'Dash' App Removed From App Store for Alleged Review Manipulation

[rendyr]

I love how some people just read the article probably one time, doesn't think about it twice, and just comment Apple is destroying developers community. I highly suggest you all read multiple times, think for a while, and do some critical thinking based on the fact (on both side point of view) before commenting on something.

I don't side with either Apple or that developer, I certainly need more information on the Apple and the developer side before saying it was all Apple fault. There is huge lack of information from both of the party.

Therefore, I decided to not comment at this problem, only want to comment to remind others to think first before commenting.

 

[bitslap47]

I love how some people just read the article probably one time, doesn't think about it twice, and just comment Apple is destroying developers community. I highly suggest you all read multiple times, think for a while, and do some critical thinking based on the fact (on both side point of view) before commenting on something.

I don't side with either Apple or that developer, I certainly need more information on the Apple and the developer side before saying it was all Apple fault. There is huge lack of information from both of the party.

Therefore, I decided to not comment at this problem, only want to comment to remind others to think first before commenting.

Just because someone didn't come to *your* conclusion doesn't mean they didn't think something through or that they have a lack of comprehension. That's a pretty self centered point of view you have there.

 

[jujufreeze]

Let's give a respected dev the benefit of the doubt and assume Kapeli is telling the truth. Apple detects something awry and bans him. No prior notice, no explanation, no warning. Kapeli knows he did nothing wrong, but catastrophic misunderstandings can happen from time to time. Unfortunately there is no appeal process. Your livelihood vanishes, reputation is permanently tarnished and Apple has Schiller put a non-explanation in that your app/dev page is terminated. Should there not be an objective arbitration process in place that coordinates with the accused Dev and issues warnings/weighs all evidence, all circumstances/possibilities before the hammer comes down and destroys you?

 

[mi7chy]

Perhaps Apple use Siri to flag violators but we all know how unreliable she is.

 

[Theo Belk]

I love how some people just read the article probably one time, doesn't think about it twice, and just comment Apple is destroying developers community. I highly suggest you all read multiple times, think for a while, and do some critical thinking based on the fact (on both side point of view) before commenting on something.

I don't side with either Apple or that developer, I certainly need more information on the Apple and the developer side before saying it was all Apple fault. There is huge lack of information from both of the party.

Therefore, I decided to not comment at this problem, only want to comment to remind others to think first before commenting.

But you did comment saying you will not comment. Thanks for wasting everybody's time.

The problem here is Apple's autocratic removal of an app with no recourse for the developer. Apple will never show any evidence so how can the developer respond with anything other than "its not true." The developer can't prove a negative. Apple has responsibility to show why they did this.

I'd be very surprised if Schiller's verification was anything more than a cursory glance and asking his assistant to reply before heading out for 18 holes.

This is why everyone should be wary of linking their livelihood to Apple in any way. When they're done using you, they will cut you off at the knees and never respond again.

 

[manu chao]

What bothers me about this is Apple's stance as judge, jury and executioner.

That happens in transactions between two private parties. Unless one of them is breaking the law, there is no separate judge, jury or executioner. If you run restaurant and stop buying from a given supplier, there is no separate judge, jury and executioner.

Even if the developer is guilty is a permanent ban the appropriate sentence? It's hard to know because it's a secret court and the evidence is never tabled. What if it was only one or two reviews that didn't effectively game the system?

It's called a free market economy. Economic actors don't have to justify their commercial decisions. If you stop going to a particular restaurant, you are not forced to present any evidence as to why you stopped going there. However, if you act in such a way whenever there is the slightest problem in a restaurant, you are going to run out of restaurants sooner or later. That is the corrective mechanism, if Apple boots off too many developers, it's platform becomes less attractive.

I'm torn because I believe Apple has detected something suspicious but without seeing the evidence I believe the developer is entitled to the benefit of the doubt regarding the seriousness of the crime.

Are restaurants entitled to see evidence for any problems that customers perceive as such? Would Apple be entitled to see some hard evidence from you when you switch to Android?

 

[DCINKC]

Let's give a respected dev the benefit of the doubt and assume Kapeli is telling the truth. Apple detects something awry and bans him. No prior notice, no explanation, no warning. Kapeli knows he did nothing wrong, but catastrophic misunderstandings can happen from time to time. Unfortunately there is no appeal process. Your livelihood vanishes, reputation is permanently tarnished and Apple has Schiller put a non-explanation in that your app/dev page is terminated. Should there not be an objective arbitration process in place that weighs all evidence, all circumstances/possibilities before the hammer comes down and destroys you?

Let's give everyone the benefit of the doubt. No one here other than the dev and Apple know all of the details and we're only hearing the dev's side of the story. Apple isn't going to comment on a Mac "Rumors" board. This decision was escalated to an executive at Apple who backed it up. If someone has "evidence", not conjecture, that Apple or the dev mis-behaved then by all means, share it.

