'Dash' App Removed From App Store for Alleged Review Manipulation

[Flood123]

I use dash often and love it, not to mention that I paid for the app. If I lose my ability to receive updates for an application I paid for because Apple just thinks there was manipulation of reviews without knowing for a fact then I am going to be pretty pissed off.

EDIT: It has been removed completely from my purchased apps. This is BS.

 

[manu chao]

It's not hard to assume if you've ever had any business dealings with Apple. But by all means, put all of your trust in them. Hope that works out for you.

I listen to enough podcasts by iOS (and Mac) developers. I know a lot about their problems. But you cannot accuse somebody of spending part of their working day on a golf course without anything resembling even a shred of evidence while at the same time criticising them for making accusations without revealing their evidence. That is called hypocrisy, criticising others for something that you do yourself (making accusatory statements without revealing any evidence).

And you and I know very well that Apple has some evidence, even if they don't reveal it, while the person who made the golf course accusation has zero evidence. People criticising Apple's procedures might very well be right, but why has it become acceptable to completely make up accusations (the golf course thing) as long as it is for the 'greater good' of putting public pressure on Apple? There is a place for comedy but public discourse has become so accustomed to and blasé about made-up things that way too many people have started to actually believe them.

 

[johannnn]

What if person X doesn't like app Y by person Y.
Person Y buys fake reviews or whatever for app Y.
Apple notices something is weird with app Y and removes it from the app store as well as from the purchased list from all buyers.

I'm not saying this is was happened, but it almost sounds like this scenario is possible given this story.

 

[firewood]

Apple has responsibility to show why they did this.

Apple's legal responsibility ends with the standard developer agreement which the developer contractually agreed to beforehand.

This is why everyone should be wary of linking their livelihood to Apple in any way.

One should be wary of any choice of livelihood. What are the statistics about Apple cutting off developers? It's likely lower than the odds of getting killed in a car (bicycle, walking) accident commuting to most other jobs over the course of a year. Making Apple the safer choice.

 

[name99]

Seriously.. What sort of dystopian BS is Apple striving for here.

You are aware that fake reviews of various sorts are a MASSIVE problem on Amazon? It wasn't that bad say three years ago, and Amazon did nothing to deal with it early. Now every damn thing I want to buy, the reviews seem to be useless because 90% of them are clearly fake.

Apple may have made a mistake in this one case, but what they are doing is conceptually correct. And I expect that if this app was NOT manipulating the system (or being attacked by someone) the mistake will be rectified soon enough --- that's what has generally happened in the past.

 

[Theo Belk]

I listen to enough podcasts by iOS (and Mac) developers. I know a lot about their problems. But you cannot accuse somebody of spending part of their working day on a golf course without anything resembling even a shred of evidence while at the same time criticising them for making accusations without revealing their evidence. That is called hypocrisy, criticising others for something that you do yourself (making accusatory statements without revealing any evidence).

And you and I know very well that Apple has some evidence, even if they don't reveal it, while the person who made the golf course accusation has zero evidence. People criticising Apple's procedures might very well be right, but why has it become acceptable to completely make up accusations (the golf course thing) as long as it is for the 'greater good' of putting public pressure on Apple? There is a place for comedy but public discourse has become so accustomed to and blasé about made-up things that way too many people have started to actually believe them.

Hilarious. Of course he's out golfing, or flying to his weekend house in Tahoe, or whatever. Its Friday and therefore a virtual certainty if you've ever dealt with executives. I doubt Schiller would care if anyone knew because nobody who cares has a high enough rank to tell him off. Of course there are exceptions but probability is on my side. My assertion might be hypocrisy if I played golf but I don't. I work for a living. You seem awfully sensitive about golf. Do you work at a golf course or something?

Apple probably does have evidence. It might be correct, incorrect, generated by a faulty algorithm, or subject to interpretation. Neither we nor the Dash developer will ever know what really happened. The alleged reviews are gone. Apple will never revisit their decision or attempt to resolve the problem unless people raise Hell.
[doublepost=1475863821][/doublepost]

Apple's legal responsibility ends with the standard developer agreement which the developer contractually agreed to beforehand.

