I love the concept of dashboard. It makes it a lot easier to access those smaller apps that I use every once and a while. Still, I think some of those widgets do not go with the whole apple theme at all. They seem bloated and overdone. And what's up with the iTunes widget? It almost reminds me of a skin you'd find on 'gasp' windows media player.
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Dashboard Exposed
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Arlo & Perry's expertise
Apple should have hired Arlo and Perry to take care of this. Give them access to the OS and they would have an awesome non-hoggy version of K in no time.
(Many of the lag issues I have are more due to my low grade video cards than anything else)
Three other things:
- Konfabulator just added Konspose to bring all widgets to the front like expose does with windows and the Dashboard does with widgets.
- Konfabulator already has a vast library of widgets
- Konfabulator widgets are always available if not covered over by a window.
No hitting F8 or F12 or anything else, my weather widget, and iCal based schedule widget are always at the botttom of the screen. The Dashboard won't be that way. I could very easily see myself using both Konfab widgets and Dashboard "stuff".
Personally, I love the retort on konfabulator.com
Apple should have hired Arlo and Perry to take care of this. Give them access to the OS and they would have an awesome non-hoggy version of K in no time.
(Many of the lag issues I have are more due to my low grade video cards than anything else)Three other things:
- Konfabulator just added Konspose to bring all widgets to the front like expose does with windows and the Dashboard does with widgets.
- Konfabulator already has a vast library of widgets
- Konfabulator widgets are always available if not covered over by a window.
No hitting F8 or F12 or anything else, my weather widget, and iCal based schedule widget are always at the botttom of the screen. The Dashboard won't be that way. I could very easily see myself using both Konfab widgets and Dashboard "stuff".
Personally, I love the retort on konfabulator.com
Looks like a "fun" feature: bright colors, extra animation (probably optional), and easy development of lots of weird little apps.
That's OK--it DOES look fun! And you don't have to use it if you don't want.
That said, I'd like to evolve more in a direction of pure usefulness and a more sedate (less Windows!) Apple style.
But there's plenty of time for all that to evolve.
The issue of copying Konfabulator is one I am watching--it doesn't sound good, but we'll see.
That's OK--it DOES look fun! And you don't have to use it if you don't want.
That said, I'd like to evolve more in a direction of pure usefulness and a more sedate (less Windows!) Apple style.
But there's plenty of time for all that to evolve.
The issue of copying Konfabulator is one I am watching--it doesn't sound good, but we'll see.
Hope Apple follows up
I hope Apple follows up with Dashboard and it doesn't end up like Sherlock. I liked Sherlock in it's early stages with all the 3rd party plug-ins but now it seems like a stagnate app with little 3rd party interest. I use the Konfabulator and would hate to see development stopped on it just to be replaced by Dashboard and have Apple lose interest down the road. Hopefully this is one step closer for Apple to providing a way to intergrate mail, address book, ical, ect. in one window.
I hope Apple follows up with Dashboard and it doesn't end up like Sherlock. I liked Sherlock in it's early stages with all the 3rd party plug-ins but now it seems like a stagnate app with little 3rd party interest. I use the Konfabulator and would hate to see development stopped on it just to be replaced by Dashboard and have Apple lose interest down the road. Hopefully this is one step closer for Apple to providing a way to intergrate mail, address book, ical, ect. in one window.
Up until now, most of the 'eye candy' has had a function:
The 'Genie' effect readily identifies to OSX rookies where windows go when minimized - there's no such thing as the user clicking minimize and wondering where their window went.
The Dock magnification allows more icons in the Dock, and yet have them scale large enough to be visually distinguished from each other.
Likewise, you can find some kind of visual feedback reasoning behind most of the 'candy' in OSX, but the ripple effect above looks to be pure useless gloss to me.
The 'Genie' effect readily identifies to OSX rookies where windows go when minimized - there's no such thing as the user clicking minimize and wondering where their window went.
The Dock magnification allows more icons in the Dock, and yet have them scale large enough to be visually distinguished from each other.
Likewise, you can find some kind of visual feedback reasoning behind most of the 'candy' in OSX, but the ripple effect above looks to be pure useless gloss to me.
Dashboard=microsoft bob, apple makes bad move...
Apple has made a wrong turn here. What were they thinking?
Look at Konfabulators homepage and it says "Cupertino, Start up your photocopiers!"
It looks the same as konfabulator ( we all know by now).
I actually use to use konfab back in 2000, it was cool with the weather check but the clock and everything else was obsesive.
Microsoft Bob is much like dashboard, haha. Apple is becoming a microsoft.
