Okay. So there is nothing wrong with them then. And if it worked out cheaper for Delta then even better.
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Delta Employees 'Fought Hard for the iPad' as Microsoft Announces Surface 2 Deal
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Okay. So there is nothing wrong with them then. And if it worked out cheaper for Delta then even better.
Difficult to say either way.
iOS and even Android is enjoying the top developers aggressive making innovative softwware, while so far only Jepp is making the only software, which is a port of its old Windows and iOS products (admittedly I do not know much more about this product).
I think the question is not if its wrong to do it, but if it will achieve Deltas goals when it is approved 4Q 2014.
United went paperless August 2011, and
June 23 American went all iPad, approved by FAA for its entire fleet of Boeing 777, 767, 757, 737, and MD-80.
Even Delta tested iPad's in its cockpits during that same time.
Point is, if Delta went iPad, they could go 100% paperless (with approval) in days, weeks at most. Instead it will take them at least 13 months to get approval for the RT tablet.. Depending on gov funding.
OR, perhaps Delta will continue to use iPad's until the RT's are ready?
American Airlines bought about 10,000 iPads for the cockpit, but they also bought 6,000 Galaxy 10" Notes for first class passengers and mechanics to use, along with 17,000 Note phablets for their flight attendants.
No sir, that's incorrect that they could go faster. As I keep repeating, iPads are not blanket approved by the FAA.
The FAA process for getting a Class 2 EFB approval is quite involved (see AC here), and is done on an INDIVIDUAL basis... each application taking about a year simply because of all that the airlines must do:
Airlines that wish to use a tablet in the cockpit in place of paper charts, follow a process where they must evaluate which hardware and software they wish to use, how the tablet will be mounted and powered for each type of aircraft, come up with training and operational procedures, equipment and check lists, reporting procedures, etc... then test the tablets in real life to tweak and validate the whole setup.
(This includes testing for tablet electronic interference with the avionics, on a per airliner type and per avionics equipment basis.)
After spending months doing the above and evaluating the results successfully, the operator can apply for an interim authorization to use the tablet to replace certain required paper products. At that point, the operator is required to conduct fleet training for pilots of aircraft authorized to use the tablets, which the FAA will also evaluate. If all goes well, the FAA will grant full authorization.
This is why we see each airline putting out a press release when they get approval... because each has to go through an individual process to get it. Sometimes they'll also do later press releases as more aircraft types in their inventory also get approval.
Jeppesen, btw, now has a program to help airlines with this process. They have evaluation units and I think even suggested procedures.
Not my list. Delta's
Jepp was making Windows based software LONG before it ever made iOS software. So I'm not worried about their ability to make a nice RT version. After all, the iOS version was a port itself.
The approval requests, as I noted, are still a year away, so the current government shutdown has no effect.
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Longevity is a minor pet peeve of mine.
In the old days, you'd custom order devices, and thus be assured that the model does not change every year.
Today's management is more concerned about immediate upfront costs, and might not be thinking ahead a few years to when they'll need replacement units (and/or batteries before then). Newer models will require testing again for interference.
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I think it's too bad that neither the iPad nor Surface WiFi models come with GPS. That would've allowed using Jepps' Airport Moving Map software.
Delta's.
ON review, the ability to use the tablets for training is perhaps the strongest advantage. The other factors really do not seem that compelling, and the keyboard is not comparable to laptop keyboards from the reviews I read.
I can imaging by the time Delta gets approval, a new Surface RT (3?) is out, so Delta needs to immediately reapply again (unless keeps 2 in productions after 3 out)
So far iPad 2 has gone on for 2.5 years, and while I expect it will end soon, chances are the next iPad will be supported for many years too (OS I assume is different matter).
just my $0.02
That's my point.
Surface RT was introduced in 2012. Now that Surface 2 is out, what good is a 1-year old Surface RT by comparison?
What good will a Surface 2 be in the year 2015? We'll have the Surface 4 by then and pilots will just be getting their shiny new Surface 2's.
And with the Apple Store app, you can use your own iPhone/iPad and ring things up yourself... It feels odd, but it does work.
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They announce credit cards only. Maybe they will accept cash in limited circumstances, but they clearly announce that they are card only... One person a row behind me was denied their 'snack box' because he tried to use cash...
It is funny, as we now are also getting black screens of death to boot!
As long as the pilot can do his/her job with a device I am all for it. I can only imagine having to lug around those binders for the planes. I know when I was able to kick all the binders and books for one device which was also searchable. I didn't care what device I had.... made my life that much easier. Of course it happen to be an iPad!
Exactly the same amount of good it is today. These guys just need a little digital aid in flying their planes, they're not crunching major numbers here. If it works today then it'll work forever as long as the software services remain active.
