It the idea and concept of it. Great, you found a work around. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.
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Developers Must Share Phone Number and Address on EU App Store to Meet 'Trader' Requirement Starting in October
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Only if the website is selling directly to consumer instead of linking to the App Store.
a bad apple - $0.89 loss, customer is well aware of the apple before buying
software - $1.99 or $19.99, but customer spent many hours in the app only to find it will no longer work. and migrating away (if there is an alternative) will be a lot of work.
completely different scenarios
Email is great for tech support.
EU customer needing my USA address and phone number that's not going to be answered during EU hours? useless.
Apple handles all the App Store refund requests, not the app developer.
Nope. Immediately I can see new companies setting up services for virtual address for iOS developers for this purpose for scammers.
What is the problem?
I think it is a very good idea to know who is behind an app I'm about to buy. If they can't afford to run a company with a phone number and address, what are the chances they will be around to keep supporting the app I'm about to pay for?
I have removed my apps for sale in all EU countries. I’m not a corporation. I’m an individual developer. I don’t have in-app purchases. The scant money I make barely supports the hobby. I’m not comfortable giving out my address and phone number. I have an email address for app users to contact me if they have a problem.
app developers are based all over the world. All the EU is doing is making them accountable for the app's they make available to EU users. It is far to easy for someone to make an app, sell it in the app store then disappear once they have got the money they wanted. I see it time and time again when looking through the app store and reviews left by users, users leaving reviews saying an app was good but now it's not because due to ios updates the app no longer works properly but the app developer has gone, disappeared. There was no dispute resolution in place where EU consumer could claim their legal consumer rights if something was not right with an app and they needed the app developer to resolve the issue.
I believe the only resolution that was in place was if an app developer decided to disappear and no longer update their app that Apple would kick the app put of the store. Unfortunately under EU trading laws that is not good enough. If money changed hands (users paid for an app), the trader must be contactable by email, phone or postal address so issues can be resolved. An app developer can not just disappear once.
All the EU is doing is bringing existing trading laws inline with the online world. People need to understand, if they want to trade in the EU then they must abide it's trading laws. The EU has one best consumer protection rights in the world and people who want to trade/do business with EU consumers need to get with the program or leave.
I believe the only resolution that was in place was if an app developer decided to disappear and no longer update their app that Apple would kick the app put of the store. Unfortunately under EU trading laws that is not good enough. If money changed hands (users paid for an app), the trader must be contactable by email, phone or postal address so issues can be resolved. An app developer can not just disappear once.
All the EU is doing is bringing existing trading laws inline with the online world. People need to understand, if they want to trade in the EU then they must abide it's trading laws. The EU has one best consumer protection rights in the world and people who want to trade/do business with EU consumers need to get with the program or leave.
Yes, but that's your main business. You have a company, you have an accountant, you have a business address and a business phone line, you pay for indemnity insurance etc. As an indie developer I have none of those things and cannot afford them either. This is not my main business.
(I ran a business for 12 years, so I know what's involved, and I know that selling an app for 99p isn't really a business.)
Same here. I've pulled the apps from the EU. It's done.
Whilst the wording in EU documents may be open to interpretation, individual EU country trading laws are not. If you offer a paid service to the public then you are trader and as such traders need to be a licensed business in the countries they wish to operate in.
In your post you said you ran a business for 12 years. I would therefore like to ask you about that. You obviously bought and sold stuff hence why you had a business so why do you feel selling your app for 99p does not constitute 'business'? because you are selling a product to the general public ergo you are trading a commercial product to the public. 1p 10p 99p, it does not matter because as soon as you attach a price to something and sell it to others in quantity you are automatically defined as a trader.
Therefore I am curious. A farmer sells milk for 99p a bottle, an app developer sells their app for 99p, the farmer has to set themselves up as a trader/business, app developers say they do not have to. Both are selling a product to the public .Why does the app developer think the trading rules do not apply to them?
Imagine 10,000 or 100,000 or a million downloads...😏
Child developer: "Okay, I use mom phone number..."
next day LOOOOOL 🤣
What are you ****ing doing, EU??? You are an idiot and useless! 🙄
next day LOOOOOL 🤣
What are you ****ing doing, EU??? You are an idiot and useless! 🙄
Again, your own source contradicts you. Merely selling something doesn't make you a trader, nor are there clear thresholds between selling something as a hobby and as a business.
If you keep on selling something, then you are a trader
There's no such thing as "selling something as a hobby." That "hobby" of selling becomes the habit...and the business...
If you think so then please specifically show where otherwise stop making the posts you are doing.
Also, as I have said in one of my points, if you believe I am wrong and you are right, go prove it by doing what I suggested in my one of my posts otherwise refrain from arguing with me.
Feel free to provide a source. I'm just quoting the source provided by the other poster, as well as the guidance provided by the EU.
I did. I linked to it in my post where I quoted the relevant parts of your source.
From your post:
"if a trade or professional activity is carried out, goods or services are bought or sold, income and profit are generated, and interest is earned. All this indicates that you are not doing a hobby, but a business."