Very hipocritical, they talk about microsoft with longhorn copying os x, well if u think about it, thats the same thing apple is doing with dashboard. I hope apple gets sued or at least steve jobs gets his Head out of his (!) before my stock plumits. I must admit the displays are breath taking though. Apple is very COCKY, almost zepplin like!
owner of imac 15 in.( first addition flat screen) w/ superdrive, 2 powerbook 12", an old imac dv edition, 40 gb ipod and every accessory available!
Apple has made a wrong turn here. What were they thinking?
Look at Konfabulators homepage and it says "Cupertino, Start up your photocopiers!"
It looks the same as konfabulator ( we all know by now).
I actually use to use konfab back in 2000, it was cool with the weather check but the clock and everything else was obsesive.
Microsoft Bob is much like dashboard, haha. Apple is becoming a microsoft.
Very hipocritical, they talk about microsoft with longhorn copying os x, well if u think about it, thats the same thing apple is doing with dashboard. I hope apple gets sued or at least steve jobs gets his Head out of his (!) before my stock plumits. I must admit the displays are breath taking though. Apple is very COCKY, almost zepplin like!
owner of imac 15 in.( first addition flat screen) w/ superdrive, 2 powerbook 12", an old imac dv edition, 40 gb ipod and every accessory available!
mudflapper said:
Well, as I inderstand it, basically Watson copied Apple's Sherlock--right down to using an imitative name--only they offered a different set of channels from Sherlock. Very useful, although annoying to have to have an additional app.
Then Apple added more Sherlock channels for common 'net tasks, and some of them were ones Watson implemented first--there was an overlap, but Apple didn't take over all of Watson's functions.
Somehow that makes people think Apple copied Watson to make Sherlock--which is pretty funny if you think about it
And re Konspose: Konfabulator copied that from Apple! And now some people are saying Apple copied Konspose from them. That too is pretty funny
Nonetheless, I do support Arlo and Konfabulator for having done a great job, and I'm glad their market will remain large: they have most of a year before Tiger, and they have all the pre-Tiger X users, and they have their expansion to Windows, and they may well find a way to adapt what they've got into Dashboard compatibility in some way. I feel their pain, and Apple MAY be very wrong here, but it's not as cut-and-dried as that yet.
For the record, I tried Konfabulator and didn't like it, but I see lots of potential. I also don't like Dashboard much from what I see--but again I see lots of potential! I WOULD like to call up all those little things quickly, if only the looked the same as the full app verison. Less confusing, less playful--maybe less fun, I'll grant you. But those may be options left to the user, and that's good.
And these widgets will not REPLACE the usual Address Book etc.--that's not my understanding. You won't LOSE anything, in other words.
In it's current incarnation, Konfabulator is better than Dashboard.
1) K 1.7 has the bring all to the front (which was released before Tiger announcement but I'd reckon K had inside knowledge that function was coming which is why K 1.7 came out on Sunday). Tho, who wants to bring all their widgets to the fore anyway? You'd usually just want one - eg calculator or calendar or weather
2) With K, I my widgets are always visible if I want, so if i lay my screen out right, i can always see the calendar or cpu processes, say, or have access to my iTunes remote. If Dashboard doesn't include the option to have widgets always on-screen, then it will be inferior to K. Obviously 12" screens don't get this value from K - but they won't from Dashboard either.
3) K widgets can do almost anything because of #2 above. Dashboard will be limited by being off screen.
K is not a resource hog. Watching the CPU processes and KCPU, Safari is using more resources than K - and I've got 9 widgets running! But a couple of widgets do suck juice, so I don't run those. Run the KCPU widget to see. I've never had any resource issues with K, besides those two poorly written widgets.
I expect that Apple will make Arlo & Perry an offer. But why would they do it beforehand? By announcing Dashboard, they've just cut considerably the worth of Arlo & Perry to them, so they don't have to offer them anywhere near as much to bring them onboard. Very cynical, I know, but also very obvious.
1) K 1.7 has the bring all to the front (which was released before Tiger announcement but I'd reckon K had inside knowledge that function was coming which is why K 1.7 came out on Sunday). Tho, who wants to bring all their widgets to the fore anyway? You'd usually just want one - eg calculator or calendar or weather
2) With K, I my widgets are always visible if I want, so if i lay my screen out right, i can always see the calendar or cpu processes, say, or have access to my iTunes remote. If Dashboard doesn't include the option to have widgets always on-screen, then it will be inferior to K. Obviously 12" screens don't get this value from K - but they won't from Dashboard either.
3) K widgets can do almost anything because of #2 above. Dashboard will be limited by being off screen.
