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bretm said:
I've never purchased an OSX upgrade. They don't sell OSX upgrades. There is no such thing as an OSX upgrade.
Uh, yeah, you did. They don't need to offer a full version, because if you own a Mac that has the necessary specs for the new version, you already have a prior license. You think OS X is almost $200 cheaper than Windows just for the hell of it?

In fact, OSX does not use a license. There is no license. There is no serial number. There is no requirement for a previous version to be on your computer. There is no discount if you own a previous version.
Sorry, but it does have a license. In fact, you admit that it does..."the EULA may say it can only be installed on a Mac approved machine." (End User License Agreement.) With any upgrade, there's no requirement that a previous version be installed on your computer; you must only own a previous license. As for the discount, $129 is the discounted price. They have no need to offer a full version, so you don't have a ~$300 version to buy because no one would ever need to buy it.

As you say, end of story.
 
Subiklim said:
peharri said:
This forum thread is about a chip set that Apple would have found perfect for use in laptops. Even if they hadn't, there's simply no way they didn't know at the time of the Intel announcement that things like the 17W 970FX were not around the corner (they were announced a few days after Apple's announcement. What do you think IBM did, kept their existance a secret from Apple? Apple knew these were coming)
QUOTE]

Someone has a case of the mondays....

The problem here is that the chip has NOT yet been produced. Theoretically it could be a perfect chip, but it's not being produced.

I'm 99% sure the 970FX is in production. The chip that's the source of this article isn't, but it doesn't really matter, as there are CPUs, such as the 970FX that could have been used in the interim. Apple certainly didn't have to decide last year to switch to Intel, if the PASemi's PowerPC had turned out to be vapourware, which would be obvious by now, they could make the decision today. In the mean time, they have an excellent range of PowerPCs to use. Ars's Hannibal says it best:


I've been flamed furiously for my blasphemy, but whether my flamers will acknowledge it or not I'm now having the last laugh. P.A. Semi., IBM's 970FX/MP, POWER5, and the next-generation of game console chips all show that the book is by no means closed on PowerPC. In fact, we're in the opening moments of a full-blown PowerPC Renaissance. Who knows how long the PPC revival will last, but Apple would've been hard pressed to pick a worse time to jump ship for performance or performance/watt reasons.

But they didn't jump ship for performance or performance/watt reasons. They jumped ship because they no longer care about making leading-edge computer hardware. They also don't care about PC market share, or any of that other G3-era Mac Faithful malarkey. From now on, merely "good enough" is good enough for the Mac line, and the real innovation will come in the form of post-PC gadgets and entertainment-oriented, techno-cool doohickeys. But I repeat myself...


Damn straight.

Also, you do not know for a fact that Apple witheld procesors from the iMac. That's based on assumption.

It's based on fact. Or are you saying an iMac G5 with the same dual-core G5 that appears in current PowerMacs was actually released?
 
The truth about Apple going to intel is about volume and cost. With the PPC chip IBM and Freescale had Apple by the balls. I would wager that no other chip (CPU) manufacturer in the world can produce quotas as high as intel. And we all know the basic rule of economics: the more of something that is produced the cheaper the price will become over time. And intel has been producing x86es since the early 80's.
 
dr_lha said:
You realise this will never be legal? Apple don't sell full-retail versions of OS X, they sell upgrades. Don't believe me? Tell me the last time anyone has bought an Mac OS boxed version who didn't already own a license to a previous version of OS X. I imagine with Leopard boxes, Apple will more clearly mark these as upgrades and fully specify in the EULA that they are not to be installed on anything other than an Apple box.
EULAs are only valid if you agree to them. One thing's for sure: if a third party installer is written, they're not going to write it such that you have to agree to Apple's EULA to install the operating system. At that point, the legality becomes a matter of the doctrine of first sale.
I'm sure you'll still persuade yourself you're in the right pirating the OS though, and with the above comment you've just invalidated everything else you've said in this thread.

