Developers Must Share Phone Number and Address on EU App Store to Meet 'Trader' Requirement Starting in October

[Sogeman]

Only if the website is selling directly to consumer instead of linking to the App Store.

Imprints are necessary for most websites. Unless it's some private site

 

[breenmask]

Imprints are necessary for most websites. Unless it's some private site

When you linked out to iOS store, you didn't need to, except if you made money from the click of the link. Plenty of iOS devs did this.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

And I don’t remember claiming this is something new. Nor I claimed this is something Apple decided to do for no reason whatsoever.

If you read my initial post all I’m saying with my little joke is the European Commission both claims to stand for my right to privacy (with many good laws about what companies or cannot do with my data) but then expect me to dox myself in order to sell a small app on iOS

I hear you, but what many people forget is that when you are selling you become a business. Now if you choose to do that under your own private individual you will expose (dox) your personal information. I wouldn't do that, I'd always incorporate in a legal entity, not just from a privacy perspective but also from a liability perspective.

Also I’m not sure what you meant by “if you have a website that also applies”, but if you’re talking about WHOIS in the EU you can actually opt out of showing your contact information in a WHOIS query
That’s why my personal website is hosted under a .eu domain, so that I can hide that information

No, if you have a website, to support your applications that you are selling, then you'll have to have things like a privacy policy, and terms etc. Those documents will need to contain things like a telephone number and physical address. It is just how businesses operate, standard obligations.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

The EU is trying to rule the world from their little continent, and Dox all the devs. I will be removing my apps from sale in the EU. Apple always required support contact information, such as my support website, which I have to pay to keep running, and it has spam filters. So I have to add street address, email and phone number accounts? I already get multiple spam text messages, paper spam, phone calls, dozens of emails every day, and that's when my info is hard to find. With this, it will essentially open up 4 spam / hater vectors, including physical access, to anyone hacker / scammer / spammer / evil person in the world who writes a script to make an https call to the app store.
For those wondering why you can't use a "Fake" address, or a P.O.box, apple does not allow P.O. Boxes for businesses for a DUNS number, which is required if you're a "business", instead of an "individual". (or was it the state did not allow a PO Box as a business address? can't remember, but somewhere in the system it stops you from using it. a po box was my original plan, but I ended up not being able to do that.) if you want to use a personal address, Apple requires you to send in like your drivers license with the address on it. so you can't just use an arbitrary address. you have to file paper work with the state to have your address for your business legally moved to the other address in order for DUNS to pick it up, and they're actually pretty bad at verifying that stuff. Got mine wrong multiple times when I set up my LLC.

The European continent may not be as big a North-American one, but it is actually larger than the US However, the EU doesn't represent a continent, so the premise is false to begin with

 

[johnmacward]

You act like that's free. An extra small PO Box is around $190 a year for me.

Are you aware that anyone else that sets up a business in Europe has to pay numerous charges for administrative reasons, business registering, registering officially their home / business address and contact information, tax reasons etc. Why do you want to be the exception ? If you wanted to be an independent plumber tomorrow, you'd have to cough up a certain amount to set up as an independent sole trader or limited business and you'd have no choice in the matter and the reason is accountability as soon as you make money off people. It's the same reasons I have to give my employer all my details too, I'm accountable to them. You're accountable to your public now. If you're app makes so little money that you can't afford basic charges to run a very tiny business, then make it free and the rules won't apply.

 

[redheeler]

Seems this may be a good thing for accountability. Many devs wanted more control and they got it. And now that this rule came down, they should have to comply. Seems it's good for everyone.

How did devs get more control?

 

[I7guy]

How did devs get more control?

DMA.

 

[johnmacward]

Exactly! I roll my eyes at the people that say "my address has been public and nothing has happened to me". Congrats. That doesn't means there aren't nuts out there and that safety applies to everyone.

I roll my eyes at the people who say "I once heard a story where a developer was attacked for publishing their address". Yeah, highly improbable things CAN happen, but it doesn't mean that they will. I doubt you use the same logic for crossing the street, which is probably 4 times more likely to result in your death than a customer coming to your home address to complain about your 0.99€ app. I'd guess you take that risk regularly however.

What do the literally MILLIONS of business that exist in the EU who have registered public business addresses, phone numbers and email addresses do in this situation - they do NOTHING, because rarely does ANYTHING strange happen to them. I know PLENTY of business people for which nothing ever happens to them, EVER. Again, crossing the street and being hurt or killed is 100 times more likely than a weird customer coming to your home / business address.

And we have seen how irrationally some people will react to changes in software they don't like.

And again how do the millions of public businesses that exist today deal with this ? They don't have to... it incredibly rarely happens.

