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Re: MrMacman:

Originally posted by elfin buddy
I decided not to bother pointing out, once again, that we are talking about depleted uranium. I simply assumed that it would be completely obvious to anyone reading this thread. I apoligize for being wrong.

Regardless, depleted uranium is still uranium. The concentration of the radioisotopes in the depleted uranium is obviously lower than it would be in regular enriched uranium (well, duh), but it still posesses about 0.2%-0.3% U-235. The concentrations of U-235 in depleted uranium are still high enough to allow it to be fissioned!

Natural uranium (with about 0.7% concentration of U-235) is relatively harmless, but only in small doses. Holding a chunk of natural uranium in your hand will certainly not hurt you, as long as you don't hold it for any real period of time (like a week). Even though the U-235 concentration in depleted uranium is less than half of that in natural uranium, these people are LIVING with it EVERY DAY for their ENTIRE LIVES! Needless to say, it IS harmful!

Maybe you can post some articles or facts and please, stop ranting and raving... geez...

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Prove it.


Wow I really really wasn't expecting some to ask that oh well.
Nuclear Warheads
Intellegence lieing to senators? No way!

We don't have chemical weapons!... whoops... we do:
cwcstock.jpg


We have 2ed largest chemical weapons program for 'defense and research' yeah sure, BTW, IRAQ is not 1st it is N. Korea
stockpilemap.gif



Woo atleast we don't have bio agents... WTF WE DO TOO?
blsmap.gif

Here is full link
I will refer any of you to this post from now on because I spent 30 min typing.

Good night and never say we don't have WMD!
 
Actually, I didn't mean that uranium is not radioactive. I meant that some isotopes are significantly less radioactive that others. Sorry for the error. Anyway, my point is that the far more significant danger is from the fact that uranium dust thrown off by the weapons or spread through fires is poisonous, not from the relatively small amount of radioactivity in DU. I'm not invested either way in this argument. It's just that DU should not be mischaracterized as a WMD or as a radioactive weapon, as neither is their pupose or actual long-term danger.
 
Originally posted by armandtanzarian
Actually, I didn't mean that uranium is not radioactive. I meant that some isotopes are significantly less radioactive that others. Sorry for the error. Anyway, my point is that the far more significant danger is from the fact that uranium dust thrown off by the weapons or spread through fires is poisonous, not from the relatively small amount of radioactivity in DU. I'm not invested either way in this argument. It's just that DU should not be mischaracterized as a WMD or as a radioactive weapon, as neither is their pupose or actual long-term danger.

Their purpose isn't specifically long-term civilian health detriment, but neither was Agent Orange.

In that case, as in this one, we knew the health effects but chose to ignore them for the benefits of using the weapons.
 
I don't understand how something noted for its density (uranium) would stay floating around in the air for long. Can't be much worse than all the automobile exhaust and brake dust (which is mostly asbestos) we inhale all day.
 
Originally posted by Sedulous
I don't understand how something noted for its density (uranium) would stay floating around in the air for long. Can't be much worse than all the automobile exhaust and brake dust (which is mostly asbestos) we inhale all day.

This is a very enlightening article on DU from a Dutch site: http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/depleted_uranium1.html

Perhaps the fact that depleted Uranium is U-238 and has a half-life of 4.5 billion years accounts for much of the worry.

When a projectile hits a target, 70% of its depleted uranium burns
and oxidizes, bursting into highly toxic, radioactive micro particles.
Being so tiny, these particles can be ingested or inhaled after being
deposited on the ground or carried kilometres away by the wind, the food
chain or water. A 1995 technical report issued by the American Army
indicates that "if depleted uranium enters the body, it has the
potentiality of causing serious medical consequences. The associated risk
is both chemical and radiological". Deposited in the lungs or kidneys,
uranium 238 and products from its decay (thorium 234, protactinium and
other uranium isotopes) give off alpha and beta radiations which cause cell
death and genetic mutations causing cancer in exposed individuals and
genetic abnormalities in their descendents over the years.
In its 110,000 air raids against Iraq, the US A-10 Warthog aircraft
launched 940,000 depleted uranium projectiles, and in the land
offensive, its M60, M1 and M1A1 tanks fired a further 4,000 larger caliber
also uranium projectiles.

A good read.
 
Originally posted by Sedulous
I don't understand how something noted for its density (uranium) would stay floating around in the air for long. Can't be much worse than all the automobile exhaust and brake dust (which is mostly asbestos) we inhale all day.