The word pirating refers to copyright infringement. A violation of an EULA is a contract violation, not an act of copyright infringment. Additionally, as I just said, if Apple doesn't make an installer that works for third party machines, you'll be using a third party installer, and that installer is highly unlikely to require the user agree to an EULA.

The second part of your sentence is ridiculous. It's delightful that we might be able to buy a legitimate copy of Leopard and stick it on a PC, but it doesn't mean Apple's decision to switch to Intel chips has resulted in more powerful Macs. Though, if you want, we can prove the principle. I'll "justify" (bogusly) downloading an ISO of Tiger (because we actually do want some piracy to occur), and you can benchmark a Mac mini before and after I've installed it and see if it runs faster.
 
It all comes donw to market share. Sure there are competitive chips out there but they cant dual boot windows and hence wont attract new adopters. Apple wants to increase its market share in the long run and the only way to do that is by allowing people use windows along side OSX, either that or license OSX itself.

I'm sure steve didn't want that so by elimination he went with intel chips. I knew this was the case and the performance per watt crap whilst true was just a cover story.

Does the intel switch make me cringe?...yes
Would i prefer it if we stayed with anything other than intel even choosing AMD?....yes

Is it the end of the world by switching to intel?...no. Its still a good business decision and overall a likable one. Intel has a good future ahead of it.
 
dr_lha said:
You realise this will never be legal? Apple don't sell full-retail versions of OS X, they sell upgrades. Don't believe me? Tell me the last time anyone has bought an Mac OS boxed version who didn't already own a license to a previous version of OS X. I imagine with Leopard boxes, Apple will more clearly mark these as upgrades and fully specify in the EULA that they are not to be installed on anything other than an Apple box.

You know, B&W G3's, slot-loading iMacs, and early G4 systems that didn't ship with OS X are just the machines you say don't exist. If they've been running OS 9 (or 8.6 in the case of the B&W's and some iMacs) up until the release of Tiger, then bought a Tiger box, they get Tiger and ti's not an upgrade; it's a full install. The license is to the full install.

And in the case of the machines you ARE talkign about, yoru old OS X license for 10.3 or 10.2 or whatever can be transferred to another machine since you've freed up that license by putting 10.4 on the machine you're upgrading.
 
Y'know, it would have been awesome had Apple gone with this company and they had 7W dualcore 2GHz chips in laptops at the begining of 2006, or something totally revolutionary in early 2007. There was something to be said about the feeling, from a totally non-logical standpoint, of running something different, with the potential to leapfrog everybody else stuck on x86.

But face it, I'm typing this on a 2.16GHz dualcore chip in a laptop RIGHT NOW, and it cost slightly less than a comperably equipped machine from Dell (and I can now confidently say "comperably equipped", because it uses roughly the same components).

Furthermore, Intel is a massive company, with a massive userbase, and in case nobody has noticed, THERE AREN'T ANY CHIP SHORTAGES. I ordered a popular, top of the line Mac a week after announcement, and it shipped right on schedule 5 days later, within a day of the machines that were ordered the second they were announced, EXACTLY WHEN APPLE SAID THEY WOULD START SHIPPING.

I stil remember waiting over a month for my first-gen G5. I also remember IBM saying that they'd have 3GHz in a year, which they STILL didn't 2 years on.

Now, it's not that Intel didn't have problems with their marketing-driven, MHz-over-performance-and-everything-else P4 monstrosity, but then if that were to happen again we would be stuck in exactly the same position as every other PC manufacturer, and so instead of looking stupid, Apple just looks like everybody else.

PLUS, thanks to AMD, Apple also has the option of bailing on Intel and going with another supplier if that becomes necessary--there is, admittedly, Freescale, IBM, and this new startup in the PPC arena, but none of those companies are focused on the desktop/portable chip market with their architecutres, unlike both AMD and Intel, and none of them would sell even a fraction of the chips to Apple that AMD and Intel already sell to other manufacturers, guaranteeing future development.