 

[jujufreeze]

Let's give everyone the benefit of the doubt. No one here other than the dev and Apple know all of the details and we're only hearing the dev's side of the story. Apple isn't going to comment on a Mac "Rumors" board. This decision was escalated to an executive at Apple who backed it up. If someone has "evidence", not conjecture, that Apple or the dev mis-behaved then by all means, share it.

Kapeli could be guilty. My point is that Apple needs a more transparent arbitration process including warnings and disclosure of evidence because false positives can and do happen.

 

[manu chao]

I'd be very surprised if Schiller's verification was anything more than a cursory glance and asking his assistant to reply before heading out for 18 holes.

You are accusing Apple of a knee-jerk reaction of assuming bad faith by the developer. But the same time you are assuming the same bad faith in regard to Apple executives ("before heading out for 18 holes"). Are you sure you are not just projecting your personal MO (lash out with completely made-up charges "before heading out for 18 holes") onto others?

 

[Theo Belk]

Let's give everyone the benefit of the doubt. No one here other than the dev and Apple know all of the details and we're only hearing the dev's side of the story. Apple isn't going to comment on a Mac "Rumors" board. This decision was escalated to an executive at Apple who backed it up. If someone has "evidence", not conjecture, that Apple or the dev mis-behaved then by all means, share it.

Apple will never produce any "evidence" to share. Apple is done with the guy and Schiller is probably off for long weekend. That's how they deal with problems.

You are accusing Apple of a knee-jerk reaction of assuming bad faith by the developer. But the same time you are assuming the same bad faith in regard to Apple executives ("before heading out for 18 holes"). Are you sure you are not just projecting your personal MO (lash out with completely made-up charges "before heading out for 18 holes") onto others?

It's not hard to assume if you've ever had any business dealings with Apple. But by all means, put all of your trust in them. Hope that works out for you.

 

[jennyp]

Has it been deleted from your Mac?

If the MAS app is still installed you can migrate to a download license from the developer's website

 

[jujufreeze]

You are accusing Apple of a knee-jerk reaction of assuming bad faith by the developer. But the same time you are assuming the same bad faith in regard to Apple executives ("before heading out for 18 holes"). Are you sure you are not just projecting your personal MO (lash out with completely made-up charges "before heading out for 18 holes") onto others?

Let's say you're a practicing doctor at a major hospital. The hospital administrator suddenly informs you "We have privately received word you wrongfully revealed confidential patient information. Your employment is immediately terminated. We are also stripping you of your medical license and you are no longer allowed to be a doctor in this state. No evidence will be presented and the decision is final." You may or may not be guilty. At the very least are you not owed a hearing where the disclosure of specific evidence against you is presented and more suitably an appeal process is available?

 

[Essenar]

Let's be clear about something, if you're just some regular Joe Schmoe who doesn't write code for a living and you're coming in here trying to pretend Dash developer might have something to hide, let me save you some trouble:
You don't know anything about any of this stuff, so please stop talking about products or applications in my cherished industry/field.
Dash didn't need fake reviews. Trust me.
It was one of the best API documentation tools ever made. It was fast, lightweight, comprehensive, quickly updated and very very useful.
It allowed you to cross reference API endpoints from your device while you're away from home so you can quickly deduce why a response isn't working without having to log into your computer and pull down a repository or check a desktop browser and spend minutes searching for it.
If Apple releases their own API documentation 'app' on iOS devices, that's another very serious blow to my trust in Apple.
I won't use another application for API documentation unless Dash's developers are behind it.

 

[DCINKC]

Kapeli could be guilty. My point is that Apple needs a more transparent arbitration process including warnings and disclosure of evidence because false positives can and do happen.

I'm assuming that transparency regarding an app that is submitted, approved and later rejected by Apple applies to the dev that created the app and no one else. Apple may have been totally transparent with the dev. I don't expect Apple to publicize details of communications with the dev as there is a private, contractual arrangement between the two parties. What we do know is that he did not like the end result and he claims he was mistreated and he may be right but, again, we don't know.

 

[bitslap47]

...Apple is done with the guy and Schiller is probably off for long weekend. That's how they deal with problems.

I assure you it is not.

 

[Theo Belk]

I assure you it is not.

I assure you it is. Generic form letter from a no reply address, no appeal, no response, they will never discuss it again.

 

[jujufreeze]

I'm assuming that transparency regarding an app that is submitted, approved and later rejected by Apple applies to the dev that created the app and no one else. Apple may have been totally transparent with the dev. I don't expect Apple to publicize details of communications with the dev as there is a private, contractual arrangement between the two parties. What we do know is that he did not like the end result and he claims he was mistreated and he may be right but, again, we don't know.

That's the problem-we don't know. Apple should reveal whether or not a universal, transparent arbitration process exists in their terms of agreement to encourage new Devs so they know some random misunderstanding won't potentially destroy their livelihood with no due process.