What about a system where an entity tries to use the dev's contact info. If they don't get a response, then yank them from being able to sell. That seems much more logical to me. I always answer my support emails and social media posts.

No, because Apple would undoubtedly not follow this up, you made the app and hence you're responsible for this. Ironically if you provided a fake mail address there is a very good chance that the EU wouldn't follow this up either, but that wouldn't be good for your end customers.

Exactly. I love how people are just throwing around "rent an office" or "get a PO Box". The cheapest I've found is a $190 PO Box for a year. I don't make that much each year from the EU and I would have to pay that yearly for as long as I want to make apps? Hell no.

I find it hard to believe that considering you're an EU citizen that has the means to own a computer for app building, that you would find it hard to find 190€ a year for a P.O. box. Also your home address would be free, AND I could guarantee you, no one would care less about it.

 

[johnmacward]

I agree, but for companies. Individual hobbyists shouldn't have to provide this personal information.

You're no longer a hobbyist if what you're trying to do is make money, even if that's just 10€ a year, you're a business, albeit a small one. You may think of yourself as a hobbyist, but hobbyists tend NOT to make money, only spend it on their hobby. If you're a hobbyist, offer your app for free. My hobby is Flight Simulator, and trust me, it just costs me money.

@darkpaw Right, but when you put an app on the App Store you have to provide a "Support URL", which is described by Apple as "A URL with support information for your app." If someone wants help with an app of mine, they can use that link.

Have you any idea of how many of them don't work after a couple of months, or go nowhere, or never get an answer if you send something even after you've paid money for their app. This upping the game in terms of information required and proof that you are legitimate to take peoples money should hopefully go some way to cleaning up the sheer amount of crud and crap in the App Store as having to provide official documents will go a certain way to getting rid of the 5 minutes in Xcode developers who create copies of other apps, or "clickbait" apps that scam many out of their hard earned money. Them having to provide official addresses where police may turn up after a few hundred complaints of the product NOT doing what it was advertised to do might may them think twice. I'm not saying you're that type of developer, but my God, they're ten a penny on the "moderated" Apple App Store and it brings the overall quality down.

 

[MisterSavage]

I find it hard to believe that considering you're an EU citizen that has the means to own a computer for app building, that you would find it hard to find 190€ a year for a P.O. box. Also your home address would be free, AND I could guarantee you, no one would care less about it.

Nice rant but I'm an American and apparently a "nutter" for valuing my privacy. I'm going to pull my apps from the EU so it's a win win for both of us.

ta ta, I'm off to answer support emails for my app.

 

[chmania]

ta ta, I'm off to answer support emails for my app.

"Ta ta" is pretty British, after all. 😊

 

[redheeler]

DMA.

If Apple complies with it and/or the law is enforced. So far neither has happened, it’s all been a bunch of big talk and slippery behavior that’s likely to drag on for years. All this has done is expose how little control developers actually have over anything, either Apple’s policies or the EU’s. Small developers especially.

 

[surferfb]

If Apple complies with it and/or the law is enforced. So far neither has happened, it’s all been a bunch of big talk and slippery behavior that’s likely to drag on for years. All this has done is expose how little control developers actually have over anything.

Apple is absolutely complying with it. There are some areas where uncertainty/disagreement between Apple and the EU remains (because the law is clear as mud), but they're absolutely complying with it. Third party app stores exist, Safari users are forced to go through a ridiculous browser choice screen, Apple is implementing ways to remove almost every single pre-installed app from the phone, etc.

 

[redheeler]

Apple is absolutely complying with it. There are some areas where uncertainty/disagreement between Apple and the EU remains (because the law is clear as mud), but they're absolutely complying with it. Third party app stores exist, Safari users are forced to go through a ridiculous browser choice screen, Apple is implementing ways to remove almost every single pre-installed app from the phone, etc.

If the EU is stupid enough to agree that a “Core Technology Fee” is in compliance and do nothing about it, then for the average developer the DMA may as well not even exist.

 

[I7guy]

If Apple complies with it and/or the law is enforced. So far neither has happened,

So far both have happened.

it’s all been a bunch of big talk and slippery behavior that’s likely to drag on for years.

What was expected. If the eu told apple to pound sand their businesses now a public enterprise there would have been repercussions. So instead a half ansses set of regulations was created.

All this has done is expose how little control developers actually have over anything,

Devs now have complete control. They can open up their own app store, like epic.

either Apple’s policies or the EU’s. Small developers especially.

 

[redheeler]

Devs now have complete control. They can open up their own app store, like epic.

