'Dash' App Removed From App Store for Alleged Review Manipulation

[Theo Belk]

The issue made its way to an executive which sounds like the ultimate appeal to me. I understand that some don't like the outcome.

It attracted the attention of an executive at least. The No Appeal policy is BS. Its just a way to shutting down any further discussion immediately so Apple can check the problem off their to-do list. The developer can helplessly shake his tiny little fist at Apple for all the good it will do him. Now that Schiller has said the last word, nobody below him will consider alternatives. The developer is screwed.

If somebody is manipulating the store they deserve the consequences. There were probably better ways to have dealt with this. Removing all reviews might have been an option. A truly good app could recover from that. Removing the app temporarily might be a good warning shot. But the circumstances are disputed and Apple went nuclear. That sort of thing makes people unhappy.

 

[AxoNeuron]

Are these not your words from your previous post: "But they give absolutely ZERO further information to developers beyond some vague claim. And there is no appeal process."

What information should they be providing to developers about someone elses case? And why do you assert there is NO appeal process? For all you or I or anyone know the decision WAS appealed and there is no FURTHER appeals. So yeah I did disagree with what you ACTUALLY said.

Dude, again, you completely misunderstand what I am saying. I am not saying Apple should write a press release every time they pull an app from the store and give everyone their social security number.

I am saying Apple should give the DEVELOPER more information. Because as of right now, beyond an incredibly vague email, they don't provide ANY details.

Buddy, we currently have a system where a competitor could easily have you app pulled from the app store and you would have zero recourse. Have you drunk SO much Apple koolaid that you think it's a wonderful idea?

Give me a break. Wow.

 

[macsrcool1234]

How can he? Apple won't disclose the details. Nor should they, it's a private matter.

Not anymore.

Besides if Apple, or anyone else, where to disclose how this developer was found out and sanctioned then it would reveal their checking practises and methods. That in itself allows further gaming of the system.

Oh, so we follow some invisible rules. Oh, ok.

Try applying your brain before you lash out at others.

The irony burns.

Well that settles it then. We'll let you get back to your sheep.

You've got some brown on your nose.

 

[smacrumon]

I assure you there is plenty of precedent already established in contract law between two private parties. Could something new and novel occur here? Possibly. Could the developer be wasting their time and money going after Apple without cause? Probably. Suggesting that they sue with so little information known and a lot of lack of knowledge about the law is rather rash, IMO. Lawsuits are certainly not cheap for one thing.
[doublepost=1475865193][/doublepost]

Apples decision is final and can't be appealed doesn't mean there wasn't an appeals process leading up to this point. You are assuming facts not in evidence because they agree with your opinion about the situation.
[doublepost=1475865616][/doublepost]


Saying that unless a person is an expert in the field or meets certain arbitrary criteria that you set that they can't voice an opinion is illogical. You can certainly take in to consideration a persons background when evaluating their views on a topic, but not being a developer doesn't mean their arguments are invalid any more than being a developer means all your arguments are. The facts and logic behind the argument matters, and absolutely you can leverage your experience and expertise to present your argument but that doesn't automatically validate your opinion as correct.

Further, asserting that people should just "trust you"? Why should they trust you? Do they know you? Do you have a reptuation they can rely on? Do you simply trust someone because they tell you to? I know I don't.

And whether or not Dash needed fake reviews doesn't mean they didn't use them any more than people speculating that that could be the reason means they did.

Plenty of times people commit bad acts without a compelling need. There are wealthy people who steal for example. Perceived need can certainly be used as a reason by people to commit bad acts, but its not a requirement.

Seeing that the company in question is adamant they didn't act in ways that contravened the agreement they should persue legal action. Funding an action is not the point, and should not be any concern, there are many ways to fund it or have someone else fund it for them. And if they were successful Apple could pick up the bill. Take this to court.

 

[fuchsdh]

"Apple’s decision is final and can’t be appealed."

That is the particularly BS part of all this. Third Reich much?

But Apple cancels orders for no reason, so why not developer accounts.