K is not a resource hog. Watching the CPU processes and KCPU, Safari is using more resources than K - and I've got 9 widgets running! But a couple of widgets do suck juice, so I don't run those. Run the KCPU widget to see. I've never had any resource issues with K, besides those two poorly written widgets.
I expect that Apple will make Arlo & Perry an offer. But why would they do it beforehand? By announcing Dashboard, they've just cut considerably the worth of Arlo & Perry to them, so they don't have to offer them anywhere near as much to bring them onboard. Very cynical, I know, but also very obvious.
An alternate view
I think it is quite clear that Dashboard and Konfabulator perform very similar functions. But it seems clear that most of the people posting here have had very little experience with Konfabulator prior to this whole controversy. So would it be too far fetched to assume that your typical Mac user, who enjoys their new iMac/G5 but is not fully aware of all the little $25 3rd party apps available, also has little to no knowledge of konfabulator?
And maybe, these typical Mac users found that they were sick of having to open up all these small applications like calculator etc all the time and have them take up space in the dock. So they thought, why can't Apple make it easier for me to access these functions? They're already built into the OS, but can you make it easier for me to use them?
So Apple thought "well, there seems to be a need for this, and we like to make great operating systems.....AND we already have all these little apps in the OS, so why not help out these customers and give them a solution".
Does that sound like such an offense?
I think it is quite clear that Dashboard and Konfabulator perform very similar functions. But it seems clear that most of the people posting here have had very little experience with Konfabulator prior to this whole controversy. So would it be too far fetched to assume that your typical Mac user, who enjoys their new iMac/G5 but is not fully aware of all the little $25 3rd party apps available, also has little to no knowledge of konfabulator?
And maybe, these typical Mac users found that they were sick of having to open up all these small applications like calculator etc all the time and have them take up space in the dock. So they thought, why can't Apple make it easier for me to access these functions? They're already built into the OS, but can you make it easier for me to use them?
So Apple thought "well, there seems to be a need for this, and we like to make great operating systems.....AND we already have all these little apps in the OS, so why not help out these customers and give them a solution".
Does that sound like such an offense?
Dashboard vs. Konfabulator
As many people have suggested, it is a bit dodgy that Apple chose to call the individual DA's widgets, and I'm not sure I would have been quite so ballsy, but it's not necessarily, as nagromme points out, as clear-cut as it first appears.
Arlo, Konfabulator's creator, was already hinting, far in advance (some people have mentioned that it was back in May) that Apple had integrated something very much like his product into Tiger. In a thread on his website, in response to the screen shots when they first came out, he said something to the extent of, "You'd be surprised how low Apple has sunk this time."
The only thing that bothers me about that is, he says it very matter-of-factly, denoting that he had prior knowledge of Dashboard. It seems to me a possibility that perhaps Apple HAD pursued the high road, perhaps making the creators an offer for their product as they had in the past for things like WindowShade and SoundJam, and this offer, probably incorporating an NDA, wasn't "enough" for the Konfabulator folks. Maybe, maybe not.
Konfabulator is not patented. In fact, as has also been pointed out, it borrows a concept of Apple's -- Exposé -- which changes things around a bit.
Apple isn't a charity, and it's not a non-profit. While I've always admired their business practices, and would have expected this to happen a little differently (Arlo mentions that Phil Schiller and Pixar are both registered users of Konfabulator), I guess I can't fault a business for doing something that A) they have legal right doing, and B) will make them money. Granted it's not the most ethical or inspiring action, but it was within their right, and speaks to the evolution of the operating system and of the concept of a GUI.
As many people have suggested, it is a bit dodgy that Apple chose to call the individual DA's widgets, and I'm not sure I would have been quite so ballsy, but it's not necessarily, as nagromme points out, as clear-cut as it first appears.
Arlo, Konfabulator's creator, was already hinting, far in advance (some people have mentioned that it was back in May) that Apple had integrated something very much like his product into Tiger. In a thread on his website, in response to the screen shots when they first came out, he said something to the extent of, "You'd be surprised how low Apple has sunk this time."
The only thing that bothers me about that is, he says it very matter-of-factly, denoting that he had prior knowledge of Dashboard. It seems to me a possibility that perhaps Apple HAD pursued the high road, perhaps making the creators an offer for their product as they had in the past for things like WindowShade and SoundJam, and this offer, probably incorporating an NDA, wasn't "enough" for the Konfabulator folks. Maybe, maybe not.
Konfabulator is not patented. In fact, as has also been pointed out, it borrows a concept of Apple's -- Exposé -- which changes things around a bit.