One should be wary of any choice of livelihood. What are the statistics about Apple cutting off developers? It's likely lower than the odds of getting killed in a car (bicycle, walking) accident commuting to most other jobs over the course of a year. Making Apple the safer choice.

Ok, I'll amend that statement. Apple has a responsibility to show why they did this if they wish to avoid the appearance of being an unresponsive monster that will wreck people's livelihoods on a whim.

 

[pier]

I would trust Apple on this. They know the damage this could cause to their reputation within developer community, so they wouldn't do it lightly.

I've been in the iOS developer program since 2010 (either by myself or in some team) and so far I haven't received any signs that Apple cares about its developer community. Quite the contrary.

The only semi-positive thing in my eyes that Apple has done was releasing Swift. But even today, over 2 years later, there are still many problems with the compiler. And I say semi-positive because (again) Apple had to create a new thing with the only purpose of positioning itself instead of just using a language that is already used by developers. If Apple had announced that you could program for iOS in Python, Go, C#, Java, Kotlin, TypeScript, or any other language, that would have been impressive.

As much as it bothers me to say this, Microsoft is much better at listening to the developer community than Apple has ever been. For example by creating open source cross platform developer tools like Visual Studio Code, by introducing the real Unix terminal in Windows 10, by buying Xamarin and making it free for anyone, or by making .NET Core open source.

 

[Krizoitz]

Umm...I have no idea where you saw this invisible phrase "publicly disclose" in my post, but I can promise you, it's not there.

Please, if you're gonna disagree with me, at least disagree with what I've actually said. Not with what you think I said.

Are these not your words from your previous post: "But they give absolutely ZERO further information to developers beyond some vague claim. And there is no appeal process."

What information should they be providing to developers about someone elses case? And why do you assert there is NO appeal process? For all you or I or anyone know the decision WAS appealed and there is no FURTHER appeals. So yeah I did disagree with what you ACTUALLY said.
[doublepost=1475864455][/doublepost]

Kapeli could be guilty. My point is that Apple needs a more transparent arbitration process including warnings and disclosure of evidence because false positives can and do happen.

Apple doesn't NEED a more transparent process, you simply believe they should have a more transparent process, and thats fine. But clearly they don't NEED one if its not important to them or its not an issue they see coming up often enough to merit one, or any other number of reasons why decisions like this aren't made and aired publicly.
[doublepost=1475864650][/doublepost]

The problem here is Apple's autocratic removal of an app with no recourse for the developer. Apple will never show any evidence so how can the developer respond with anything other than "its not true." The developer can't prove a negative. Apple has responsibility to show why they did this.

Why do you assume there is no recourse for the developer. We know from previous incidents that Apple can and does work with developers when there are issues with apps or the App Store process. Saying that THIS situation can't be appealed further doesn't mean there was no recourse in the first place. You also don't know what evidence Apple did or did not provide in this case to the developer. Not providing it publicly and not providing it at all are two different things, and the former doesn't mean the later. Apple doesn't have a responsibility to show why they did this to outside parties (though it may be a good PR decision for them to do so).
[doublepost=1475864835][/doublepost]

In this case a respectable Devs reputation has been ruined with no evidence presented, no appeals process, no warnings. He may or may not be guilty but Apple offers no recourse or safeguards against false positives in their terms of agreement. If I was a budding developer I'd think twice about contributing Apple's app store if this is the level of respect I'd be given and this is the way I would be treated. Google's terms of agreement may be just as bad but it would make the most sense to be as open as possible with Developers.

"In this case a respectable Devs reputation has been ruined" - Has it? Do you have evidence to support that? Certainly Apple did not trumpet blast this news, the Dev did.

"with no evidence presented" - To you and me perhaps, that does not mean the dev was not presented with evidence.

"no appeals process" - You don't know what happened between the Dev and Apple.

"no warnings" - You also don't know this. You are assuming it.

 

[michaelprescott]

I've very mixed feelings about this. It makes no sense to me that a successful app developer would do ANYTHING to jeopardize not only their source of income, but tarnish their personal reputation for the remainder of their professional career. This guy built an awesome app. I've seen no strong competitor to it.