So, if no profit is earned and the sales are not part of a trade or professional activity, it may not qualify you as a trader.
Nice try. Just because the article does not say that does not mean it applies.
It's your source. If you think it's wrong, provide a different one.
For the EU guidance:
Whether a seller qualifies as a ‘trader’ or a consumer must be assessed on a case-by-case basis. In the Kamenova case, a person had published a total of eight sales advertisements for various new and second-hand goods on a website. The Court noted that the mere fact that the sale is intended to generate profit or that a natural person publishes, simultaneously, on an online platform a number of advertisements offering new and second-hand goods for sale cannot suffice, by itself, to classify that person as a ‘trader’. The determination of the status by the national court must take into account different non-exhaustive and non-exclusive criteria.
The criteria include the following:
— whether the seller has a profit-seeking motive, including the fact that they might have received remuneration or other
compensation for acting on behalf of a given trader;
— the number, amount and frequency of transactions;
— the seller’s sales turnover; whether the seller purchases products in order to resell them;
— whether the seller is subject to VAT;
— whether the sale is carried out in an organised manner;
— whether the seller had a legal status which enabled them to engage in commercial activities;
— whether the goods for sale were all of the same type or of the same value, and, in particular, whether the offer was concentrated on a small number of goods;
— whether the seller had technical information and expertise relating to the products which the consumer did not necessarily have, resulting in a more advantageous position of the seller compared to that of the consumer;
— whether the seller purchased these goods in order to resell them, thus making that a regular, frequent and/or
simultaneous activity in comparison with her usual commercial or business activity.
The nearest tax office, city office will give you that information. Anyway, if you keep on selling something continuously, you are a trader. That "something" can be one item or various items. If you generate an income and a profit out of your "hobby selling" you are a trader.
It's a massive problem of that info is publicly available. Making it available to the authorities is one thing, which I agree with... to the public it is entirely different.
That's not what the DSA demands. Individual hobbyist developers are not being forced to become licensed businesses in the EU.
No, I didn't buy and sell stuff.
Again, the DSA is not requiring me to set up as a business; it requires my phone number, email address and personal address to be displayed to everyone regardless of whether or not they've bought my apps.
Besides, your farmer is selling to another business. The buyer creates a purchase order, and purchases the milk from the seller. The seller provides an invoice. Indie app developers are selling to individual consumers via the App Store. We aren't selling directly to the buyer. Apple is offering my apps among millions of others.
Think of the App Store like a supermarket. There are many items on sale and the consumer can pick which ones to buy. Yes, they can look up any product, see who created it, and contact them, but they are businesses in their own right (and under UK law, they are businesses). They have a business address, a business phone number, a business email address (sometimes). Indie devs are not businesses. We do not have a business address that would hide our personal home address. We don't have a separate phone number for people to call.
This situation has worked perfectly well since the App Store came out 15+ years ago.
So, if I have a load of stuff I've bought over the years, and I want to get rid of it on eBay, I must provide my home address, email address and phone number to everyone who visits my auction pages? Must I register at Companies House as a business?
You mix hobbyist development with development for an ongoing business. We are not writing apps as our main income source. We just created some apps and let people buy them via the App Store.
If that were to happen I'd clearly have the impetus to become a business, and could afford a catch-all email, a business phone number, and an office address, etc.
The EU is trying to rule the world from their little continent, and Dox all the devs. I will be removing my apps from sale in the EU. Apple always required support contact information, such as my support website, which I have to pay to keep running, and it has spam filters. So I have to add street address, email and phone number accounts? I already get multiple spam text messages, paper spam, phone calls, dozens of emails every day, and that's when my info is hard to find. With this, it will essentially open up 4 spam / hater vectors, including physical access, to anyone hacker / scammer / spammer / evil person in the world who writes a script to make an https call to the app store.
For those wondering why you can't use a "Fake" address, or a P.O.box, apple does not allow P.O. Boxes for businesses for a DUNS number, which is required if you're a "business", instead of an "individual". (or was it the state did not allow a PO Box as a business address? can't remember, but somewhere in the system it stops you from using it. a po box was my original plan, but I ended up not being able to do that.) if you want to use a personal address, Apple requires you to send in like your drivers license with the address on it. so you can't just use an arbitrary address. you have to file paper work with the state to have your address for your business legally moved to the other address in order for DUNS to pick it up, and they're actually pretty bad at verifying that stuff. Got mine wrong multiple times when I set up my LLC.
For those wondering why you can't use a "Fake" address, or a P.O.box, apple does not allow P.O. Boxes for businesses for a DUNS number, which is required if you're a "business", instead of an "individual". (or was it the state did not allow a PO Box as a business address? can't remember, but somewhere in the system it stops you from using it. a po box was my original plan, but I ended up not being able to do that.) if you want to use a personal address, Apple requires you to send in like your drivers license with the address on it. so you can't just use an arbitrary address. you have to file paper work with the state to have your address for your business legally moved to the other address in order for DUNS to pick it up, and they're actually pretty bad at verifying that stuff. Got mine wrong multiple times when I set up my LLC.
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