Right. His employment was "voluntary." And if the company knew the child was a minor, it most certainly would not have employed him.
Because businessmen in third-world nations never, ever take advantage of children. Right?
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Death of Underage Worker Sparks More Accusations of Labor Violations at Pegatron [Updated]
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Right. His employment was "voluntary." And if the company knew the child was a minor, it most certainly would not have employed him.
Because businessmen in third-world nations never, ever take advantage of children. Right?
Yup. I see no problem putting an 8 year old to work in the coal mines, provided they're mature for their age...
I in ironic mode, I blame the company 100% and Apple should punish them with all they strenght as they do with Samsung over patents.
In this forum is more important some IP than 5 teenagers life, or that is what it seems.
But I guess that's why Apple went in the first place to China, because it was really cheap to produce.
So let the fanboys be blind again.
Just what were the working conditions like? Because I recalled working hours like this when I was younger for weeks in the hot summer. It's a lot of work, but it doesn't seem like enough to actually kill someone.
Everything else aside, there's too many details missing (And too much conjuncture to fill in the missing gaps) for me to cast judgement one way or the other so I think I'll keep myself in the neutral position. ^_^;
Everything else aside, there's too many details missing (And too much conjuncture to fill in the missing gaps) for me to cast judgement one way or the other so I think I'll keep myself in the neutral position. ^_^;
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This is on Apple. If a manufacturing facility mistreats its workers than its up to Apple to find another contractor. Incidents like this have happened several times.
Right, IMO it is still a work related death, and wasn't really the point I was after anyway.
It's really involved for everyone involved. Western companies go to China because it's cheaper to produce their goods there. And it's cheaper to produce their goods there because China has practically nil labor laws.
I give Apple props for at least attempting to do something about it, at the very least by having exacting standards for the conditions their goods are manufactured in. But ultimately, you could point fingers in all kinds of different directions, and not be wrong.
Whatever we do, the last thing we should be doing is excusing it.
As far as I know, US law disagrees very strongly with you, UK law disagrees very strongly with you, and German law disagrees very strongly with you. For example, let's say you are in the USA, you sell your car to a 17 year old, who drives it, crashes it into a tree without insurance, and comes back to you saying "I changed my mind, I think I don't want to buy that car". Guess what happens: You are going to return the money and get your crashed car back.
I would say this is probably the only reason stuff like this is happening. Many of these workers come from extreme poverty and the money earned in these jobs is a fortune to them. It can provide for an entire extended family and that in itself is a lot of pressure to put young people under.
18 is (in many places) the time that makes the _legal_ difference. That kid was 15. And I'm sure there are eight or ten year olds in bad circumstances who are forced to act in an adult way, but that doesn't change what makes legally a difference. You could have a different situation, where some job might be unsuitable for pregnant women, and if a 21 year old pregnant woman lies to get the job, that's her own fault. But under 18 means no or less legal responsibility.
For hiring an underage worker, I think it's not an either-or thing in terms of blame. I blame the the kid for getting it, and I also blame Pegatron for not seeing that it was a fake ID (or at least doing anything about it if they had known it was fake). I don't know whether the kid intentionally got the ID in order to work at Pegatron, or whether Pegatron knew he was underage and forged the documents. So I'll reserve judgement in that regard.
I find many people forget that lying involves at least 2 people: the person telling it & the person listening. Like Obi-Wan Kenobi said: "Who's more foolish: the fool or the fool that follows him?"
However, there is the issue of working 77 hours a week when the law says 60 max, which doesn't even factor in age. I agree that exhaustion does affect a person's body.
This is one downside of capitalism. So many people & companies would sacrifice safety & quality in order to maximize profits. While I understand wanting to make a profit in order to better yourself & the company, but at what price? You can't spend money if you're dead. (But then again, I've never died before so I wouldn't really know.
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I find many people forget that lying involves at least 2 people: the person telling it & the person listening. Like Obi-Wan Kenobi said: "Who's more foolish: the fool or the fool that follows him?"
However, there is the issue of working 77 hours a week when the law says 60 max, which doesn't even factor in age. I agree that exhaustion does affect a person's body.
This is one downside of capitalism. So many people & companies would sacrifice safety & quality in order to maximize profits. While I understand wanting to make a profit in order to better yourself & the company, but at what price? You can't spend money if you're dead. (But then again, I've never died before so I wouldn't really know.
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Having never lived in such conditions, I can't possibly understand what they are going through.
I am just personally curious how many of the reports of factory (or related deaths) have more to do with the employee pushing themselves, more than it is forced conditions by their employer. I am in no way defending Apple, Foxcon, or any other manufacturer in this regard, I am simply personally curious if there are other reasons, in addition to the abuse these headlines focus on.