To address your question, here is a study from the CDC from 1975 that states that thermal degradation causes most fibers to be, from what I can gather from the study, to be at least inert. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/78127_5.html

Auto exhaust is bad stuff, but it doesn't cause leukemia.
 
Point of fact...


We are at war in Iraq, as such we need to use whatever gets the job done. With the recent suicide bombing attacks, and people coming to Iraq from other countries to VOLUNTEER to go on these suicide missions we should NOT hold back in what we use for weapons. In war, you ALWAYS get civilian casualties, it just happens. Do you really think that Saddam gives a royal rat's rectal cavity about how many of his people die?? Consider the fact that he has used biological weapons on them in the past, on purpose.

By the way, DU rounds are NOT fired into populations, at least not unless there is a tank there that needs to be taken out. DU rounds are [mainly] "tank busters" and used as such. They are also NOT WMD since they are made to defeat armor, not kill hundreds (or more) people.

I swear, some of you people would classify a Claymore mine as a WMD since it can kill more then one person when placed properly.

I also hope that someone in Saddam's camp is keeping records of where they are placing their mines, so that they can be removed once the war is over. If not, then that is just one more atrocity that HE is committing against his own people.
 
Originally posted by AlphaTech
By the way, DU rounds are NOT fired into populations, at least not unless there is a tank there that needs to be taken out. DU rounds are [mainly] "tank busters" and used as such. They are also NOT WMD since they are made to defeat armor, not kill hundreds (or more) people.

I swear, some of you people would classify a Claymore mine as a WMD since it can kill more then one person when placed properly.

WMD is not the proper term. A Weapon Causing Unneccesary Colateral Damage (WCUCD) would be a better term.

And just because a weapon doesn't kill civilians instantly, doesn't mean it isn't dangerous to the citizens. Look at a nuke. Sure, it kills many people instantly from the blast, but a far worse death is the radiation poisoning that occurs outside the initial blast area.

In this case, it is far less severe. But we will be (are) fighting in cities and those DU shells and bullets will be fired there. And that ammunition will break up and be exposed to heat when they are fired. And the particles released from that ammunition will get into the air, dust, and ground water.

That isn't good for the Iraqi people. But your right that it isn't as bad as what Saddam does. Its good to keep things in perspective. But if we can prevent bad things from happening to the Iraqi people in the aftermath of this war, why shouldn't we?

Do we NEED to use these DU weapons?

Taft
 
Originally posted by JesseJames
I didn't realize pseudobrit was a munitions expert. :rolleyes:

There just might be a few individuals who read this newsgroup who actually are.

I've read through this thread and rolled my eyes -- a lot of these arguements have come up before, and have been debunked. Others are simply rediculously ignorant.

For example, from the original URL:

>Rokke told the Sunday Herald: 'A nation's military personnel
>cannot wilfully contaminate any other nation, cause harm to
> persons and the environment and then ignore the
> consequences of their actions.
>
>'To do so is a crime against humanity.
> ...
>He called on the US and UK to 'recognize the immoral
> consequences of their actions and assume responsibility
>for medical care and thorough environmental remediation'.
>
>He added: 'We can't just use munitions which leave a toxic
> wasteland behind them and kill indiscriminately.
>
>'It is equivalent to a war crime.'


Now if we interpret this literally, it means that we are obligated to ban all heavy metals - not just DU - and the implication is that this would include both Tungsten and Lead, which includes virutally all pistol & rifle bullets made in all of the countries of the world for the past 200-500 years.

Similarly, if we interpret this along the lines of what the EPA says, then we must cease all NOx emissions (see DOT nasty tailpipe emissions from automobiles), which means that you now have to ban all vehicles from the battlefield, as well as all of the single, double, and triple based propellants, and High Explosives.

This pretty much leaves you with bayonettes, sticks and rocks to fight with...oh, and the Bow & Arrow. Now do we really honestly think that will happen?

Particularly since the Hague and Geneva conventions haven't had a Law of War problem with using these now-known carcinogens for the past century?


Moving on, the question of DU has been studied as per its suitability under the Law of War for years, including environmental effects in the Kosovo conflict. Despite these years of legal reviews, it still has not been declared illegal, despite any claims to the contrary from some uknown quack website.