Yet, I trust that Apple does take measures to protect users. It is why I have come to favor apps distributed through the app store. I don't have to constantly be on edge about installing tools and apps that I need. Apple hasn't just slapped him on the wrist and told him to stop. They have completely removed him from the App Store. It's not even listed in my past purchases any more.

Despite using the app every day, I'm wondering what other risk I have in keeping this tool installed.

Finally, let's assume that the guy is totally innocent. Apple doing this is destroying his livelihood, not just in this venue, but everywhere. This is not as light of a matter as some make it out to be.

 

[pier]

Why do you assume there is no recourse for the developer. We know from previous incidents that Apple can and does work with developers when there are issues with apps or the App Store process.

That may have been the case in past incidents, but the Dash developer stated quite clearly in his blog post:

"Apple's decision is final and can't be appealed."

He could be lying of course, but why would he? Why would he even create fake reviews when Dash is a super popular tool among developers?

 

[manu chao]

Hilarious. Of course he's out golfing, or flying to his weekend house in Tahoe, or whatever. Its Friday and therefore a virtual certainty if you've ever dealt with executives.

Because all executives are the same. Remember Jack Welch, his idea to blow off steam was to get pizza delivered to his office. Or look at Tim Cook's schedule, when he gets up, how long he works. He's a true workaholic. I don't know much about Schiller but neither do you. You just seem to have your stereotype and that is apparently all you need.

My assertion might be hypocrisy if I played golf but I don't. I work for a living. You seem awfully sensitive about golf. Do you work at a golf course or something?

Because if you play golf are not really working for a living? If you want to make an argument that high-level executives at big companies make insane amounts of money, I am with you. But that is sticking to facts, not making things up because one doesn't care about the truth as long as it is for the 'greater good'.

Apple will never revisit their decision or attempt to resolve the problem unless people raise Hell.

You can raise Hell and be civil or you can raise Hell and be an [expletive].

Apple has a responsibility to show why they did this if they wish to avoid the appearance of being an unresponsive monster that will wreck people's livelihoods on a whim.

Apple wrecks livelihoods on a daily basis. When your are that big, you are crushing others with every step you make. Apple has a responsibility to tread carefully but they don't have a responsibility to guarantee everybody who makes enough noise special privileges.

 

[Krizoitz]

Absolutely have read the developer agreement. Test the terms of the developer agreement. See if it stands up to scrutiny. Apple and the developer have a commercial arrangement. Take it to court and get the real reason and set precedent.

I assure you there is plenty of precedent already established in contract law between two private parties. Could something new and novel occur here? Possibly. Could the developer be wasting their time and money going after Apple without cause? Probably. Suggesting that they sue with so little information known and a lot of lack of knowledge about the law is rather rash, IMO. Lawsuits are certainly not cheap for one thing.
[doublepost=1475865193][/doublepost]

That may have been the case in past incidents, but the Dash developer stated quite clearly in his blog post:

"Apple's decision is final and can't be appealed."

He could be lying of course, but why would he? Why would he even create fake reviews when Dash is a super popular tool among developers?

Apples decision is final and can't be appealed doesn't mean there wasn't an appeals process leading up to this point. You are assuming facts not in evidence because they agree with your opinion about the situation.
[doublepost=1475865616][/doublepost]

Let's be clear about something, if you're just some regular Joe Schmoe who doesn't write code for a living and you're coming in here trying to pretend Dash developer might have something to hide, let me save you some trouble:
You don't know anything about any of this stuff, so please stop talking about products or applications in my cherished industry/field.
Dash didn't need fake reviews. Trust me.

Saying that unless a person is an expert in the field or meets certain arbitrary criteria that you set that they can't voice an opinion is illogical. You can certainly take in to consideration a persons background when evaluating their views on a topic, but not being a developer doesn't mean their arguments are invalid any more than being a developer means all your arguments are. The facts and logic behind the argument matters, and absolutely you can leverage your experience and expertise to present your argument but that doesn't automatically validate your opinion as correct.

Further, asserting that people should just "trust you"? Why should they trust you? Do they know you? Do you have a reptuation they can rely on? Do you simply trust someone because they tell you to? I know I don't.