It's a platform Apple owns, not a democracy. Jumping to hilariously terrible Nazi Germany comparisons in the first post? Godwin's Law works fast these days.

The fact that Schiller's commented on this makes it pretty clear they're damn sure they know what they know; he's basically likely already gotten an "appeal" because the attention probably made the decision get escalated up Schiller's way.

The comments from Twitter developers that "he'd never do this" are a bit asinine. Few people ever say of their friend or colleague when accused of a crime: "oh actually that's totally something he would do."

 

[Krizoitz]

First, I'm not assuming anything. I'm just saying that the only information we have is the one coming from the developer and pointing out it would be ridiculous for him to post a lie or half truth in such a public way.

Second, you are the one assuming Apple did the right thing. But unless you have more information you are in the dark as much as anyone here.

You are right on one thing, the only information we have is coming from the developer, which means we don't have the whole story, which is why I am critical of people who are jumping to conclusions based on that.

People lie all the time, privately and publicly. A developer who was caught doing something wrong could absolutely publicly post lies, especially if they had reason to believe Apple wouldn't or couldn't publicly respond. That does not mean the developer is lying, but we don't know a lot at this point and while people who know the developer and trust him could have reason to assume he is being honest, if you don't know him like most people posting here then assuming he is honest just because he says he is is not very wise.

And no, I am not assuming Apple did the right thing, I am simply not taking a limited amount of information and assuming it means what other people speculate it means. I am also pointing out the numerous logical errors people are making by asserting things that they do not know.
[doublepost=1475939877][/doublepost]

Dude, again, you completely misunderstand what I am saying. I am not saying Apple should write a press release every time they pull an app from the store and give everyone their social security number.

I am saying Apple should give the DEVELOPER more information. Because as of right now, beyond an incredibly vague email, they don't provide ANY details.

Buddy, we currently have a system where a competitor could easily have you app pulled from the app store and you would have zero recourse. Have you drunk SO much Apple koolaid that you think it's a wonderful idea?

Give me a break. Wow.

That may be what you meant, but its certainly not what you said.
You also don't know what information Apple did or did not provide to the developer (or other developers in similar situations). If the developer did something wrong and wanted to make Apple look bad, do you think they might MAYBE hide information? You are relying on a single point of information to paint your whole picture, a point of information that is inherently going to have a bias. Perhaps the Dash developer is being 100% honest. But you don't know that, unless possibly you know them personally, so asserting that they don't provide ANY details is mere speculation on your part.

You are also assuming that the scenario posited by some people in a forum, a scenario involving sabotage by a third party, is not only plausible but is certain. Is it possible thats what happened? Perhaps. Its also quite possible that that didn't happen and that Apple has ways of detecting such scenarios. Again you assert as truth something that is based on rampant speculation and crumbs of information.

Perhaps you should rethink your approach and tone, accusing someone who doesn't simply buy in to your wild theories of "drinking the koolaid" is laughable. Implying that I think something I've never even commented on once in this thread (until now) the whole sabotage theory is a "wonderful idea" is ridiculous.

Give ME a break. Wow.

 

[AxoNeuron]

You are right on one thing, the only information we have is coming from the developer, which means we don't have the whole story, which is why I am critical of people who are jumping to conclusions based on that.

People lie all the time, privately and publicly. A developer who was caught doing something wrong could absolutely publicly post lies, especially if they had reason to believe Apple wouldn't or couldn't publicly respond. That does not mean the developer is lying, but we don't know a lot at this point and while people who know the developer and trust him could have reason to assume he is being honest, if you don't know him like most people posting here then assuming he is honest just because he says he is is not very wise.

And no, I am not assuming Apple did the right thing, I am simply not taking a limited amount of information and assuming it means what other people speculate it means. I am also pointing out the numerous logical errors people are making by asserting things that they do not know.
[doublepost=1475939877][/doublepost]

That may be what you meant, but its certainly not what you said.
You also don't know what information Apple did or did not provide to the developer (or other developers in similar situations). If the developer did something wrong and wanted to make Apple look bad, do you think they might MAYBE hide information? You are relying on a single point of information to paint your whole picture, a point of information that is inherently going to have a bias. Perhaps the Dash developer is being 100% honest. But you don't know that, unless possibly you know them personally, so asserting that they don't provide ANY details is mere speculation on your part.