Finally, if we look at the issue from an objective and scientific standpoint, we know that your personal greatest risk of cancer due to radiation stems from your environmental exposure to Potasium, specifically K-40. The average person incurs an average dose of ~18 mrem a year from K-40, which is roughly half of their annual radiation dose.

Now here's an interesting one: this average dose increases if you're married and sleep next to your spouse, because just like you, they're slightly radioactive too!

And yet we also know that statistically, married men live several years longer than unmarried men, which either infers that "radiation is good for you", or that the cancer risk from this level of radiation is far, far, far outweighed by lifestyle choice.


Now if we get down into the science of the DU risk, sure there's one. And pragmatically, there is a real concern of possible health effects from vaporized DU from its impact on armor. However, the first thing that we have to take into account is that the potential "victim" of this long term cancer risk is the enemy soldier inside of that tank, and we're not trying to give him a 1% higher chance of cancer 20 years from now, but we're trying to kill him outright, right now.

We have to understand that much of the Law of War specifically focuses on the concept of "Unnecessary Suffering" in the employment of force. The legally determined inference of this statement is that some suffering is necessary and thus, allowed. As such, even potentially long term adverse health effects can be considered to be acceptable, if they were otherwise unintended, within the context that the soldier was at least fortunate enough the initial attack that was trying to kill him outright.


Now as a responsible country, we do need to determine if there is any reasonably significant health & environmental impact on Joe Farmer who comes along 2-10 years after that battle. However, it is already been determined that that "innocent civilian"s wellbeing is much strongly affected by the presence of UXO (Unexploded Ordinance) than it is by the health effects of farming on DU contaminated land.


BTW, in case you're wondering why DU is used in the first place, its not because the military likes to use more expensive materials. It is because it has some very unique material properties in its shear stresses that effectively makes it "self-sharpening", which lets it penetrate more armor. This characteristic is provides the military need, which is what supports its legal use from a Law of War standpoint: greater effectiveness is justified through the friendly lives it saves.


Overall, my friendly recommendation is to never trust any oversimplistic claims on issues in general, and especially this one. DU has been a hot button issue that's creates a lot more obscuring smoke than actual clarity on the issue, often because it is really a smoke screen of convenience that's being exploited as part of a different political agenda. Be wary of those who hide their real agendas behind emotionally charged issues.


-hh
 
Originally posted by Taft
Do we NEED to use these DU weapons?

Unless you want to replace the main guns on tanks with missile launchers and pay for the Hellfire missiles, yes, DU rounds ARE needed. Cost per shot/kill of a DU round is significantly less then a single Hellfire missle. The Sabot rounds are the ones used to kill tanks, they don't use those rounds on targets that do not require that level of penetration, or don't have heavy enough armor to defeat the HEAT rounds.

BTW, does ANYONE know for a FACT that DU rounds are in wide spread use in iraq?? Considering how the 120mm HEAT round appears to do a decent job, that may be the main round used at this time.

Some more interesting materials to read... :p
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m830a1.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/120.htm
 
Originally posted by AlphaTech
I also hope that someone in Saddam's camp is keeping records of where they are placing their mines, so that they can be removed once the war is over. If not, then that is just one more atrocity that HE is committing against his own people.

well, iraq and the us have both not signed the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty, so i guess it's ok.

if anyone finds sarcasm in this post, she/he may keep it.
 
Originally posted by noht*
well, iraq and the us have both not signed the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty, so i guess it's ok.

if anyone finds sarcasm in this post, she/he may keep it.


The Mine Ban Treaty is another good example of politics in play.

Why? Because it refuses to differentiate between "dumb" landmines which can remain active & dangerous for 40 years, and modern landmines which have clock-driven self-destruct circuits built into them.

Research who builds & sells which kind to discern how much of this Treaty is truely humanitarian in nature, versus classical capitalism.

There's always more to the story than what initially appears.


-hh
 
Originally posted by AlphaTech
Point of fact...


We are at war in Iraq, as such we need to use whatever gets the job done. With the recent suicide bombing attacks, and people coming to Iraq from other countries to VOLUNTEER to go on these suicide missions we should NOT hold back in what we use for weapons. In war, you ALWAYS get civilian casualties, it just happens. Do you really think that Saddam gives a royal rat's rectal cavity about how many of his people die?? Consider the fact that he has used biological weapons on them in the past, on purpose.

