Delta Employees 'Fought Hard for the iPad' as Microsoft Announces Surface 2 Deal

[Poisednoise]

Most (all) of today's new jets have a 'glass cockpit'. Everything is a small LCD screen. Some instruments are still analog, but eventually they are going the way of the dinosaur. A series of power failures can take the whole cockpit down.

That did happen in at least one case. I believe the 'Gimli Glider' was one of the worst incidents, and TACA flight 110 also. You really have to read about it to get a glimpse of how easy flying can turn into a really bad idea...

Image

The Gimli Glider incident was not exactly a "power failure". Yes, there was a failure of power, but it was due to the plane running out of fuel. It had nothing to do with an electronics failure, other than that the electronics, like the engines, which also failed, are ultimately powered by the jet fuel. An absence of fuel will cause a plane to stop functioning, regardless of the control system in use.

It's worth reading up about the Gimli Glider, not that this is on topic - an amazing series of blunders and accidents which led to a plane running out of fuel only halfway to its destination (the imperial to metric conversion for the fuel was done incorrectly multiple times, both before and after fuelling, both in Montréal and subsequently at its stop in Ottawa), followed by an amazing series of coincidences and strokes of good fortune (the pilot had significant experience as a glider pilot, the first officer knew the local area over which they were flying like the back of his hand having been stationed there as an RCAF pilot)... it's a great story, with a happy ending. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

 

[calzon65]

Even though I use and prefer both the iPhone/iPad, I am glad to see Microsoft win a deal like this.

Microsoft has dominated the desktop space with Windows but Apple's O/S innovations continue to force Microsoft to work to improve Windows (regardless if you think they have or have not improved Windows, Apple keeps pressure on Microsoft). Conversely, Apple dominates the tablet space, so with Microsoft winning some deals, hopefully this will keep pressure on Apple to innovate.

Any company that can dominate a space will eventually become complacent; it’s just human nature, so competition is generally good for all of us.

 

[FirstNTenderbit]

Guessing pilots wanted the iPads because they are 'cool' but probably because they have personal iPhones/ipads and are very comfortable with them. Learning a new tablet (as different as the Surface is) can be something that is slightly daunting.

and for sure Delta was looking at the financials and MS gave them a great deal whereas Apple most likely wouldn't give them the numbers they wanted to see.

They fly commercial jets. Come on.

 

[PracticalMac]

It's not irrational. IT guys take care of many systems, not just yours. In a big company with potentially thousands of machines, they want everything to be consistent. They learn one set of commands, one set of settings. They follow scripts. It's very by-the-book. That's good for their training as well as for company security (if they have validated one particular configuration as "known good and safe", they can roll it across the whole company and not worry about it). They can also manage spare parts and repairs better if everyone is using the same sets of hardware. This also works in their favour for software licensing agreements.

The irony is, flight software is significantly more advanced and vetted on iPad then all the other (edit) consumer level tablets.

Apple's Enterprise SDK makes it easier to manage iPads and the flight software.

And the more controlled nature of iOS makes it less vulnerable then other platforms.

Word is from the pilot world, Delta will use just PDF's of what they need.
Might as well use a Kindle e-reader Pagewhite.

 

[roadbloc]

ipads already have the software in the app store, been there for a long time

Show me.

 

[PracticalMac]

Most (all) of today's new jets have a 'glass cockpit'. Everything is a small LCD screen. Some instruments are still analog, but eventually they are going the way of the dinosaur. A series of power failures can take the whole cockpit down.

That did happen in at least one case. I believe the 'Gimli Glider' was one of the worst incidents, and TACA flight 110 also. You really have to read about it to get a glimpse of how easy flying can turn into a really bad idea...

Far fewer commercial jets have the "glass cockpit" you think of.

In fact, more private aircraft (propeller and jet) use glass then commercial jets.


And it is unlikely chats will ever be added to an airliner because it will require FAA certification, an extremely expensiveness proposition.

And as noted by others, in the 2 cases you cite, the aircraft still had electrical power.

And on another note, the tablets are not for flight instruments, just charts and maps.

----------

Show me.

iOS

FlyQ EFB iPad only, free download, but requires subscription. AOPA members get $50~$75 discount depending on the plan.

Reader Plates comes with monthly subscription only.

SkyCharts ONE TIME payment with NO monthly subscription! (lean but very nice.)

SkyRadar very low cost 6 and 12 month subscriptions.

Fore Flight offers 30 day free trial, then monthly to yearly subscription.

WingX Pro (Hilton Software) monthly to yearly subscription.

Jeppesen Mobile (FliteDeck and TC) monthly to yearly subscription.