The Apollo Guidance Computer was 16bit and ran at 2.048 MHz. If that can land us on the moon, I'm sure a 32bit tablet running at 1.7 GHz with 2GB of RAM can help fly a plane.
Think of it as exercise
The only thing I have against electronic updates, is that at least when you manually swap out your pages, you might stop when a favorite airport is included, check what the changes are, and be a bit forewarned.
On the good side of electronics, you could instantly find info via an index or search term. On the bad side, you might not be able to quickly find info that you would otherwise find by just flipping pages.
I mean, with a paper manual you can have dog-eared pages that you can visually see. Somehow electronic books have never been as handy to me, even with fancy bookmark and yellow marker options. The devil is in the UI details.
I sent Delta the following:
I just heard that Delta will be going with Microsoft Surface
tablet as the pilot's electronic flight bag to replace all the paper
they carry. Way to go Delta. Going with a crash-prone garbage operating
system. Have you tried using Window 8? Good luck with that. I will no
longer fly Delta because I feel unsafe.
And received this reply:
Thank you for your email to Delta Air Lines.
Deltas electronic flight bag running on Surface 2 continues the
technological strides Delta has been making to give our crews the best
tools to keep them flying safely and efficiently. This intuitive device
puts key information at our pilots fingertips right when they need it.
By eliminating paper, well reduce clutter and minimize time spent
looking for flight information, allowing our pilots the opportunity to
develop greater situational awareness in the air and on the ground.
The second generation Surface tablet leverages Jeppesens
industry-leading FliteDeck Pro application built specifically for the
Windows platform and features interactive software that gives crews
quick access to flight information, charts, weather products and
navigation utilities. Pilots will be able to open two applications
side-by-side using a feature unique to Windows while the FliteDeck Pro
software features high-resolution, color charts and dynamic maps.
Delta plans to expand the role of the tablet in the cockpit and will
look to incorporate additional functionality such as electronic flight
releases, real-time weather forecasts and maintenance and flight logs.
The move will extend the concept of a paperless cockpit well beyond the
removal of flight bags and continues Deltas effort to take advantage of
airspace modernization while driving increased safety and operational
improvements.
We value the relationship you have with Delta Air Lines and would be
delighted to have another chance to restore your trust and confidence in
our service.
I just heard that Delta will be going with Microsoft Surface
tablet as the pilot's electronic flight bag to replace all the paper
they carry. Way to go Delta. Going with a crash-prone garbage operating
system. Have you tried using Window 8? Good luck with that. I will no
longer fly Delta because I feel unsafe.
And received this reply:
Thank you for your email to Delta Air Lines.
Deltas electronic flight bag running on Surface 2 continues the
technological strides Delta has been making to give our crews the best
tools to keep them flying safely and efficiently. This intuitive device
puts key information at our pilots fingertips right when they need it.
By eliminating paper, well reduce clutter and minimize time spent
looking for flight information, allowing our pilots the opportunity to
develop greater situational awareness in the air and on the ground.
The second generation Surface tablet leverages Jeppesens
industry-leading FliteDeck Pro application built specifically for the
Windows platform and features interactive software that gives crews
quick access to flight information, charts, weather products and
navigation utilities. Pilots will be able to open two applications
side-by-side using a feature unique to Windows while the FliteDeck Pro
software features high-resolution, color charts and dynamic maps.
Delta plans to expand the role of the tablet in the cockpit and will
look to incorporate additional functionality such as electronic flight
releases, real-time weather forecasts and maintenance and flight logs.
The move will extend the concept of a paperless cockpit well beyond the
removal of flight bags and continues Deltas effort to take advantage of
airspace modernization while driving increased safety and operational
improvements.
We value the relationship you have with Delta Air Lines and would be
delighted to have another chance to restore your trust and confidence in
our service.
Think of it as exercise
The only thing I have against electronic updates, is that at least when you manually swap out your pages, you might stop when a favorite airport is included, check what the changes are, and be a bit forewarned.
On the good side of electronics, you could instantly find info via an index or search term. On the bad side, you might not be able to quickly find info that you would otherwise find by just flipping pages.
I mean, with a paper manual you can have dog-eared pages that you can visually see. Somehow electronic books have never been as handy to me, even with fancy bookmark and yellow marker options. The devil is in the UI details.
Exactly. If you have to many bookmarks or highlights it can be daunting to sift through those let alone the entire book.
I actually created a little digital notebook using a couple of different programs to try and help speed things up. Especially those items I tend to use more often then not.
Thanks for the insight.
What are your typical sources?
Press releases? Trade rag?
I read in the United link that Delta also using iPads at same time, so I assume Delta already did some work to approval.
Let me ask, until FAA OK's Delta on RT's, Delta still needs to carry the books?
What are your typical sources?
Press releases? Trade rag?
I read in the United link that Delta also using iPads at same time, so I assume Delta already did some work to approval.