You are also assuming that the scenario posited by some people in a forum, a scenario involving sabotage by a third party, is not only plausible but is certain. Is it possible thats what happened? Perhaps. Its also quite possible that that didn't happen and that Apple has ways of detecting such scenarios. Again you assert as truth something that is based on rampant speculation and crumbs of information.

Perhaps you should rethink your approach and tone, accusing someone who doesn't simply buy in to your wild theories of "drinking the koolaid" is laughable. Implying that I think something I've never even commented on once in this thread (until now) the whole sabotage theory is a "wonderful idea" is ridiculous.

Give ME a break. Wow.

Wow, you just keep going don't you? Jesus, you AGAIN read something in to my post that I never actually said.

I never said it was 'certain' that this was the work of a competitor. And no. How on earth do you think Apple would ever be able to tell the difference? You really do think Apple is omnipotent don't you?

I'm literally only saying that in cases where Apple pulls an app, they should provide more information than "sorry".

 

[shartypants]

Apple is wrong not to provide concrete evidence that the developer did in fact manipulate reviews. I'm sure big developers do it all the time, but since they are making Apple so much money they look the other way. If I were the developer I would sue.

 

[ardchoille50]

Do we have unaltered copies of everything that was received by both parties? Everything? If not, then we don't have all of the information. Basing an assumption/decision on anything less than ALL of the relevant information is unwise and dangerous. Let's wait to pass judgement until we have all of the information, anything else is nothing more than a waste everyone's time.

 

[FoxMcCloud]

I use dash often and love it, not to mention that I paid for the app. If I lose my ability to receive updates for an application I paid for because Apple just thinks there was manipulation of reviews without knowing for a fact then I am going to be pretty pissed off.

EDIT: It has been removed completely from my purchased apps. This is BS.

You can transfer your licence through their website. Get future versions direct.

 

[coolaesthetic]

So... just fishing for some concrete details for context. Does anybody know how much $ it costs to buy fake reviews? As others have said, if it's cheap enough, this seems like an easy way to destroy your competition if it gets flagged by Apple.

Also just for debate, I wonder how Apple would evaluate its own "no appeals" policy if it were a larger entity that got flagged and removed (Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, etc.).

 

[zorrobyte]

I've been on Chat and currently awaiting a callback to speak with CSR about a refund/iTunes Credit. It's absurd that they keep spamming me with "Restore from a backup!1" snippets when Transfer Purchases was removed from iTunes in iOS 9 due to App Slimming.

 

[tf_dc]

Seeing that the company in question is adamant they didn't act in ways that contravened the agreement they should persue legal action. Funding an action is not the point, and should not be any concern, there are many ways to fund it or have someone else fund it for them. And if they were successful Apple could pick up the bill. Take this to court.

"I got my degree in Computer Science and Software Engineering in 2012 and since then I’ve been an indie developer. My home country is Romania and that’s where I spend most of my time, but I like to travel a lot."
From the developer's in question blog.

Does an individual from a not very rich or influential country have more chances winning the case against a big US company in the US court and having at least his expenses covered, than a US citizen has for something of the kind in the DPRK? And good luck with getting anything useful besides moral satisfaction out of suing Apple in Romania.

 

[zorrobyte]

Well, that was a complete waste of time.

Chat and Phone T1 and T2 Advisors all said there is nothing they can do and kept suggesting I restore a backup. Too bad "Transfer Purchases" was removed in iOS 9 with App Slimming - meaning that there is no way to backup/extract an ipk file from iOS using native tools. They also couldn't offer any sort of iTunes Store credit or refund.

Long story short, if Apple decides to remove an App from their platform, it's gone - period and they don't give a sh*t how much you paid for it.