The Core Technology Fee and still requiring a percentage of transactions made outside the App Store makes this completely impractical for many developers. If the junk fees are removed then it would be a win for developers. As it is now with the junk fees it's not only not a win for developers, it pretty much outright mocks them. One of the largest corporations in the world charging you for installs of an app that may be completely free and not even making you money, just because it can. You wrote your app yourself, you distributed your app yourself, and we don't care if you're even making money off it – gimme gimme gimme.

Seems like they did add an exemption for apps not making any revenue. Credit where credit is due on that at least.

 

[I7guy]

The Core Technology Fee and still requiring a percentage of transactions made outside the App Store makes this completely impractical for many developers.

That’s my point about freeloading. Devs are though in control. They are no longer beholden to apple.

If the junk fees are removed then it would be a win for developers.

Why should it be a win for developers and a loss for apple. The CTF evens it out doesn’t? Devs save and apple earns.

As it is now with the junk fees it's not only not a win for developers, it pretty much outright mocks them.

Why should devs get to freeload. Apples IP is not an all you can eat buffet.

One of the largest corporations in the world charging you for installs of an app that may be completely free and not even making you money, just because it can.

I like how people play fast and loose with other people money.

You wrote your app yourself, you distributed your app yourself, and we don't care if you're even making money off it – gimme gimme gimme.

Find a platform yourself.

 

[redheeler]

Have you any idea of how many of them don't work after a couple of months, or go nowhere, or never get an answer if you send something even after you've paid money for their app. This upping the game in terms of information required and proof that you are legitimate to take peoples money should hopefully go some way to cleaning up the sheer amount of crud and crap in the App Store as having to provide official documents will go a certain way to getting rid of the 5 minutes in Xcode developers who create copies of other apps, or "clickbait" apps that scam many out of their hard earned money. Them having to provide official addresses where police may turn up after a few hundred complaints of the product NOT doing what it was advertised to do might may them think twice. I'm not saying you're that type of developer, but my God, they're ten a penny on the "moderated" Apple App Store and it brings the overall quality down.

Is there anything stopping them from submitting a PO Box address and temporary phone number?

Apple should probably incentivize removing this crud, but it makes too much money for Apple since it always gets its cut from the in-app purchases, and often they pay for ad spots to appear at the top of legitimate searches too.

 

[darkpaw]

You're no longer a hobbyist if what you're trying to do is make money, even if that's just 10€ a year, you're a business, albeit a small one. You may think of yourself as a hobbyist, but hobbyists tend NOT to make money, only spend it on their hobby. If you're a hobbyist, offer your app for free. My hobby is Flight Simulator, and trust me, it just costs me money.

I put "companies" in bold because I was talking about companies, i.e. registered companies, entities that are companies. Individual hobbyists are individual developers. You are either an individual developer or a company in Developer terms.

Have you any idea of how many of them don't work after a couple of months, or go nowhere, or never get an answer if you send something even after you've paid money for their app. This upping the game in terms of information required and proof that you are legitimate to take peoples money should hopefully go some way to cleaning up the sheer amount of crud and crap in the App Store as having to provide official documents will go a certain way to getting rid of the 5 minutes in Xcode developers who create copies of other apps, or "clickbait" apps that scam many out of their hard earned money. Them having to provide official addresses where police may turn up after a few hundred complaints of the product NOT doing what it was advertised to do might may them think twice. I'm not saying you're that type of developer, but my God, they're ten a penny on the "moderated" Apple App Store and it brings the overall quality down.

If a support URL doesn't work, then perhaps Apple should ping the urls every few months and warn the developers that if the url is broken their apps will be removed. That would fix your issue with those urls. Putting my personal details out there for anyone to see - whether they've bought my app or not - is not a fix for that. But anyway, if the support URL is broken after a few months, how do you know the name isn't fake? Why are you so sure you would be able to get in touch with them?

You think the police are going to turn up at someone's house because an app does something it's not advertised to do? No chance. If an app does something like get into your bank account and steal your money that would be a massive fail for Apple. Your bank would refund your money, and Apple would get such bad publicity for it. It just hasn't happened yet.

Any talk about money is for the buyer of an app and Apple to fix. If you want a refund for an app you've bought from Apple, you have the right to request it. You do not need to contact the developer to get the refund, and the developer cannot give you the refund anyway. We don't handle payments.

 

[chmania]

Individual hobbyists are individual developers. You are either an individual developer or a company in Developer terms.

Of course they are, until they charge money for their "product," then they become business persons. A company, by the way is few business entities/persons joined together. The idea of "companies" started in Britain in the 16th century,

that the company became unleashed from the state and began a power grab which continues to this day.