We don't know if it is work related. It is claimed, and quite possible, that it is work related, but we don't know. And every time things like these are discussed, there are plenty of people making claims that are just nonsense, and you can't discuss what's going on properly if half of the discussion is either nonsense or people pointing out nonsense. If it wasn't the point you were after, why did you add something that was blatantly not true to your post?
He's saying the Chinese workers should be replaced by robots. Then they won't have to worry about working conditions anymore.
When we purchase products from a company like Apple that gets its products made in China under these conditions, then we are saying "It's ok for a company to work someone for 60+ hours under harsh conditions".
We also support those kind of work conditions coming to the U.S. eventually because how are we as a country supposed to compete with companies over seas paying lower wages under harsher work conditions. The only way for U.S. factories to compete is to use similar wages/working conditions to create an even bottom line.
We also support those kind of work conditions coming to the U.S. eventually because how are we as a country supposed to compete with companies over seas paying lower wages under harsher work conditions. The only way for U.S. factories to compete is to use similar wages/working conditions to create an even bottom line.
Again, it wasn't my intention, and I fail to understand why you are again attacking my comment. I am not attempting to falsely claim anything, or build any type of conspiracy.
To clarify my point, and perhaps to word it better--- I am pondering how many of these deaths are work related, or, how many of them are caused by people pushing themselves due to family or personal pressure.
My first post likely was worded poorly (hey I am browsing at work) however everything-i understood what I was on about, from which I responded to their post.
Terribly sad situation. My condolences to the young lads family.
The only way to stop this is for Apple and other western companies to stop hiding behind local manufacturers and start building their own factories managed by Apple staff in the same way that people are employed in Cupertino. If that means lowering their margins to provide better pay and conditions then so be it.
Just a couple of points, from a medical standpoint.
Working long hours doesn't cause pneumonia. If it did, those of us in the medical field would never survive our training, which recently has been limited to 80 hours/week but prior to that was routinely over 100 hours a week, in an environment where one is exposed to lots of sick people.
This was more likely related to his social situation - poverty and its related poor diet and health care can contribute to pneumonia. He could also have had TB.
While the company bears some responsibility for not identifying an underage worker, I think it's a little ballsy for a family who sent their 15-year-old son to work in a factory to then turn around and blame someone else for their son's death. At least the company had a fake ID to fool them. The family knew how old he was and how much he was working, but felt the need to have him working long hours rather than in school where he belonged. THAT situation is what needs to be addressed much more than the company's failure to identify a fake ID.
Working long hours doesn't cause pneumonia. If it did, those of us in the medical field would never survive our training, which recently has been limited to 80 hours/week but prior to that was routinely over 100 hours a week, in an environment where one is exposed to lots of sick people.
This was more likely related to his social situation - poverty and its related poor diet and health care can contribute to pneumonia. He could also have had TB.
While the company bears some responsibility for not identifying an underage worker, I think it's a little ballsy for a family who sent their 15-year-old son to work in a factory to then turn around and blame someone else for their son's death. At least the company had a fake ID to fool them. The family knew how old he was and how much he was working, but felt the need to have him working long hours rather than in school where he belonged. THAT situation is what needs to be addressed much more than the company's failure to identify a fake ID.
You are right, but after 5 tenagers the bell is more than ringing.
I mean, there must be something going on, right?
You say that without any obvious understanding of their situation. Desperate people do desperate things. I'm sure they would have preferred their son to be in school, what parent wouldn't want the best for their kids. But they are living in abject poverty. They probably needed the money for food and medicines to stay alive.
It's too easy to sit here in the US or UK and lambast these people. Most of us have a safe place to live, food on the table, a well paid job to go to with employment rights written into law, etc. These people live in a harsh, corrupt and evil dictatorship whose leaders don't care about their own people and certainly don't care about welfare or employment rights. Pay off the right officials and they all look the other way.
And your boss let you work 79 hours with pneumonia?
I mean, I don't really know, could the kid fool them again with a healthy face while working?
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Seems that most of us don't care about them either. Hopefully Apple seems "to care" al least in front of public and I hope as we learn more cases they care a lot more, because for me it doesn't make sense to sell Cool Devices to make your life easier while poor laboor teens die producing it. That is not what Apple's marketing stands.
It's a synonym. And "death" was used in the very same sentence:
I suspect the writer chose that word since he already mentioned death.
I want to disagree with you on this, however /r/Apple is actually pretty bad and usually more mob-unfriendly than here, even on a bad day.