Garmin Pilot offers 30 day free trial, then monthly to yearly subscription. (Was "Pilot My-Cast", Android not fully supported)


Win 8.1 RT (The Surface 2 will run on the Windows RT 8.1 platform per MS article)

UPDATE: Jeppenson is making a port of its Windows software (thanks kdarling)

Windows 7 / regular OS (NOT for RT tablet )
Flightsoft (RMS Tek) Various subscription based.

Vista (RMS Tek) Various subscription based.

MountainScope

Voyager (also with hardware package SkyPad).

Jeppesen offers variety of Windows based software Various subscription based.

 

[springsup]

Yeah, and I took out that segment of my post because I didn't want to perpetuate false information. My company did evaluate iOS and iPads and decided to go with an Android platform instead. I thought the reason was what I stated but obviously there were other factors, not App Store deployment. Again, I don't work in that group. I apologize for making misleading and misinformed statements.

Actually, wait. That in-house enterprise program says that it's for deploying apps within your own company. What if I want to sell you, my customer, a customized iPad running specific software to do specific things? Does that get covered under this program?

Anyway, the reason I brought that up was to point out that, however it works, there can be technical reasons why the Surface was a better choice for Delta's deployment. It's not just a case of "the employees like the iPad better, so let's use that". Maybe it was cost. Maybe it was politics. Maybe it was technical. We don't know.

No you can't resell an iPad with a bunch of bundled Apps. If you wanted to do that and keep the Apps off the general AppStore, you would have to deliver the application source to the customer and they'd have to sign it and deploy it within their organisation.

For military applications, I image the deliverable would be source-code anyway. I can't imagine the military being happy if their custom, mission-critical apps were delivered as opaque binaries.

 

[FirstNTenderbit]

Obviously the pilot doesn't need the tablet to fly. Come on guy. Shall I assume that you think something equally absurd!?!

Not totally serious here, but image that the pilot is bored with 2 hours to kill, so he/she pulls out the table and fires up a fun game of Infinity Blade III. In the heat of a battle, a red light blinks and an audible buzzer sounds. But they are too into the game to notice quickly.

If the FAA approved it, then I guess it's okay, but I still have my concern.

WOW! You are getting hammered. I would humbly suggest you give up. The bolded portion of your post doesn't help you at all. Not totally serious, but partially serious? Reading your responses is similar to watching a slo-mo train wreck. Bad feel me now.

 

[PracticalMac]

As far as tablets go, Surface 2's are pretty good, especially the pro. The question I have is, what difference will having an iPad instead make? I'm certain whoever made the call would have ensured the software the pilots required is available on Windows RT.

A pretty pointless thing to be boycotting an airport over.

iPad's are practically blessed by the FAA (and was even tested by Delta).

Win RT is not, requires approval, and with the Gov shutdown, that will not happen.

Android also passed some approvals.

 

[PracticalMac]

The Surface is the tablet of choice for many Microsoft Certified IT specialists...

It keeps them busy.

Many large companies where the IT department will be "consulted" regarding tablets and smartphones will probably choose the Surface, because of it feels "safe" of them: just another Windows-based device for them to manage.

No flight software for WinRT exists.

WinRT is NOT approved for flight, yet (read MS article)

Bet MS gave them a real sweetheart deal. Gotta get those Surfaces out there at any cost.

yeup.

So did the iPads not work out as well during the beta phase, or did delta really just make a decision on mission-critical technology based on money and cronyism, as the pilot suggested?

iPad is by FAR the leading flight hardware to use.

Yes, Delta just reduced the safety of its flights, as the RT is NOT approved by FAA yet (and the gov shutdown means it will not be for a while).

That's because the Surface 2 kicks the iPad's butt. Too many people are butt hurt over the iPad to realize it though...

Maybe, but someone has to make the software for the RT first.

Oh my goodness. This is funny.

Pilots will use whatever tools their company gives them or else they can look for a new job.

The pilot has every right to ground the flight due to "equipment failure", and the company cannot fire the pilot because of his call.

Its not the same as being forced to use a computer you don't like at work.

----------

I imagine the pilot's desire for the iPads was likely driven by the same material desires as the marketplace - the present fetishism directed at Apple products. While I agree that Apple is making the best products for the general public, especially when tied to the App Store, the same is not necessarily the same for purpose built devices.

Will these pilots be using the same apps as us? No, they will likely be running custom software that will perform equally well on whatever quality hardware is provided. This decision may be influenced by cost, but the back end is that there will likely be marginal difference in the usability of the devices.

There is a huge selection of flight apps for iPad.

Nothing (right now) for WinRT

 

[Gasu E.]

Just wait until they start getting the blue screen of death.

"Attention passengers, we appear to be plunging head first into the ocean... no, wait..."

