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No, you provided a source that supports your narrative.

Here is a link that supports my position.
It is one for the UK. Even though the UK is no longer in the EU it's laws on trading were active when they were in the EU and therefore the link I've provided it relevant to what was then and what it is now which is the following:

Do You Need to Register Your Small Business in the UK?​

So, in general, any business in the UK must be registered if a trade or professional activity is carried out, goods or services are bought or sold, income and profit are generated, and interest is earned. All this indicates that you are not doing a hobby, but a business.

Most often, small businesses are registered in the form of sole traders. In this case, the only thing you need is a national insurance number. The owners of such a business receive all profits after taxes but are fully responsible for all business processes. The sole trader registration in the UK provides for the establishment of business owners as self-employed and the payment of all taxes.

So basically what this means is if you carry out a trade, goods or services are bought and sold, you MUST register as a business in the UK, even if you are a sole trader you must register as a sole trader.

This principle is common amongst other European countries as well.

So as I said, EU case law means squat. The individual country sets out it's law on trading, not the EU.
Your own source directly contradicts you. Just as in the link I provided, merely selling something doesn't qualify you as a trader. The sale must be in service of a "trade or professional activity", not merely a hobby.
 
"Developers Must Share Phone Number and Address on EU App Store to Meet 'Trader' Requirement Starting in October"
As the heading says, it would happen in October, so Apple is ready already.
 
Let me get this straight, you can afford a Mac, the developer license and a bunch of test hardware, but a mailbox is too much?

If you're writing little hobby apps and not making money from them - you can offer them for download outside of the store.
Strange you think it's "just a mailbox" that one needs.
 
Finally a crack in the facade of the DMA/DSA. Showing that they just want control. Why would I need to know the phone number for Riley Testut? 1,000,000 people cannot be reliably nor properly handled by one guy's cell phone. And he can't afford to contract out a service center, refunds, etc.

It's starting to show that it's a poorly thought through power grab. Because now, the EU has to do ZERO work tracking someone down to punish them.

And how does this help the consumer? If I can call a one dude company to troubleshoot, how does that one dude handle me and millions of others in a timely and nonstressful manner? Apollo was one dude with others helping for free sometimes, OSS. It got shut down because Reddit wanted to make an API to make money, which they don't even report if they make any money. Again, how does this help the consumer?

One person making $2 million rev has upfront hosting, time spent updating and maintaining, and making sure they are clean and right with governments on regulations, taxes, etc. What does this Trader Status requirement do that helps us? The Trader just gets a number that goes to a service announcement stating that support is through an email, and then states the email. Then, terminates call.

So, again, where does the consumer benefit from this requirement? They don't. Epic can just throw up a 1-800 number, which can be Googled. AGAIN....
 
For everyone who is for this, please post your home address, name, and phone number in the thread since you're so confident this is a good thing.

Hans J Haraldsen
Vibes gate 2OA
N-O356 Oslo

Phone number: +47 4O6 29 667

https://1881.no to search both for my name and phone number.
My net income and how much I pay in taxes is also publicly available.



Also my business is available on a government website for all companies in Norway: https://w2.brreg.no/enhet/sok/detalj.jsp?orgnr=915022650

You can order all kinds of info about my company including annual financial statements, board members, company officers, etc.
 
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I agree, but for companies. Individual hobbyists shouldn't have to provide this personal information.

The options for us are either:
1. Knock all our prices down to 0 in the EU. We develop the apps, keep them up to date with the new technologies Apple brings out, and we get 0 for that effort; or
2. Remove our apps from the EU. We then make no money from apps in those 27 countries, and concentrate on other markets, like the US.

One thing a lot of people don't realise is that for individual hobbyist developers with an active Developer Program account, it's very likely that we used our Apple ID for the Program, so now, would it be possible for anyone in the EU who maybe has a grudge against a developer for some issue they got in an app, to try and lock us out of our iCloud account?