By the way, DU rounds are NOT fired into populations, at least not unless there is a tank there that needs to be taken out. DU rounds are [mainly] "tank busters" and used as such. They are also NOT WMD since they are made to defeat armor, not kill hundreds (or more) people.

I swear, some of you people would classify a Claymore mine as a WMD since it can kill more then one person when placed properly.

I also hope that someone in Saddam's camp is keeping records of where they are placing their mines, so that they can be removed once the war is over. If not, then that is just one more atrocity that HE is committing against his own people.

Let me change this around here...
----
Point of fact...


We are at war in Iraq, as such we need to use whatever gets the job done...

By the way, small chemical weapon canisters are NOT fired into populations, at least not unless there is a large force of troops hidden there that needs to be taken out. Localized gas attacks are [mainly] "underground troop dispatchers" and used as such. They are also NOT WMD since they are made to defeat the enemy's hidden troops, not kill hundreds (or more) people.
---------
Still makes sense, huh?

Look, DU is not a WMD in the traditional sense, but if we had to use your standards to classify what should be used in combat, chemcial weapons would be okay if they were only used against enemy troops, as long as they were effective in combat.

You also seem to miss the point on purpose that DU rounds needn't be fired at or near civilian populations; it's oxidized and travells on the wind for miles. DU is also present in many of the bombs we drop.


Let me ask you this: Agent Orange was a very effective defoliant, and probably saved hundreds of our troops from dying in combat. Looking back, should we have used it?
 
pseudobrit, how would YOU feel about all of this if someone near and dear to you (family member or other loved one) was killed in the war with iraq BECAUSE the bleeding heart liberals got the military to stop using all munitions that contained any DU or other "toxic" materials?

Personally, I thought that we should have just nuked iraq the first time and been done with it. When the conventional war started, we should NOT have stopped before finishing the job. We should have gone in, gotten Saddam, and brought him to trial, if possible. If we could not get to him, we should have bombed the crap out of wherever he was nested, killing him. The governement, also, SHOULD have backed the people in iraq that wanted to overthrow saddam not long after the first war. If any of that had happened, we would NOT be in this situation now with saddam doing his old tricks all over again.

Oh, and I do hope you remember the saying... "all's fair in love and war". :p UNLESS there are laws in place prohibiting the use of a weapon, it's a valid item. The main reason, I think, that WE won't use biological weapons, is because we actually care about our people over there. Saddam, on the other hand, sees them as tools to be used to inflict his will on everyone else. I would NOT be surprised if, at some point during the war, he DOES launch biological or WMD at our troops. At THAT point, we should just send the B2's over with nukes and be done with it all.

You don't like MY opinion, fine, THIS is a free country, I can voice my opinion all I wish. Just as you are free to do the same... :p
 
Originally posted by pseudobrit
Let me change this around here...

You also seem to miss the point on purpose that DU rounds needn't be fired at or near civilian populations; it's oxidized and travells on the wind for miles.

Citation, please.

FWIW, I don't have the hard info handy, but my recollections on the science of the transport diffusion mechanism is that it primarily depends on the ambient wind conditions and how long the particle will remain airborne. IIRC, particles in the 10-100 micron size range fall out the atmosphere very quicky: on the order of -10ft per ~30 seconds. The worldwide average windspeed is also a known metric; the standard normal daytime "moderate" wind conditions is but 2.5 meters/second.

So if we had a 50ft "fireball" of bad particles, the 10+ micron stuff that represents the greatest mass of radiation hazard potential will settle to the ground in <3 minutes, and transport itself only 500yds downwind if done during the day, and <200yds if at night.

I don't see "miles" anywhere within the equasion, even when you go to the "daytime, strong winds" reference standard (5m/sec). In any event, this is a continuous diffusion process, so the further that you spread it, the less concentrated it becomes. I would personally expect the concentration to drop off with the square or cube of distance.




DU is also present in many of the bombs we drop.

IMO, probably not, but please prove me wrong by citing the specific bomb ID/designations.



-hh
 
Let me ask you how YOU would feel if a loved one came home with Gulf War Syndrome. Thousands will. If you want to call that bleeding heart liberalism, go right ahead. But know that your view is much more casual in its disregard for human life, and the lives of the soldiers who are over there.

It is much more certain that casualties (not deaths) will be increased as a result of the use of DU.

It is odd that you are callous enough to wish to nuke Baghdad and at the same time not wish to sacrafice a few American lives so that their fellow soldiers can have healthy lives when they return from battle.