Apple isn't a charity, and it's not a non-profit. While I've always admired their business practices, and would have expected this to happen a little differently (Arlo mentions that Phil Schiller and Pixar are both registered users of Konfabulator), I guess I can't fault a business for doing something that A) they have legal right doing, and B) will make them money. Granted it's not the most ethical or inspiring action, but it was within their right, and speaks to the evolution of the operating system and of the concept of a GUI.
Seems like a functional and possibly useful addition to the GUI. However, I have serious concerns about integrating a Javascript API into the OS. I hope that Apple is able to address the possible security issues that arise because of Dashboard. Since anyone can create and distribute a Widget it could be easy for someone to hide a trojan inside a harmless looking Widget. While this is true of any application many users may not be aware of the potential danger since it can be presented as a fairly trustworthy extension of the OS.
chuckiej said:
Didn't Arlo work at apple before he made kaleidoscope?
Anyway, this is a similar situation as to Watson. Watson couldn't exist if apple hadn't made APIs that were 90% there and given a bunch of examples as to why you'd want to use those APIs.
It'd be like, if I put out some flour, and some baking soda, and some sugar, and a baking pan, and an oven, and then you came along and made a cake with it, and then tomorrow I made a cake too and maybe it even tasted better... did I "copy" you? Do I "owe" you something? Did I impinge on your ability to make more cakes (other than perhaps we'll run out of people to eat them).
Konfabulator can't sue Apple because the product is reliant on so many of Apple's ideas, it's probably 90% Apple's intellectual property. It could never have existed in a vacuum.
Granted it would have been classy to acknowledge Konfabulator. Who knows which has been around longer though. Who knows what Arlo saw at Apple (He's a registered developer, isn't he?) that led him to think up Konfabulator.
Its sort of like "Bittersweet Symphony" isn't it? If the Rolling Stones incorporated some of the Verve's sample of their music into a new single, could the Verve sue? Should the Rolling Stones make Richard Ashcroft their backup singer?
Speaking of starting photocopiers.....that flipping sticky is a COMPLETE rip off of a demo from sun microsystems about 8 months ago for their new version of java where you can flip any window and access prefs, store notes or pretty much anything you want to program in....so much for innovation.
You know...at first, I was kind of taken aback by what I thought was a pretty clear reappropriation of an existing technology (Konfab) by Apple. But you know what...now I'm not so sure.
I think, with all this free publicity that konfabulator's gotten, they should do several things:
1. ride it out (and attempt to get as many shareware registrations as possible)
2. grab a copy of the Tiger preview, and get _cracking_. I don't imagine it would take a terribly long time to craft some ground-breaking widgets that Apple certainly hasn't thought of (like several of the Watson modules that make it much nicer than Sherlock.) Then, they can put in place an online repository for Dashboard plugins. Maybe they could even host third party plugins, creating a system for delivery to users, and take a (small) cut of the profits.
I mean, come on - once upon a time Windows didn't include a TCP stack, so Trumpet made one. Would it have made sense for them to start complaining, once Windows got a TCP stack?
I think, with all this free publicity that konfabulator's gotten, they should do several things:
1. ride it out (and attempt to get as many shareware registrations as possible)
2. grab a copy of the Tiger preview, and get _cracking_. I don't imagine it would take a terribly long time to craft some ground-breaking widgets that Apple certainly hasn't thought of (like several of the Watson modules that make it much nicer than Sherlock.) Then, they can put in place an online repository for Dashboard plugins. Maybe they could even host third party plugins, creating a system for delivery to users, and take a (small) cut of the profits.
I mean, come on - once upon a time Windows didn't include a TCP stack, so Trumpet made one. Would it have made sense for them to start complaining, once Windows got a TCP stack?
Start your photocopiers...
I don't know if anyone here's gone back to the Konfabulator web site since the Keynote, but you really should. They take a very funny jab at Steve Jobs...
I don't know if anyone here's gone back to the Konfabulator web site since the Keynote, but you really should. They take a very funny jab at Steve Jobs...
Never Used Konfab
I never used Konfab because I always felt the widgets got in my way, with Apple's implementation of using widgets, I think I may start to use them. Dashboard is the same as konfabulator in respect that it uses widgets, but that's it. Let's face it, someone, someday was bound to create a program that also used widgets, I'm just glad Dashboard seems better then Konfabulator right now. It may spark some competition...
Just my 2 cent's
-Kevin
I never used Konfab because I always felt the widgets got in my way, with Apple's implementation of using widgets, I think I may start to use them. Dashboard is the same as konfabulator in respect that it uses widgets, but that's it. Let's face it, someone, someday was bound to create a program that also used widgets, I'm just glad Dashboard seems better then Konfabulator right now. It may spark some competition...