And whether or not Dash needed fake reviews doesn't mean they didn't use them any more than people speculating that that could be the reason means they did.

Plenty of times people commit bad acts without a compelling need. There are wealthy people who steal for example. Perceived need can certainly be used as a reason by people to commit bad acts, but its not a requirement.

 

[pier]

Apples decision is final and can't be appealed doesn't mean there wasn't an appeals process leading up to this point. You are assuming facts not in evidence because they agree with your opinion about the situation.

First, I'm not assuming anything. I'm just saying that the only information we have is the one coming from the developer and pointing out it would be ridiculous for him to post a lie or half truth in such a public way.

Second, you are the one assuming Apple did the right thing. But unless you have more information you are in the dark as much as anyone here.

 

[truthertech]

Let's say you're a practicing doctor at a major hospital. The hospital administrator suddenly informs you "We have privately received word you wrongfully revealed confidential patient information. Your employment is immediately terminated. We are also stripping you of your medical license and you are no longer allowed to be a doctor in this state. No evidence will be presented and the decision is final." You may or may not be guilty. At the very least are you not owed a hearing where the disclosure of specific evidence against you is presented and more suitably an appeal process is available?

Your hypothetical is not at all analogous. A hospital administrator would not have the authority to strip you of your medical license, anymore than Apple can strip this developer of his ability to write software. They could only restrict your ability to work for them, similar to Apple's ability to restrict this developer from selling in the App store, not being a developer of software. The correct analogy would be the hospital administrator would have the ability to say we don't like your skills, your work ethic, we have had too many complaints from patients, whatever, and we don't want you to work here. That's what Apple did. But what you are arguing for is that the doctor or any other employee should have the right to some formal process that you call a hearing. That's not how it works for employees, unless they have a collective bargaining agreement. That's why Apple could tell Scott Forstall it's time to go. Maybe Apple Maps wasn't his fault! You may think that was unfair and demand that Apple give him a formal hearing.

Of course your logic fails even more significantly because in this case, the developer isn't even an employee. But let's examine what would happen if the world existed as you propose. There are over two million apps in the App store. Under your logic, every time Apple rejects an App, or cancels one, and a developer thinks Apple is being unfair, there should be some new right to a hearing where Apple would have to convene some sort of independent panel (I guess they could establish a special Cupertino civil court system). Think about what you are proposing. Spotify's latest app was rejected, they get a hearing. Apple is canceling tens of thousands of outdated apps, so do every one of those developers who cry foul deserve a formal hearing? Your fart app is rejected; Apple owes you a hearing?

The lack of critical thinking skills on these blogs is disturbing. Maybe someone would create an app to help folks develop their critical reasoning abilities

 

[Theo Belk]

Because all executives are the same. Remember Jack Welch, his idea to blow off steam was to get pizza delivered to his office. Or look at Tim Cook's schedule, when he gets up, how long he works. He's a true workaholic. I don't know much about Schiller but neither do you. You just seem to have your stereotype and that is apparently all you need.

Yeah, pretty much.

Because if you play golf are not really working for a living? If you want to make an argument that high-level executives at big companies make insane amounts of money, I am with you. But that is sticking to facts, not making things up because one doesn't care about the truth as long as it is for the 'greater good'.

If you're on the golf course, you are not working - unless you are a caddy maybe. What on earth is this 'greater good' that you keep talking about?

You can raise Hell and be civil or you can raise Hell and be an [expletive].

I think we're all pretty civil here.

Apple wrecks livelihoods on a daily basis. When your are that big, you are crushing others with every step you make. Apple has a responsibility to tread carefully but they don't have a responsibility to guarantee everybody who makes enough noise special privileges.

Apple can crush competitors like Samsung or Dell all they like. That's their job. It's not nice to crush your business partners. The criticism is legitimate and the only recourse the developer has is to enlist public support.

 

[username:]

As much as it bothers me to say this, Microsoft is much better at listening to the developer community than Apple has ever been. For example by creating open source cross platform developer tools like Visual Studio Code, by introducing the real Unix terminal in Windows 10, by buying Xamarin and making it free for anyone, or by making .NET Core open source.