 

[Mascots]

You also don't know what information Apple did or did not provide to the developer (or other developers in similar situations). If the developer did something wrong and wanted to make Apple look bad, do you think they might MAYBE hide information? You are relying on a single point of information to paint your whole picture, a point of information that is inherently going to have a bias. Perhaps the Dash developer is being 100% honest. But you don't know that, unless possibly you know them personally, so asserting that they don't provide ANY details is mere speculation on your part.

The person in question has a lot higher of a reputation than you are giving them credit for. The bias isn't anti-Apple, it's because he has worked many years to gain such a reputation from his peers... Phil saying "I've looked into it and it's he's been cheating the system but I'm not going to show how" isn't any better than our Developer saying, "Apple says I've been cheating the system and this vague response is all I received from Apple. I didn't cheat the system."
Nothing short of disrespectful to the people who put in the hard work for your enjoyment by not listening to their qualms - and especially when it's in such numbers. But hey, they're just hating on Apple right?
Don't get me wrong, he could be lying, but Apple can and owes it to Developers show otherwise given the circumstance.

Many of our businesses exist within this system and this system has repeatedly shown to be broken in ways that can unintentionally cripple businesses. And there's the environment for Indie developers, the people who brought things like Pull-to-refresh, becoming disrupted. Both are affected by this action and silence. Developers also know (I'm sure Axo, too) what Apple provides when they pull applications from the store and it isn't an uncommon occurrence for Apple to set up a vague and unexplained stipulation, and in the end completely cripple someone's distribution.

 

[sibcc]

Speaking as someone who used to have to deal with customers like you...please...just stop. If you disagree with Apple's behavior, then write them a letter. But don't go down to an Apple Store and waste some poor retail employee's time with your ridiculous first-world problem. It's not like the retail employee personally loaded iOS 10 on to your device just to screw with you.

And here I thought Apple retail stores were filled full of "Geniuses" that represented Apple, Whether you agree or nor, Apple markets their retail stores for problem solving and as such they represent Apple. Apple's cavalier attitude towards their customers is grating and hopefully they'll once again be taught a lesson. Obviously, given their war chest and their current profit margins it may take some time.
[doublepost=1476077176][/doublepost]

Absolutely have read the developer agreement. Test the terms of the developer agreement. See if it stands up to scrutiny. Apple and the developer have a commercial arrangement. Take it to court and get the real reason and set precedent.

Do you have any idea what it costs to take a large company to court and the time horizon even if you won? It's not like Dash is a wildly popular app that generates siginifcant revenue.

I'll never purchase an app from the AppStore if it's available elsewhere because I refuse to give that much control over to Apple. For some reason, people forget that Apple's purpose, just like the much maligned Exxon-Mobil or Walmart, is to make money for their stockholders.

 

[satcomer]

You can transfer your licence through their website. Get future versions direct.

If that's true then that's where they came into trouble!

 

[rufwork]

You are right on one thing, the only information we have is coming from the developer, which means we don't have the whole story, which is why I am critical of people who are jumping to conclusions based on that.

This. Apple says the problem happened repeatedly. Either the problem happened repeatedly, Apple stayed mum until now, and Kapeli got nuked in the first correspondence, OR, likely more likely, the developer got contacted about *something* earlier and isn't sharing that with us.

Not saying that means Kapeli has done something untoward, but I've got to bet they know a little more than they've shared.

 

[Wildkraut]

Regarding my earlier post, that i somehow belive Kapeli.
I must say, that i expected more public resistance and infos from Kapeli, but somehow he remains too quiet for a innocent app store/dev account kick.

 

[GFF]

"Apple’s decision is final and can’t be appealed."

That is the particularly BS part of all this. Third Reich much?

But Apple cancels orders for no reason, so why not developer accounts.

Ha yep, just like the Nazis. Except that more info is coming out indicating that Apple forewarned the developer as far back as two years ago re: false reviews (positive for his app, and negative for competitors).

 

[C DM]

https://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/10/apple-dash-developer-fraudulent-reviews/

 

[ray1302]

deleted