I still think even individual developers need accountability for how their app handles and should answer questions and queries and be contactable if things go wrong. End of the day you are creating something that you are demanding money for so its a business at the end of the day.

I sell a lot on eBay and I wouldn't class myself as as company but I still answer questions relating to my products which come through to my private email.

Why would you use your personal Apple ID to run a business? Common sense to make new Apple ID away from your personal one.
 
So you want only big corporations to thrive and do business, and small businesses to get out of the way . Cool.
Not what I was saying at all.

But everyone needs be accountable for their product. If you decide to monetise your product and expect payment then you need to accept people will need to be able to contact you if things go wrong.
 
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You only have to browse x/Twitter for a couple of days to understand that there is a staggering amount of incredibly dumb and truly insane people out there. A big corporation has the means to shield itself from them, thru filters : they will be stopped at the office entrance, their calls filtered thru the receptionist, etc..
A lone developer that works from home simply won’t have the means and energy to stop idiots from showing at their door and threaten their family because they got upset by the latest update to a casual game.

Ironically, the EU has always been place that protected consumers while punishing and making life harder for small businesses more than big corporations.

I believe there should be a law banning companies from filtering themselves in this way from consumers who have legitimate questions.

Any contact number should be answered by a real person. For larger companies if some automation is needed then at most two option pages before a real person must pick up. Auto hang up if a wrong option is selected or the user runs out of options should be banned.
 
I think more importantly what the EU & UK need to work on stamping out next is the rising cases where websites state. cookies must be enabled to continue to view the website for free. If the user refuses they must pay for a subscription in order to opt out of cookies.

This is absolutely horrendous abuse of power. Massive fines in the hundreds of millions, even billions for bigger companies should be levied to show them never to do this again.
 
*sigh* life was simpler and better before EU's DMA.

yes, I would love it if an angry customer with a 6 year old phone is complaining my app no longer supports his outdated iOS version to show up at my doorstep with a knife.
That's the EU for you. If it were the USA, the angry customer would be a 6 year old, who shows up on your doorstep with a gun.
 
*sigh* life was simpler and better before EU's DMA.

yes, I would love it if an angry customer with a 6 year old phone is complaining my app no longer supports his outdated iOS version to show up at my doorstep with a knife.
If the Dev has a website they already need to disclose all that info
 
Right, but when you put an app on the App Store you have to provide a "Support URL", which is described by Apple as "A URL with support information for your app." If someone wants help with an app of mine, they can use that link.

For my apps, that URL points to a website with help and guides for that app, plus a contact form where anyone can contact me. They don't see my email when they use the contact form, and when I reply (which I always do), I use an email address I can easily change if it gets spammed or abused.

Publishing my personal/Apple ID email on the App Store is a massive no-no.
So when you link to a web based contact form where you collect personally identifiable data, you'd have to publish the exact same data that you are so against in your privacy policy, and terms of service of that website 🤷‍♂️
There are so many comments about setting up burner phone numbers and post office boxes to "get around" the implantation. If that's the solution, then what is the purpose of the requirement?
Those who suggest that are not in touch with what vetting actually get done, and what registrations are required. I have registrations with Microsoft, Apple and Google. Microsoft and Apple have already verifications and searches in place. If those measures are registered with companies house then you'll easily pass the test.

I haven't read through all the comments, but what would stop someone from entering in a bogus address? Also, do they confirm your phone number by sending you a code, or how does that part work?
When you sign up with Apple the vetting you go through checks your DUNS, and thus also your registered address at the relevant companies house etc. It has been a long long time since I registered for a personal developers account, there was also some vetting included especially when you wanted to sell. But for personal protection I would not recommend doing that in your own name, if there is a lawsuit it could cripple you personally. Just do it using a limited liability legal entity form. And even then, as as any corporate lawyer would advise, one such companies is not a company. You need at least two and set one up as a holding.
 