Now for a quick reality check about Intel's Core architecture:

I spent some time looking through a PC benchmark site's chip roundup. The 2.16GHz Core Duo--which is available in quantity right now--generally performs somewhat better than a top-of-the-line 3.75GHz P4 Extreme Edition or whatever they're called. It also performs almost as well as, if not better than, every laptop chip on the market, and is only a little behind AMD's high-end stuff. It's not 64 bit, of course, but it even performs (on desktop-oriented stuff, admittedly) roughly in line with an equivalently clocked Opteron.

Fundamentally, the Core architecture looks VERY promising, and we haven't even gotten to the high-end desktop/server versions of it yet. Which is why Apple hasn't replaced the G5 in the towers--non-universal pro app issues aside, the G5 is still competitive so far.

It's funny, because if you look at the P4-line of x86, it is a craptacular architecture, and PPC, even in it's current state, is more promising. But there's more to Intel's x86 than the P4, and Core has demonstrated that. Basically, Apple switched just at the right time, when things stopped stagnating.

What that means is that my laptop is now roughly comperable in raw performance with anything available that runs Windows. Futhermore, it is roughly equivalent in most areas to an equally-clocked dualcore G5 (borne out by both benchmarks and my own comparision with my G5 tower).

The G5 was a competitive architecture even as stuck as it was--most of the benchmarks I've seen show it as roughly clock-for-clock equivalent with an Opteron)--except mobile wasn't happening, regardless of what IBM said was possible. We now have a new architecture with a lot of promise to play with, some REAL speed in a portable, and the option to jump to AMD if in need.

It'd have been awesome to go with a startup that hit paydirt with their design, but frankly it was a riskier move for Apple than going x86. It wasn't the "cool" decision to make, but so far it seems to have been the right one.

One more thing: From a totally sales standpoint, aside from being able to run a full-speed virtualized Windows install now, it's nice to be able to say to my boss (and others who ask for advice) "Just buy Apple everything. In the event we need to run Windows instead of the MacOS, we'll just install it and dual-boot." That would have meant at least 3 more sales for Apple instead of IBM/Lenovo in the past year and a half.
 
DougTheImpaler said:
You know, B&W G3's, slot-loading iMacs, and early G4 systems that didn't ship with OS X are just the machines you say don't exist.
I meant boxes OS X are upgrades to Mac OS, I didn't mean "just OS X", see my later post. Those B+W G3's had a version of Mac OS on them didn't they? Hence the boxed Tiger is an upgrade to that.
 
dr_lha said:
I meant boxes OS X are upgrades to Mac OS, I didn't mean "just OS X", see my later post. Those B+W G3's had a version of Mac OS on them didn't they? Hence the boxed Tiger is an upgrade to that.
Actually, you DID say that. Here's the quote again

dr_lha said:
Tell me the last time anyone has bought an Mac OS boxed version who didn't already own a license to a previous version of OS X.
You're talking about upgrading OS X to a later OS X and that it's the only way upgrades are done.
 
DougTheImpaler said:
Actually, you DID say that. Here's the quote again


You're talking about upgrading OS X to a later OS X and that it's the only way upgrades are done.
Yes, I made an error, I meant "Mac OS" not "Mac OS X", and you're being pedantic. I edited my post above that you just quoted to correct it. I'm not really sure what your argument with me is here, but here's mine:

You cannot buy and legally install Mac OS X without owning a license to a previous Mac OS.

Pretty simple. Now tell me why I'm wrong.
 
peharri said:
EULAs are only valid if you agree to them. One thing's for sure: if a third party installer is written, they're not going to write it such that you have to agree to Apple's EULA to install the operating system. At that point, the legality becomes a matter of the doctrine of first sale.
No, that's not true. One, you must agree to the Apple EULA to install the OS, and if you don't agree, you have no legal right to use the software. Two, if a third-party installer removes the Apple EULA, that does not waive its protection and is, in fact, a felony. Under no circumstances is a third-party installer legal, and thanks to the DMCA and the (somewhat milder) EU counterpart legislation, installing and using such a cracked copy is a crime--not a civil matter, a crime.