 

[Mylo130]

We were issued iPads for our flying pubs. They are so locked down (kept in airplane mode and no wifi allowed) that all they are good for is displaying PDF files of our regs and some charts. Pretty sure a kindle could do what we currently do with the iPads, but I believe there are future plans to incorporate more use for the leftover horsepower. The old guys do like the iPad because they can see the bigger text better.

 

[ptb42]

Silly human.. When has a company lowered their fees when they change to a digital medium?

It depends on where Delta gets their subscriptions. Normally, you have to pay for paper publications from Jeppeson or NOS.

But, the data is available electronically from the FAA. It's public information. Delta could gather and distribute the charts to their pilots.

I'll bet the fees actually go up because now the pilots can update more frequently...

The update cycle is determined by the FAA, not the companies that distribute the printed charts.

 

[Mrbobb]

The CEOs of both companies are golfing buddies OR Ballmer made an offer Delta couldn't refuse (but they are going to regret it).

 

[ShinySteelRobot]

Windows has detected that your throttle settings have changed.
Your engines must be restarted for this change to take effect.

Restart now?

[YES] [NO]
​

With Microsoft products it's often just:

Restart now?

[YES]​

no doubt Microsoft basically gave Delta the devices, seeing as that they gave the company I work for waivers for Office for only $10.00 each

Well, naturally. You don't get to be a convicted monopolist by selling software at retail prices.

 

[PracticalMac]

I just hope the pilots have a backup. Reminds me of a navy cruiser incident in the late 90's.

It will not run or operate anything on the aircraft.
Just a source for charts and info.

 

[macbeta]

I hear Ya

IT departments in general don't like or trust Apple. It's pretty irrational.

I remember in a previous job one of the IT guys went mad at me and starting calling me a "hipster" because I wanted to switch my Windows workstation for a Mac. The Mac would actually have been cheaper and had advantages related to the job, but that's the way these guys think.

Yeah I get the same treatment in my job, I even presented figures showing that having mac labs actually saves money - the bonus being if they really really want to run windows for specific tasks/software they can!

 

[Renzatic]

I can decide to boycott an airline for any reason. You called me extremely narrow minded and a baby for not wanting to trust my safety to a tablet, ANY TABLET. Thanks for judging the person and not the idea. </sarcasm>

As Kdarling has said previously, airline pilots have been using Windows for years. This isn't any different.

In the end, it's the software they're using that matters most, not what platform its on. There's nothing about iOS that'll make an app inherently safer or less crash prone than it would be on Windows.

 

[ktmelvis]

What a way to crash twice

This is the only way a plane could crash twice.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

The Gimli Glider incident was not exactly a "power failure". Yes, there was a failure of power, but it was due to the plane running out of fuel. It had nothing to do with an electronics failure, other than that the electronics, like the engines, which also failed, are ultimately powered by the jet fuel. An absence of fuel will cause a plane to stop functioning, regardless of the control system in use.

It's worth reading up about the Gimli Glider, not that this is on topic - an amazing series of blunders and accidents which led to a plane running out of fuel only halfway to its destination (the imperial to metric conversion for the fuel was done incorrectly multiple times, both before and after fuelling, both in Montréal and subsequently at its stop in Ottawa), followed by an amazing series of coincidences and strokes of good fortune (the pilot had significant experience as a glider pilot, the first officer knew the local area over which they were flying like the back of his hand having been stationed there as an RCAF pilot)... it's a great story, with a happy ending. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

You are somehow arguing that my example of a power failure in an airplane wasn't a 'power failure'? Um, OK... They had no instruments except for those that were not powered. Um, OK... In the end, the power was not there. The powered instruments (most of them) weren't working.

I miss your point... Sorry... Whatever...

----------

Far fewer commercial jets have the "glass cockpit" you think of.

In fact, more private aircraft (propeller and jet) use glass then commercial jets.


And it is unlikely chats will ever be added to an airliner because it will require FAA certification, an extremely expensiveness proposition.

And as noted by others, in the 2 cases you cite, the aircraft still had electrical power.

And on another note, the tablets are not for flight instruments, just charts and maps.

Most new jets, complex propeller planes, and most new refurbs are switching to glass. Many 'civilian' aircraft are coming with a glass option. It's here. It works...

Gimli Glider: The cockpit was basically down, according to the documentary that I watched. They had, according to the documentary, had to try to figure out their altitude without using the instruments that, again according to the documentary, were 'out'.

As per the 'tablets aren't used for flight', Yes, that is true and I did not make clear that I was pointing to the failure of the 'small electronics' being a bad thing to happen... Sorry...