I sell a lot on eBay and I wouldn't class myself as a company but I still answer questions relating to my products which come through to my private email.
All that is good, until eBay sends your details to the relevant tax office. 😏
 
Yep. No apartment numbers.

I’m what blew my mind when I moved to Germany is that you have to anmelden (register) with the local government and give them your address and copy of your lease to prove you live there within two weeks of moving in. And then when you’re moving out you have to abmelden (de-register). All of this has to be done in person too (or at least it did in the mid 2000s).

No idea if that’s a normal thing in Europe, but as an American it definitely felt very Big Brother-y.

Every German speaking person is born with a little policeman inside...
 
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Trader status has nothing to do with which app store you sell through. In EU tradition, it's a fluid "concept" determined on a case by case business based on undefined criteria with undefined thresholds.

See section 2.2.
Well as I’m reading it my understanding is that it’s the responsibility of the store to collect this information and publish it about the trader.

So could you point to something in this document regarding Directive 2005/29/EC and its relevans to Regulation (EU) 2022/2065 (Digital Services Act) that amends Directive 2000/31/EC?

  • Treaties: Primary law, foundational agreements.
    • These are the core legal documents that set out the EU’s objectives, institutional structure, decision-making processes, and the relationship between the EU and its member states.
  • Regulations: Secondary law, binding and directly applicable:
    • These are binding legislative acts that apply directly and uniformly across all EU member states. Once a regulation is passed, it becomes law in all member states without needing to be transposed into national law.
  • Directives: Secondary law, binding goals but flexible implementation.
    • These set out goals that all EU member states must achieve, but they allow each country to devise its own laws on how to reach these goals.
  • Decisions: Secondary law, binding on specific entities.
    • These are binding on those to whom they are addressed
 
*sigh* life was simpler and better before EU's DMA.

yes, I would love it if an angry customer with a 6 year old phone is complaining my app no longer supports his outdated iOS version to show up at my doorstep with a knife.
Yeah, thats what happens everyday to supermarkets when a customer finds a bad apple - they're stabbed for providing bad quality products and services.

App Devs who make money are businesses, they make money off you and me and provide a service thats paid. Its not AT ALL a strange thing for a plumber, shopkeeper, vape reseller, conglomerate of car tyres to have an official address to send inquiries (it could be their home address, it could be an office, a headquarters etc), where they pay tax etc. I don't see why it shouldn't be different for app devs on the App Store. Undoubtedly a PO box would probably be ok to use as well so no private address has to realistically be given.

Secondly, having a developers contact information in case of need of a refund, a bug to report when undoubtedly their official site is taken down, or is non functional which is commonly the case - that's a good thing. When I buy a good or service from someone, knowing how to get in touch with them is actually enormously important to most people - even if its just an email address.

Thirdly, it'll have a positive effect on getting rid of a substantial amount of fake apps who wont want to be pursued by the authorities when enough reports of their rubbish apps come to fruition. This is good for us USERS, a mild inconvenience for devs.
 
EC: Privacy is a fundamental human right
Also the EC: please show everyone your home address if you made an app
You don't really understand what its about - they're not being obligated to show their "home address" but even a trading, like an office address and I imagine that even a PO box will do.
 