The word pirating refers to copyright infringement. A violation of an EULA is a contract violation, not an act of copyright infringment.
Bypassing any hardware or software security systems on a piece of software is a far greater concern than this quibble. Further, violation of the EULA is indeed a contract violation as you say, but use of OS X on unauthorized devices is copyright infringement.

Additionally, as I just said, if Apple doesn't make an installer that works for third party machines, you'll be using a third party installer, and that installer is highly unlikely to require the user agree to an EULA.
That doesn't mean the EULA isn't in force.
 
peharri said:

I've been flamed furiously for my blasphemy, but whether my flamers will acknowledge it or not I'm now having the last laugh. P.A. Semi., IBM's 970FX/MP, POWER5, and the next-generation of game console chips all show that the book is by no means closed on PowerPC. In fact, we're in the opening moments of a full-blown PowerPC Renaissance. Who knows how long the PPC revival will last, but Apple would've been hard pressed to pick a worse time to jump ship for performance or performance/watt reasons.

But they didn't jump ship for performance or performance/watt reasons. They jumped ship because they no longer care about making leading-edge computer hardware. They also don't care about PC market share, or any of that other G3-era Mac Faithful malarkey. From now on, merely "good enough" is good enough for the Mac line, and the real innovation will come in the form of post-PC gadgets and entertainment-oriented, techno-cool doohickeys. But I repeat myself...


Damn straight.

It's been mentioned in this thread before, but I'm sure you're aware of the processor related problems the Xboxes are having. I'm also sure you're aware of the catostrophic delay, and inventory shortages that the xbox exprienced (err, is experiencing) due to the processor.

And I am ALSO sure you are aware of the performace comparisons between the 'prosumer' Powermac g5s and the 'consumer' intel iMacs.

edit: typo
 
dr_lha said:
Yes, I made an error, I meant "Mac OS" not "Mac OS X", and you're being pedantic. I edited my post above that you just quoted to correct it.
Much better. :D

Now we agree that yes, it's an upgrade in practice, but you can still pass on that older license to another machine because you put the new OS on the computer getting the upgrade. That makes it a full license. Upgrading to a new OS with an upgrade requires expendign that license on the upgraded computer in the "upgrade" sense of the word...for documentation on taht fact, check out Microsoft's upgrades. Your Win98 license is spent if you only buy the "upgarde" version of XP

However, that's *not* true of the OS that the comptuer originally shipped with. That license is non-transferrable.
 
DougTheImpaler said:
Now we agree that yes, it's an upgrade in practice, but you can still pass on that older license to another machine because you put the new OS on the computer getting the upgrade. That makes it a full license. Upgrading to a new OS with an upgrade requires expendign that license on the upgraded computer in the "upgrade" sense of the word...for documentation on taht fact, check out Microsoft's upgrades. Your Win98 license is spent if you only buy the "upgarde" version of XP
Actually, that's just a transferable upgrade license. A full license entitles you to install on an unlicensed computer. Microsoft doesn't make transferable upgrade licenses, so when you upgrade from 2000 to XP, both of those licenses are locked together.

Whether it's from OS 9 to 10.1 or to 10.4, or an upgrade from 10.3 to 10.4, it's still an upgrade arrangement. You can't install a copy of OS X on a bare, unlicensed computer--because Apple has never made such a computer.
 
matticus008 said:
Actually, that's just a transferable upgrade license. A full license entitles you to install on an unlicensed computer. Microsoft doesn't make transferable upgrade licenses, so when you upgrade from 2000 to XP, both of those licenses are locked together.