 

[ClamshellOfDoom]

IT is supposed to do many things, however, they in fact do precious little. Why? Because Windows, as an OS, simply requires more maintenance than other systems. IT spends an immense amount of time fixing stupid issues (due to a security-unaware Microsoft) caused by stupid users. You see, HR hires barely-technical idiots who then IT spends their days helping. That is why in any sufficiently large company, the power that individual users will have over their machines is cut away slowly but surely, all in the name of “security”. IT has to maintain power and justify their existence. Common sense is what’s lacking, not security awareness.

A Mac doesn’t fit into the paradigm of being something that was designed to give IT problems to solve. Most of IT people can’t understand the concept; it cuts to the core of their self-perception as computer experts. They disdain something that threatens their power. They fear empowered users. So, anything that doesn’t fit in the beige box Microsoft way of doing things must be eliminated, and if that can’t happen, it must be isolated and mocked, and any support to such users must be slow rolled.

This is all due to the fact that the number of truly intelligent IT people is minuscule. Instead you have a lot of Microsoft jocks who pound their chest, act big because they have all the keys, and make up stupid cheers to harass other teams.

 

[kdarling]

The irony is, flight software is significantly more advanced and vetted on iPad then all the other platforms.

I wouldn't say that. Other platforms have been used in flight for almost two decades. Flight software that even integrates with the aircraft is available on Windows and Linux based systems, which have the necessary extra I/O.

Or did you mean just recent mass consumer tablets?

WinRT is NOT approved for flight, yet (read MS article)

The iPad and iOS isn't approved for flight either. I've noted this before, but it bears repeating: the FAA does not blanket approve consumer devices.

Authorization for each use is applied for, and granted to, a commercial operator as a specific operation specification (OpSpec). Every application is different, because each operator's intended use, aircraft types, training, etc. is different.

Delta is just starting, btw. They plan on getting approval in about a year, which is normal.

No flight software for WinRT exists.

Delta says their tablets will be running Jeppesen FliteDeck Pro, compiled for Windows RT 8.1.



Delta says that they picked Windows because:

• It fit their Windows based infrastructure better.
• They could leverage current Windows based training.
• Pilots could use the snap on keyboard and Office after flights.
• Pilots could open two windows side-by-side and do things like compare weather to flight plans.

Delta seems intent on highly integrating these devices into their systems, rather than just using them as glorified e-readers. For example, they intend to write custom code to allow the pilots to exchange information with ground technicians, get electronic dispatch and release info, realtime operational info, etc.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

It depends on where Delta gets their subscriptions. Normally, you have to pay for paper publications from Jeppeson or NOS.

But, the data is available electronically from the FAA. It's public information. Delta could gather and distribute the charts to their pilots.



The update cycle is determined by the FAA, not the companies that distribute the printed charts.

The data is available by the FAA, but the services that distribute them actually bundle ALL of the data together and also add their own touches and distribute them themselves. Sure, for the average privateer, they can 'roll their own' because they generally fly from airport 'A' to airport 'B' exclusively, the average 121 pilot could be damn near anywhere from day to day. Having Delta 'roll their own' is amazing, considering they have outsourced everything except their own corporate management (and some would argue that point) to other corporations. It's not realistic to think that Delta would gather that data when they can pay another company to do it for them.

Plus any changes from published procedures are usually covered by ATIS. There are companies that also conglomerate NOTAMs and TFR's and distribute them to the biggies. With such services available, I would doubt that Delta would want to hire and pay their own people to crunch that data and distribute it...

I can check with a friend of mine that is an actually 121 pilot. Also check out Sporty's Pilot Shop. Yet from my experience with the Surface, I would find it more useful as a door stop then something that I would depend on to get into, or out of, an airport that I had never been to before... The learning curve, and chance for error has to be large...

Whatever...

 

[Renzatic]

Snip

You want to know the real reason why IT professionals don't switch to Macs? It's not because of this stupid us vs. them argument you're preaching on about. It isn't because IT people are inherently dumb, slow moving creatures who literally can't learn another platform...

...No. It's because Apple offers practically no enterprise products, packages, or support.

That's a pretty simple and straightfoward reason, right?

 

[samcraig]

I'd like to point out how much conjecture and ignorance there is in this thread while at the same time pointing out that there's an actual pilot stating facts. It's interesting who is being listened to and who isn't.

----------

You want to know the real reason why IT professionals don't switch to Macs? It's not because of this stupid us vs. them argument you're preaching on about. It isn't because IT people are inherently dumb, slow moving creatures who literally can't learn another platform...

...No. It's because Apple offers practically no enterprise products, packages, or support.

That's a pretty simple and straightfoward reason, right?

To add...
Apple wants to be the end user's choice for computing but doesn't want anything to do with backend stuff.