You don't like MY opinion, fine, THIS is a free country, I can voice my opinion all I wish. Just as you are free to do the same..

Not sure where that came from. :confused: I never attacked your freedom of speech, and I'm not sure why you're so defensive about it. Maybe you should just nuke me and get it over with, eh?
 
Originally posted by -hh
Citation, please.

FWIW, I don't have the hard info handy, but my recollections on the science of the transport diffusion mechanism is that it primarily depends on the ambient wind conditions and how long the particle will remain airborne. IIRC, particles in the 10-100 micron size range fall out the atmosphere very quicky: on the order of -10ft per ~30 seconds. The worldwide average windspeed is also a known metric; the standard normal daytime "moderate" wind conditions is but 2.5 meters/second.

So if we had a 50ft "fireball" of bad particles, the 10+ micron stuff that represents the greatest mass of radiation hazard potential will settle to the ground in <3 minutes, and transport itself only 500yds downwind if done during the day, and <200yds if at night.

I don't see "miles" anywhere within the equasion, even when you go to the "daytime, strong winds" reference standard (5m/sec). In any event, this is a continuous diffusion process, so the further that you spread it, the less concentrated it becomes. I would personally expect the concentration to drop off with the square or cube of distance.





IMO, probably not, but please prove me wrong by citing the specific bomb ID/designations.



-hh

Tomahawks carry DU, as do the bunker busters.
Some of these warheads contain over a thousand kg of DU each (eg. the GBU-128, with 1,500 kg of DU), and the new hardened cruise missiles also contain several hundred kg of DU. Finally, Williams notes the largest non-nuclear device in the US arsenal, the 20,000-pound "Big BLU", containing over 5 tonnes of DU, which came into service in early 2002.

Concentrations don't matter; diffusion is not an effective means of removing risk.

Check www.llrc.org for info.
 
pseudobrit...

As you post mentioned, HARDENED weapons with DU are not sent in just for the hell of it. They are used against targets that require that level of penetration.

As for the bunker buster weapons containing DU, how else do you think they can travel deep underground WITHOUT detonating? Once they reach the appropriate depth or however they were set to detonate, the do so. With this being underground (not just under the surface but deep underground) the potential risk to others/civilians is a hell of a lot less then you make out.

BTW, crying about weapons which contain "harmful" or "toxic" materials in order to do their job is just moronic. I am not advocating chemical or biological weapons, but munitions that contain DU because of what they are used against is necessary.

People that join the military do so knowing there is a chance that they will be called to war and die. They also know that there could be battlefield conditions that cause them problems down the road. They join anyway because they choose to. Do you not think that if more people objected to how the military treats it's personelle that we would have people volunteering?? I think not.

Something else, did ANY of the other countries in the previous war with saddam have troops come down with the "gulf war syndrome"?? Don't answer unless you have facts to back it up. Also, have facts to point to it being caused by the use of DU rounds, and not something else. From what I remember, many claimed it was caused when they destroyed stockpiles of chemical agents that saddam has stored. At least, that's one theory. :p
 
Originally posted by -hh
And yet we also know that statistically, married men live several years longer than unmarried men, which either infers that "radiation is good for you", or that the cancer risk from this level of radiation is far, far, far outweighed by lifestyle choice.

I don't think it is appropriate to use this statistic to make conlusions about radioactivity. One would have to make huge leaps to connect the two, there are just too many variables.

As far as levels of radioactivity being healthy vs. causing cancer, there is still much debate about this. Many credible scientist fall on each side of the debate. There just isn't enough research to determine the truth about low levels of radiation, yet.

Also, as afar as the ability of particles to travel in the air, isn't the temperature of the particles a variable that needs consideration. When the DU is vaporized, I would imagine the temperature is such that it would float in the air sufficiently to travel with the wind. I don't imagine that the particles would stay hot very long, though.

I'm not making any conclusion about health risks...I just don't know enough about it, but I can't imagine it would be benficial. Is this one of the theories behind Gulf War Syndrome?
 
Oh, and yes, I do feel that the only way to truely end this war, and any potential wars in the future with iraq may come down to nukes. If he starts launching biological and chemical weapons at our troops, then I would stand firmly behind our government nuking them into oblivion.
 
Originally posted by AlphaTech
Oh, and yes, I do feel that the only way to truely end this war, and any potential wars in the future with iraq may come down to nukes. If he starts launching biological and chemical weapons at our troops, then I would stand firmly behind our government nuking them into oblivion.

