mac at only about 10% of its potential. The majority of both Mac and Windows users are like that. Most people do not do backups. But the absense of an Apple solution for wireless backups will reduce the number of people who perform regular backups even further with time.
 
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Don't think so.. Apple wants APFS to make use of the performance which you would only get with SSD/Fusion part on iMac's.

It's the reason why you can't convert Mac mini because they don't use SSD's (yet)

You can order a Mini with an SSD Drive. If I were buying a new one that's the only way I'd go
 
Seeing how WWDC and the macOS 10.14 announcement are right around the corner, as long as the new OS is compatible with the same machines as High Sierra I don't really mind if they skip APFS support for spinning/Fusion drives altogether in 10.13.x (if they do get to launch one or two point updates before 10.14, that is). If they only implement it in 10.14 and cut off support for my Late '09 iMac, I am gonna be PISSED.

By the way, I've been seriously considering upgrading my Early '11 MBP to an SSD RAID 0, and maybe even selling my iMac and buying a second-hand 2011 model so I can do the same upgrade and both reuse my 32GB of memory (ever since I've upgraded my machine to a 2.93 GHz Core i7, it became compatible with the same, faster 1333 MHz modules the 2011 models come with) and get the dual SATA III 6Gbps channels…

Supporting APFS and FileVault on such a setup would be even cooler than just supporting Fusion Drives; I guess having a boot partition on one SSD, a recovery partition on the other and a common RAID 0 made up of the larger partitions on both drives wouldn't be that different functionally from having a boot partition on an SSD, a recovery partition on a spinning drive and a CoreStorage logical volume spanning the remaining two partitions, so I see no technical reason why Apple wouldn't put in the effort to make it work. AFAIK, I believe it's already possible to get it to work, but you basically have to reformat the RAID and do a clean install of macOS with each point update, which defeats the whole purpose and any speed gains from that setup.

Yeah, I know RAID 0 setups are inherently more fragile (then again, so are Fusion Drives, and a RAID 0 made up of SSDs is probably more durable than the former, especially on a laptop), but I already have Time Machine-, CCC- and cloud-based backups, so… no biggie. And I know that a SATA III SSD RAID 0 will never be as fast as the first-party, native PCI-X RAID-like thing Apple has going on the iMac Pro, but it will still smoke both of my Fusion Drives and breathe three or four more years of life into my machines for a very decent price.
 
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