 

[truthertech]

Because Apple is well known for doing this kind of thing? And the developers of Dash are well respected?

But it came from our God Apple, so it must be true. What's that? Apple does no wrong? Oh, ok.

Bahhhh...I hear the sheep.

Well that settles it then. We'll let you get back to your sheep.

 

[gnipgnop]

Dash didn't need fake reviews. Trust me.

"Need" isn't necessarily required. It could also just be "opportunity". There are plenty of examples of that in the business world. It isn't just the poor or unskilled that break the rules or commit various forms of fraud.

 

[Gypsy36]

But, due process is only owed to a person when they are in conflict with the state. Rightly or wrongly, a private corporation isn't held to that requirement. It becomes a contractual arrangement and a totally difference consideration.

 

[jujufreeze]

But, due process is only owed to a person when they are in conflict with the state. Rightly or wrongly, a private corporation isn't held to that requirement. It becomes a contractual arrangement and a totally difference consideration.

In this case a respectable Devs reputation has been ruined with no evidence presented, no appeals process, no warnings. He may or may not be guilty but Apple offers no recourse or safeguards against false positives in their terms of agreement. If I was a budding developer I'd think twice about contributing Apple's app store if this is the level of respect I'd be given and this is the way I would be treated. Google's terms of agreement may be just as bad but it would make the most sense to be as open as possible with Developers.

 

[AxoNeuron]

So you are suggesting that Apple publicly disclose the details when they pull an app? Even if those details are protected by contract agreement? Even if those details review information that would put Apple at risk for further fraud? Even if those details would put either Apple and/or the developer at risk for possible legal action? I understand why other developers will be concerned when an app is removed and they don't know why, but that does not entitle them to access that information.

We also don't know that there was no recourse. We know the following:
1. The app was pulled
2. No further appeals will be allowed

You'll note that we have NO IDEA if any appeals occurred. Presumably the developer contacted Apple after the App was pulled. Presumably there was an investigation in to the details since Phil Schiller got involved.

Is it possible the scenario played out exactly as you imagine/suspect? Yes. Its also possible that it played out in a completely different fashion, the developer isn't giving all the details to protect their reputation and Apple isn't for legal reasons. We don't have most of the details, we can only speculate. Every is free to have an opinion, but not entitled to assert things as fact which are not.
[doublepost=1475844973][/doublepost]

Under what law do you presume that Apple is required to disclose the exact reasons? Under what grounds is the developer suing? Have you even bothered to read the developer agreement to see what developers agree to? Are you familiar with relevant case law in the U.S and/or California that might apply? I doubt it, I seriously doubt it.

Umm...I have no idea where you saw this invisible phrase "publicly disclose" in my post, but I can promise you, it's not there.

Please, if you're gonna disagree with me, at least disagree with what I've actually said. Not with what you think I said.

 

[DCINKC]

That's the problem-we don't know. Apple should reveal whether or not a universal, transparent arbitration process exists in their terms of agreement to encourage new Devs so they know some random misunderstanding won't potentially destroy their livelihood with no due process.

I'm curious about the process as well. I'm not a developer but I wonder if I can get a boilerplate copy of the agreement that is used between Apple and a developer. Maybe the process is spelled out in it.

 

[Gypsy36]

https://developer.apple.com/terms/

 

[manu chao]

Let's say you're a practicing doctor at a major hospital. The hospital administrator suddenly informs you "We have privately received word you wrongfully revealed confidential patient information. Your employment is immediately terminated. We are also stripping you of your medical license and you are no longer allowed to be a doctor in this state. No evidence will be presented and the decision is final." You may or may not be guilty. At the very least are you not owed a hearing where the disclosure of specific evidence against you is presented and more suitably an appeal process is available?

There are fairly detailed laws governing employer-employee relationships and what can be in an employment contract. Standard commercial contracts outside of areas with specific rules (such as employment contracts) are much less restricted. A developer employed by Apple has probably more rights than an independent developer selling software through the App Store. There is also no license involved in developing software, thus none can be revoked. You are still free to develop for all other platforms other than iOS.

Imagine you are a parts supplier for GM. Then GM cancels your contract and bans you company-wide. Should the law mandate that every supplier whose contract gets cancelled have a right to see the evidence that lead GM to make that decision?

What you are criticising without being able to fully articulating it is that Apple's position towards outside developers gives them undue power (like that of an employer over employees) and thus developers should be awarded special procedural and legal protections, in particular since the Apple App Store holds essentially a monopoly on software for iOS devices. Fine, but now please think of a law that would enshrine this that would not be a special 'Apple law' but one based on general principles. And then think how you would get that law through Congress.

Because right now, you are just saying that Apple should behave as if there were a law without even having thought it through what this law should be except that it should prohibit a situation like this.