Yeah, because nothing will rally the world and the Muslim nations behind the US like a nuclear holocaust. :rolleyes:

Do you know what the F you're advocating? The implications?
 
Originally posted by -hh
Citation, please.

Here another good place to start:

http://www.eoslifework.co.uk/pdfs/DU2102A3a.pdf

http://www.eoslifework.co.uk/pdfs/DU2102A3b.pdf

DU burns into a very fine black dust or "aerosol" with a combination of soluble and insoluble Uranium oxides... 60%+ are less than 1.5 microns...DU contamination was recorded up to 25 miles away from one manufacturing site in the USA [where they were not exploding and incinerating the things]

From llrc:
Alpha particles have a short emission path so may be hard to detect outside the body. Customary histology and autopsy studies do not detect plutonium in the living body so it is likely to be an occult, undetected and unreported factor. In man, it is particularly well situated to cause harm since it lodges especially in the body-wide reticulo-endothelial system. (2), in human tracheo-bronchial lymph nodes at concentrations between 100 times and 10,000 times higher than in any other tissues in the same body. (3), (4). Here it can impair and kill cells of the immune system leading to immune deficiency and eventually leukaemia. Leukaemia is found down wind from Windscale which has been processing nuclear waste and extracting plutonium since 1952.

From http://www.padrigu.gu.se/EDCNews/Research/DU-Update0102.html
The existence of plutonium was confirmed by two of the laboratories involved in the field research, which with three other European labs are analyzing 340 soil, water and other samples taken during the November mission. The UNEP confirmed that some of the labs also found uranium 236 in the ammunition tips.


There's also a thorough list of known and suspected uses of DU in conventional munitions in those PDFs.
 
Originally posted by pseudobrit
Tomahawks carry DU, as do the bunker busters.

The "bunker busters" bodies are manufactured at Watervliet Arsenal in northern New York, the only facility of its kind in the USA. Watervliet lacks the capability to work DU, as they are a gun tube manufacturing facility, working nearly exclusively in exotic high-strength alloy steels. For example, the GBU 27 Bunker Buster is made from an 8" M201 SP Howitzer artillery gun tube.


FWIW, by any chance are you getting DU crossed with Thermobarics? TBx is a newer explosive that's in use in both BB's and Cruise Missiles.


Concentrations don't matter; diffusion is not an effective means of removing risk.

My professional dealings with medical PhD's for calculating Toxicology Risk Assessments disagrees. For example, can you dispute this type of dosimetric procedure?



Done. IMO, their political bias is immediately exposed when they exploited Iraqi birth defects as only attributable to DU, whereas research from Kentucky has shown that crude oil contamination alone will cause doses of ~7,000 mrad/year per occupant, and that Iraq was thoroughly contaminated by the oil fires from '91. To blame all birth defects on exclusively DU flies in the face of scientific credibility and is downright disingenuous.


-hh
 
Originally posted by -hh
Done. IMO, their political bias is immediately exposed when they exploited Iraqi birth defects as only attributable to DU, whereas research from Kentucky has shown that crude oil contamination alone will cause doses of ~7,000 mrad/year per occupant, and that Iraq was thoroughly contaminated by the oil fires from '91. To blame all birth defects on exclusively DU flies in the face of scientific credibility and is downright disingenuous.

Maybe I'm generalising, but from what I've read, the "bunker buster" warheads are where the DU is. Also, the term "bunker buster" applies to more bombs than it used to, as more of them have penetrating abilities. If you read the PDFs I posted, it gives a good rundown of all the munitions with this ability.

Also, in regards to llrc.org -- I'm sure the oil fires caused a great deal of toxic and carcinogenic problems. But how do you account for a similar increase in cancer in the Balkans, where there were no oil fires?
 
Originally posted by -hh
The Mine Ban Treaty is another good example of politics in play.

Why? Because it refuses to differentiate between "dumb" landmines which can remain active & dangerous for 40 years, and modern landmines which have clock-driven self-destruct circuits built into them.

Research who builds & sells which kind to discern how much of this Treaty is truely humanitarian in nature, versus classical capitalism.

There's always more to the story than what initially appears.


-hh

:confused: i don't get it... are you implying that some countries which manufacture cheap mines have invented the Mine Ban Treaty because western companies were building better mines...? again, i really don't get your point; please explain it to me.
 
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