Honestly this is to protect customers. (in the EU) Companies are required to have publicly available contact info when dealing with consumers. (for after sales, questions, etc.)
I answer questions all the time from email and social media. I've actually added several features from people reaching out to me and requesting them through my contact info.
After re-reading the article as well as other reporting, it appears that the contact info will not be published for apps that make no money on the app store (up front, with subscriptions, or ads). Thus this should not be an issue when you just publish a hobby project for friends and family to download.
I have small hobby apps that I sell. They pay for my Apple Developer account and keep my skills fresh.
It looks like a PO Box isn't enough. From the email I got from Apple today re Books on the Bookstore "phone number, email, and physical address" is required.
Which is really confusing because this page specifically mentions PO Boxes.
I guess that it's just a shift in developer privacy dynamics.
Anonymity over the internet maybe is a bad thing, maybe not, it probably depends..?
I think some people simply would prefer being hidden from public eyes..
But maybe this will lead till better app development..
Oh please. You act as if a small developer not wanting their home address listed for the world immediately is shady? That's quite a blanket statement. My apps have great average ratings AND people can easily contact me without my home address being listed.
I’m right there with you. My apps are my “hobby business” and don’t generate nearly enough income to justify the expenses I’d incur for “proper” business resources. I will simply opt out of any opportunities with the EU market. It’s just so surprising to me that the EU would snub individual-run businesses this way in favor larger ones.
Same boat for me. I do get customers in the EU but they are a vast minority.
I like the idea in theory, but there are probably many unintended consequences and more holes than swiss cheese in the implementation.

Great, so you force everyone to get a PO Box. Any developer that doesn't really care about their users will just sign up for a PO box that they never check. Same for the phone number. Buy a prepaid burner phone that you never answer.

Scammers? Most malicious apps likely originate in countries that couldn't care less about fraud happening to others, like Russia, China, Iran, etc. Hell many of them are probably state sponsored themselves. So I'm pretty sure you aren't going to really be deterring them.

You're probably not actually solving the problems that you are trying to solve, just adding a minor inconvenience to everyone.
EXACTLY. Don't the scam apps pull in tons of profit? They're not going to care about spending the money to get a PO Box or office front. The small indie developer is the one getting screwed.
OTOH I am also a YouTuber and have already had someone at my door before my new fake address was registered, even though I am small potatoes with only 500 subscribers.

I value my privacy and safety higher than the very tiny chance that the EU will fine me for not providing true contact information.
Exactly! I roll my eyes at the people that say "my address has been public and nothing has happened to me". Congrats. That doesn't means there aren't nuts out there and that safety applies to everyone.
You only have to browse x/Twitter for a couple of days to understand that there is a staggering amount of incredibly dumb and truly insane people out there. A big corporation has the means to shield itself from them, thru filters : they will be stopped at the office entrance, their calls filtered thru the receptionist, etc..
A lone developer that works from home simply won’t have the means and energy to stop idiots from showing at their door and threaten their family because they got upset by the latest update to a casual game.

Ironically, the EU has always been place that protected consumers while punishing and making life harder for small businesses more than big corporations.
And we have seen how irrationally some people will react to changes in software they don't like.
Speaking as a consumer in the EU, I would be happy simply with the support and privacy links Apple already requires developers to provide working. There are plenty of apps out there where the support link is just dead.
What about a system where an entity tries to use the dev's contact info. If they don't get a response, then yank them from being able to sell. That seems much more logical to me. I always answer my support emails and social media posts.
An individual hobbyist's details are their private, personal details. We do not have the money to rent a business address and phone number. You people seem to think we're making tens of thousands of € a month. We aren't. We're lucky to get a couple of sales a week.

Also, why raise the idea that individual hobbyist developers are "shady"? That's just plain rude. I can tell you, Meta and Google are far shadier than I have ever been or ever will be!

Exactly. I love how people are just throwing around "rent an office" or "get a PO Box". The cheapest I've found is a $190 PO Box for a year. I don't make that much each year from the EU and I would have to pay that yearly for as long as I want to make apps? Hell no.

You don't really understand what its about - they're not being obligated to show their "home address" but even a trading, like an office address and I imagine that even a PO box will do.
You act like that's free. An extra small PO Box is around $190 a year for me.
 
Secondly, having a developers contact information in case of need of a refund, a bug to report when undoubtedly their official site is taken down, or is non functional which is commonly the case - that's a good thing. When I buy a good or service from someone, knowing how to get in touch with them is actually enormously important to most people - even if its just an email address.
You contact Apple for refunds. That's the system today. If I got an email asking for one I would refer them to Apple. I answer emails and social media posts about bugs and feature requests in a timely manner.
 
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