Windows is better at this yes i agree

 

[manu chao]

If you're on the golf course, you are not working - unless you are a caddy maybe.

So anybody who is not working all his or her waking hours is 'not working for a living'? (I wonder, does this mean you making posts here is an indicator that you get paid for it or an indicator that you are not 'working for a living'?)

What on earth is this 'greater good' that you keep talking about?

Just read my post, I spelled it out: "[...] as long as it is for the 'greater good' of putting public pressure on Apple?"

 

[Gypsy36]

Oh for pete's sake, business deals get done on the golf course all the time. In fact, it's one of the key points of negotiation to get yourself into a comfortable, informal and pleasant situation with the person you are negotiating with. Throw in a little alcohol and all the better. Honestly. Some of the things that get said around here.

 

[Theo Belk]

So anybody who is not working all his or her waking hours is 'not working for a living'? (I wonder, does this mean you making posts here is an indicator that you get paid for it or an indicator that you are not 'working for a living'?)

Just what I said. If you're on the golf course, you are not working. Again, you seem very sensitive about golf. It may surprise you but people can actually post here and work for a living at the same time.

Just read my post, I spelled it out: "[...] as long as it is for the 'greater good' of putting public pressure on Apple?"

Sometimes it is good to put public pressure on Apple. Sometimes they screw up and this may be one of those times.

 

[DCINKC]

I use dash often and love it, not to mention that I paid for the app. If I lose my ability to receive updates for an application I paid for because Apple just thinks there was manipulation of reviews without knowing for a fact then I am going to be pretty pissed off.

EDIT: It has been removed completely from my purchased apps. This is BS.

Just curious. Have you contacted Apple customer service (as a first step) to voice your concerns? It seems to me that they should continue to supply the app and updates (if the dev produces them) to people that purchased it - even if it's no longer available for general distribution. If I had purchased an app from Apple or anyone else and found myself in your situation the company that sold it to me would absolutely become my new "hobby" with me phoning and sending e-mails to everyone in that company that I could identify every day until they provided me a satisfactory solution. Might not get you anywhere but I've had success with this method with other companies - large and small. I'd recommend the soft approach first (customer support) before going all-out. Just a thought. Wishing you luck.

 

[firewood]

I use dash often and love it, not to mention that I paid for the app. If I lose my ability to receive updates for an application I paid for because Apple just thinks there was manipulation of reviews without knowing for a fact then I am going to be pretty pissed off.

In the general case (not with respect to this particular developer), if I suspected a developer of *repeated* fraud, I would also be suspicious of the possibility of malware and other legal issues, and thus no longer want their code to be visible to the public from any of my servers. As a matter of policy. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Soni Sanjay]

So basically you just assume that Apple did this on a whim and had no legitimate reason. Yeah. Seems real likely.
[doublepost=1475847668][/doublepost]
Explain to me the depth of knowledge you have that demonstrates that Apple has not already done all of the due diligence that would have been done during an appeal, before even making this decision?

Phil Schiller mentions "repeated" infractions. Most Apple likely caught wind of this a while ago and began monitoring it, and then took action when no doubt remained.

But yeah, just assume the dev is innocent even though there is no reason to.

The can't appeal measure is BS. Deal with it, Apple fanboy.

 

[DCINKC]

The can't appeal measure is BS. Deal with it, Apple fanboy.

The issue made its way to an executive which sounds like the ultimate appeal to me. I understand that some don't like the outcome.

 

[imran5720]

Seriously when is new Macbook Pro coming ?

 

[TurboPGT!]

The issue made its way to an executive which sounds like the ultimate appeal to me. I understand that some don't like the outcome.

Right? This place has lost all compass. Captain obvious points go right over their heads.

"Appeal". What is this appeal for? A chance for the dev to scrub up and make it look like they didn't break the rules? A chance for Apple to review itself? Ha. That's a laugh. There is nothing to appeal. The dregs will continue to believe this was an decision made by computer, meanwhile, non other Phil Schiller looked into it personally and upheld the decision.

Like you said...sounds like the ultimate appeal already took place.