Let me ask, until FAA OK's Delta on RT's, Delta still needs to carry the books?
The Surface running RT, not even Pro? Poor bastards.
Sorry but this is just pathetic. It's not like the device the pilots use affects you in any way.
I think the iPad is better too but you people complain like Jodie Foster. The plane isn't going to come crashing down because they consult some charts on a windows tablet instead of an iPad. Some people act like the tablet is controlling the plane itself.
Seriously, it begs the question - is there such a thing as too stupid to fly?
Sorry but this is just pathetic. It's not like the device the pilots use affects you in any way.
I think the iPad is better too but you people complain like Jodie Foster. The plane isn't going to come crashing down because they consult some charts on a windows tablet instead of an iPad. Some people act like the tablet is controlling the plane itself.
Seriously, it begs the question - is there such a thing as too stupid to fly?
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I completely support the notion of iPads in the cockpit. But we as consumers have every reason to be concerned that some airlines are considering cheaping out and using Windows - or worse still Android - tablets.
What makes the iPad a better cockpit tool? I don't see how it's considered 'cheaping out.' Stability? My iPad 3 crashes at least 5 times a day.
To repeat - the device is not flying or responsible for flying the plane.
It's a glorified e-Reader with extra bells and whistles.
I swear...
For what Delta intends, I read their press releases. For everything else, I started studying the FAA regulations about EFBs back when I was first using them around 1999. And of course, pilots also post online about their experience with their airline going paperless.
Probably so. The timetable will also depend on how many different types of aircraft and avionics suites they use. Whoa. At least 17 airliner types in their fleet.
Yep.
And even perhaps afterwards. I think many airlines are doing that.
Suggested risk mitigation options to fully remove paper, paradoxically rely on paper backups:
Nonsense.
The regulatory groundwork for using consumer devices was begun by Windows and Linux based EFBs, along with tools on Windows CE and even Palm handhelds. Without those pioneers for over a decade beforehand, the iPad would've had a much tougher and longer time being accepted.
Verifies what I thought, thanks again.
So while United and American (among others) are now using iPad's as EFB's in cockpit (and other hardware for other in-flight operations), Delta decided to take a long term gamble and delay by another year their own EFB program on a platform that is virtually ignored by aviation app makers (although it is based on Windows), and keep carrying some 30~70 lb of paper per flight.
Delta will still be safe to fly, but I would not invest in their stock.
I agree there are benefits with a tablet that can run Deltas training software, are those benefits really that great that it will pay off some 13~15 months of approval testing debt?
11,000 units is a small number, there are probably more RT units set up as display models in all the stores across the world then Delta would use, so this is in no way a sales coup for MS, much more a marketing one.
And heres to the brave ones, cobbling devices and accessories to make crude but useable EFBs!
V
Delta will still be safe to fly, but I would not invest in their stock.
Why - do you really think Wall Street gives a crap about what technology (if any) an airline uses for this purpose? I would think their safety rating and whether or not Delta is profitable/doesn't alienate their customers (further) with wacky fees/charges, etc is of concern to Wall Street. Not whether they use an iPad, Surface or Paper.
It just means that Delta tried out different tablets before settling on one.
Again, no. There is no extra delay because of tablet choice. Get that idea out of your head
First EFB approval takes around a year for anybody, no matter what platform they choose, even if someone else already used it. E.g. American did not save time by using an iPad like United.
This is because each situation is different to the FAA. Different companies, different cultures, different procedures, different aircraft and avionics to test with. (With so many different aircraft types, Delta has the extra burden of more testing than some other airlines.)
The only way to shorten the time is to have already done the entire setup before. I believe that JetBlue was able to shorten the time for their iPad approval, because they had already been through the same process beforehand, using PC based EFBs.
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Of course they will.
While other airlines can ditch paper and save hundreds of thousands a dollars a year, Delta will still have to carry them, so Delta will be spending more $$$ to keep operating.
Its all about familiarity.
By now the FAA examiners are familiar with iPad and all the apps (would not be surprising if they have it themselves).
Familiarity = efficiency.
Approval procedures will be quicker even with the same diligence, human nature. Chances are someone might see the same combination of iPad, app, and aircraft and approve without even looking at it (happens some of the time).
RT is brand new to aviation, examiners are not familiar and no doubt curious, I am sure they will be "examine" it quite thoroughly.
They may also be more critical of a Windows based system becuase of its more publicized failures and of course threats of malware.
Now, had the iPad, Android, and RT all picked for aviation at same time, then yes, it would be almost exactly the same time and diligence.
This part is fact, read the press releases from MS, Delta, American, and United.:
"While other airlines can ditch paper and save hundreds of thousands a dollars a year, Delta will still have to carry them, so Delta will be spending more $$$ to keep operating."