Whether it's from OS 9 to 10.1 or to 10.4, or an upgrade from 10.3 to 10.4, it's still an upgrade arrangement. You can't install a copy of OS X on a bare, unlicensed computer--because Apple has never made such a computer.
Not true...not even close to true. Software upgrades *always* imply that the original is required and that the original's license stay with that machine. To whit: when you got the 10.1 upgrade pack for $19.95 or whatever it was, you needed 10.0.x installed, or you needed to hack the disc *AND* your 10.0 license was spent on the machine getting the ugprade. If you paid $129 for 10.1, your 10.0 license was transferrable and 10.1 was a full install and could be installed on an empty hard drive. When you pay $129 (or whatever it is) you get a full new license and yoru old one is transferrable. Not a minute before.
 
DougTheImpaler said:
Not true...not even close to true. Software upgrades *always* imply that the original is required and that the original's license stay with that machine. To whit: when you got the 10.1 upgrade pack for $19.95 or whatever it was, you needed 10.0.x installed, or you needed to hack the disc *AND* your 10.0 license was spent on the machine getting the ugprade. If you paid $129 for 10.1, your 10.0 license was transferrable and 10.1 was a full install and could be installed on an empty hard drive. When you pay $129 (or whatever it is) you get a full new license and yoru old one is transferrable. Not a minute before.
I believe you're assuming the word "upgrade" means "upgrade" in the Microsoft sense, i.e. stringent checks that you already had the previous version of the OS on the machine. I assume Apple don't feel the need to make these checks as they don't have to worry that the person who's buying Tiger at retail didn't own a previous version of OS X.

Equally I expect with the appearance of OS X Intel boxed versions, that they will probably reintroduce these checks to get around the thorny issue of people thinking that a boxed Intel version of Mac OS X gives them a license to install it on a Dell. Mind you the fact that OS X won't install on a PC at all without significant hacking, should make it clear how legal it is to do so.
 
DougTheImpaler said:
Not true...not even close to true. Software upgrades *always* imply that the original is required and that the original's license stay with that machine. To whit: when you got the 10.1 upgrade pack for $19.95 or whatever it was, you needed 10.0.x installed, or you needed to hack the disc *AND* your 10.0 license was spent on the machine getting the ugprade. If you paid $129 for 10.1, your 10.0 license was transferrable and 10.1 was a full install and could be installed on an empty hard drive. When you pay $129 (or whatever it is) you get a full new license and yoru old one is transferrable. Not a minute before.
Nothing you said comes close to negating what I said. Your "always" statement only applies to Single Non-Transferable Upgrade licensing, which is the more common form. But it's not the form of Apple's OS X licensing.

A Transferable Upgrade License means that it can be moved to another computer when it is no longer in use. Because a license of Tiger can upgrade any computer, even one running OS 8.6 or 9, your existing Panther license is not needed in the chain, and you can use it on another computer once you own a Tiger license. Microsoft's licensing is not transferable, meaning that if you upgrade from 95 to 2000 to XP, all of those licenses are locked into a "stack."
 
The software upgrades that Apple released labeled as upgrades (10.0->10.1 and the $19.95 version of 10.x that are available in the up-to-date program for people that bought Macs the couple weeks before a new OS was released) ALWAYS require the older version's license to stay with the upgraded Mac. Read the EULA and forget Microsoft.

matticus008 said:
A Transferable Upgrade License means that it can be moved to another computer when it is no longer in use. Because a license of Tiger can upgrade any computer, even one running OS 8.6 or 9, your existing Panther license is not needed in the chain, and you can use it on another computer once you own a Tiger license. Microsoft's licensing is not transferable, meaning that if you upgrade from 95 to 2000 to XP, all of those licenses are locked into a "stack."

Actually what you said of Microsoft isn't applicable to retail boxed versions of Windows...only OEM ones, like the non-transferrable Windows that comes on an HP or Dell, much like the non-transferrable Mac OS that comes on a new Mac.