Just my 2 cent's
-Kevin
Have a couple of these things on my desktop already -- a stock ticker and local temps/weather meter.
Wonderful that Tiger will have these doohickeys built in.
Wonderful that Tiger will have these doohickeys built in.
M
må¥å
Guest
Can't really say that Konfabulator is the same as Dashboard:
1) Dashboard is an extension of Expose (as said in the keynote).
2) Dashboard has widgets (is there a billion ways to design a widget).
3) Dashboard is integrated into the OS and cost included (bonus).
4) Dashboard has just been"previewed" meaning it can change when its finally released. (widgets will have an Apple photo-realistic look).
5) Dashboard calls appears and disappears off the screen in a flash.
1) Konfabulator USESES the Expose METHODS.
2) Konfabulator also has widgets (big deal its JAVAscript).
3) Konfabulator is an add-on to the OS and cost 25 USD.
4) Konfabulator has been around for some year now. (the author worked for Apple is quite possible that he took some ideas and fiddle around with it and added a eye-candy touch).
5) Konfabulator yeah its one too many steps to hide(quite) and activate widgets.
People get a life you don't have to use Dashboard in 10.4 no one is forcing you to do so, hell if you want use Konfabulator your choice. Next you will bitch that Safari is a copy of MS internet explorer, OMNIweb and all the other browsers.
The widgets themselves use pre-disposed ideas from the operating system like notes, clock, etc.
I can't believe people are complaining about something so stupid. When Apple stated that MS copied they did indeed copy them they took a working copy of they OS took it apart and just used a different skin and made it unstable
The concept of widgets is not NEW its how its presented with eye-candy might I add they obtained that also from Apple design, have you seen what JAVA apps look like windows 95.
1) Dashboard is an extension of Expose (as said in the keynote).
2) Dashboard has widgets (is there a billion ways to design a widget).
3) Dashboard is integrated into the OS and cost included (bonus).
4) Dashboard has just been"previewed" meaning it can change when its finally released. (widgets will have an Apple photo-realistic look).
5) Dashboard calls appears and disappears off the screen in a flash.
1) Konfabulator USESES the Expose METHODS.
2) Konfabulator also has widgets (big deal its JAVAscript).
3) Konfabulator is an add-on to the OS and cost 25 USD.
4) Konfabulator has been around for some year now. (the author worked for Apple is quite possible that he took some ideas and fiddle around with it and added a eye-candy touch).
5) Konfabulator yeah its one too many steps to hide(quite) and activate widgets.
People get a life you don't have to use Dashboard in 10.4 no one is forcing you to do so, hell if you want use Konfabulator your choice. Next you will bitch that Safari is a copy of MS internet explorer, OMNIweb and all the other browsers.
The widgets themselves use pre-disposed ideas from the operating system like notes, clock, etc.
I can't believe people are complaining about something so stupid. When Apple stated that MS copied they did indeed copy them they took a working copy of they OS took it apart and just used a different skin and made it unstable
The concept of widgets is not NEW its how its presented with eye-candy might I add they obtained that also from Apple design, have you seen what JAVA apps look like windows 95.
Apple did it in 1981
For all those upset with Apple. MacNewsBites has a link to folklore's story about the desk accessories Apple developed in 1981 - over 20 YEARS ago:
http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?pr...by Date&detail=medium&search=desk accessories
Konfab might try to be high & mighty, but Apple does have a history of innovation in this area and I bet the Konfab guys were well aware of it. Fact it that they will pick a huge chunk of revenue from people wanting to play with their offering so there is little for them to cry about on the way to the bank.
It is also interesting reading for those who felt Apple was underhanded with their Dashboard. Take a real close look at the features in the story - notice anything that MS might have copied?
Folklore does a pretty good job of putting things into perspective - especially the date: 1981. How many people raising hell on the boards were even born when the ORIGINAL work was done?
For all those upset with Apple. MacNewsBites has a link to folklore's story about the desk accessories Apple developed in 1981 - over 20 YEARS ago:
http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?pr...by Date&detail=medium&search=desk accessories
Konfab might try to be high & mighty, but Apple does have a history of innovation in this area and I bet the Konfab guys were well aware of it. Fact it that they will pick a huge chunk of revenue from people wanting to play with their offering so there is little for them to cry about on the way to the bank.
It is also interesting reading for those who felt Apple was underhanded with their Dashboard. Take a real close look at the features in the story - notice anything that MS might have copied?
Folklore does a pretty good job of putting things into perspective - especially the date: 1981. How many people raising hell on the boards were even born when the ORIGINAL work was done?