Not all Apple licenses are transferrable. Grey-disc OEM versiosn are not transferrable and you can't transfer a license if you get a step-up upgrade via Up-to-date or that 10.1 "free" upgrade.
 
Well, this debate could probably go on forever, but I think we can say one thing for sure:

Its not legal to install OS X on a Dell.
 
dr_lha said:
Well, this debate could probably go on forever, but I think we can say one thing for sure:

Its not legal to install OS X on a Dell.
Did someone say it was? I missed it if they did, and that much you and I can agree on, but it's because:

1.) Retail copies of OS X for x86 machines dont' exist
2.) The EULA says it goes on nothing but an Apple-branded computer

not because the OS is an "upgrade"

edit: people whining about the kernel going closed-source as a reaction to "hackers" or whining that Apple legal cracks down on people hacking OS X to install on generic hardware makes my blood boil BECAUSE they're whining about not being able to do something that's illegal. I think we can all unite in the fact that illegal is not kewl.
 
DougTheImpaler said:
Actually what you said of Microsoft isn't applicable to retail boxed versions of Windows...only OEM ones, like the non-transferrable Windows that comes on an HP or Dell, much like the non-transferrable Mac OS that comes on a new Mac.

Not all Apple licenses are transferrable. Grey-disc OEM versiosn are not transferrable and you can't transfer a license if you get a step-up upgrade via Up-to-date or that 10.1 "free" upgrade.
We're talking about retail copies in this discussion, not the restore discs and not the 10.0-10.1 booster license setup.

I'm not sure what you mean by the first part of your comment. Microsoft upgrade licenses are non-transferable, and the only upgrade licenses Microsoft sells are retail. There are no OEM upgrade licenses.
 
matticus008 said:
No, that's not true. One, you must agree to the Apple EULA to install the OS, and if you don't agree, you have no legal right to use the software.

No, the doctrine of first sale means you have the right to use the software even if you don't agree to the EULA.

Two, if a third-party installer removes the Apple EULA, that does not waive its protection and is, in fact, a felony. Under no circumstances is a third-party installer legal, and thanks to the DMCA and the (somewhat milder) EU counterpart legislation, installing and using such a cracked copy is a crime--not a civil matter, a crime.

No. The DMCA only applies to copy prevention and access prevention methods. It's been shot down when the use has been to try to go beyond simple copyright protections, such as the infamous Lexmark case. Installing a legal copy of Mac OS X on a PC does not constitute copyright infringment, and the use of a control mechanism to prevent that is not covered by the DMCA.

Bypassing any hardware or software security systems on a piece of software is a far greater concern than this quibble. Further, violation of the EULA is indeed a contract violation as you say, but use of OS X on unauthorized devices is copyright infringement.

No, it isn't copyright infringment. You have the right to use the software you bought and paid for. Look up the Doctrine of First Sale. Using the software you bought and paid for in a way counter to an EULA is, if the EULA was agreed to, a breach of contract at worst.
 
DougTheImpaler said:
Did someone say it was? I missed it if they did.
Yes someone did, which is what sparked off this particular argument!

It was the guy earlier in this thread who said something about "looking forward to installing OS X on a Thinkpad" or something.

here we go:

peharri said:
For whom? I guess I should be glad, once Leopard starts selling, someone will come up with an installer that allows it to run on beige boxes, so we can finally have a legal way of running Mac OS X on Thinkpads.
 
dr_lha said:
Which you must to to install the software.

No, you don't. You only need to agree to the EULA if you use an installer that requires you agree to the EULA before you install. That means Apple's. As Apple's installer doesn't work on a regular PC, you will not be using Apple's installer.

Honestly, I actually mentioned this entire process in the sentence after the one you quoted. Yet you're the one hurling insults (twice now), and you've yet to justify either insult. Can you knock it off and, at the very least, explain what you disagree with without bald-face ignoring the parts that answer your criticisms?
 
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